54fiftyfour: trazodone WD

[Ariel]

@54fiftyfour

Hello,

I'm sorry you're having such a difficult day. 

 

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

It's difficult to think that all this ends and a person can resist without doing nothing.

 

When we feel so bad it can be hard to believe that things will ever get better.

This is temporary. The symptoms will pass. WD does get better. 

 

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

On the other hand, I have been sleeping more (even six hours) for a few nights and I have much less motor agitation at dawn.

 

This sounds like a good thing! 

 

On 7/22/2022 at 12:49 PM, Shep said:

You're already seeing improvements and that speaks to healing. 

 

As Shep said, you're noticing improvements. 

Healing is happening, even when we don't consciously feel it. 

 

On 7/22/2022 at 12:49 PM, Shep said:

I would hold the clonazepam dose steady for a couple more weeks and then reassess what your next step should be. It's possible that tapering off psychiatric drugs and not trying to fix any symptoms with more drugs or treatments will bring you closer to healing from all of cumulative damage.  

 

Shep has given you some really good advice. 

 

It's not a matter of doing nothing, per se.

You are doing many things to help yourself: using SA; asking for support; following the moderators' advice; tracking your symptoms and noticing improvements.

These are all ways in which you are doing something to help yourself heal. This is not nothing. 

 

The "do nothing" part is specifically about "not trying to fix any symptoms with more drugs or treatments," as Shep says. 

It's about doing something else instead, for example using non-drug coping techniques and practicing patience and acceptance. 

I see that Shep has already shared many great links to help topics about this.

You might want to re-read earlier posts to revisit these resources. 

 

Remember these symptoms are temporary. They will pass. 

Healing is happening.

 

In solidarity and support,

A.

 

 

[Shep]

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

On the other hand, I have been sleeping more (even six hours) for a few nights and I have much less motor agitation at dawn.

 

This is really good to read, 54. To have this type of improved sleep coming from a destabilized state is major. This is a GOOD thing. 

 

It make take awhile for the improved sleep to result in other improvements and yes, other symptoms may temporarily increase, but that's not because something's gone wrong. It's because healing happens in a nonlinear fashion. 

 

16 minutes ago, Ariel said:

It's not a matter of doing nothing, per se.

You are doing many things to help yourself: using SA; asking for support; following the moderators' advice; tracking your symptoms and noticing improvements.

These are all ways in which you are doing something to help yourself heal. This is not nothing. 

 

The "do nothing" part is specifically about "not trying to fix any symptoms with more drugs or treatments," as Shep says. 

It's about doing something else instead, for example using non-drug coping techniques and practicing patience and acceptance. 

I see that Shep has already shared many great links to help topics about this.

You might want to re-read earlier posts to revisit these resources. 

 

Exactly - 54, you ARE doing something, as Ariel says. 

 

Please do re-read your earlier posts and look especially at the non-drug coping links. There are many linked on your thread. We do this for a reason - by the time you get through your taper and into recovery, these non-drug coping techniques will be strong enough that you'll be able to handle whatever stressors life brings your way. 

[54fiftyfour]

Thanks all for your encouragements. I hope you're right, becouse each person is a unique case and we can't know how long symptoms persist.

 

In 2009 I found great and immediate relief from anxiety, fear, depression and anedonia through testosterone, but now I believe it is not the same situation. I feel like I have reached the maximum peak of "ignition", more than that time. High doses of testosterone could be dangerous. Often, however, I have the feeling of not climb the summit alone.

 

Tomorrow morning I will have a consult with the psychiatrist who prescribed me clonazepam. I would like to know what she thinks. Anyway, considered the current "violence" of trazodone WD symptoms, I don't think it's the moment to taper yet. The levels of anxiety and fear are really too strong.   

[54fiftyfour]

I also suffer from irritabile bowel syndrome and bacterial imbalance in the gut. Every day I take probiotics, but it's not enaugh. Could this be a very negative factor for possible recover?

[54fiftyfour]

The psychiatrist, this morning, told me that the duration and intensity of WD symptoms are also influenced by the metabolism of each individual. The health of gut and liver, in her opinion, can be important. This can be a big problem for me. 

[Shep]

4 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I also suffer from irritabile bowel syndrome and bacterial imbalance in the gut. Every day I take probiotics, but it's not enaugh. Could this be a very negative factor for possible recover?

 

Please see:

 

Digestive problems: nausea, diarrhoea, bloating, GERD

 

You may want to go on an elimination diet to see which foods are triggering the symptoms: 

 

Elimination or exclusion diets for reactions to food (food intolerance)

[54fiftyfour]

Another day with tremendous symptoms. Extreme fatigue, breathlessness, confusion, headache, derealization, pins and needles everywhere, sexual impairment and an absolute inability to feel any emotion or interest, except than anxiety and depression. I don't want to sound whiny, bit it's inhuman to tolerate all this. I don't see any improvement, only stop for motor agitation in the morning. My whole life is slipping out of my hands. There is little that meditation or other non pharmacological methods can do when you are like that, also becouse I don't have the physical and mental strenght to do nothing. It's a miracle if I reach to cook something to eat.     

[54fiftyfour]

This morning, for the first time after four months, I woke up after eight hours of sleep (with two breaks)  without any motor agitation.

 

Main problems, however, was anxiety, social fear and depression. I'm not able to have positive thoughts for the future.

[Shep]

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I'm not able to have positive thoughts for the future.

 

 

Instead of "I'm not able to have positive thoughts," replace that with:

 

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

This morning, for the first time after four months, I woke up after eight hours of sleep (with two breaks)  without any motor agitation.

 

 

That's a very positive thought! It looks like you're stabilizing. It's a slow and nonlinear process, but you are doing better. Try to keep your thoughts on the good part. This helps with neuroplasticity. 

 

Healing from antidepressants. How to speed up the recovery process video (5 minutes)

 

[54fiftyfour]

Tomorrow I will reach the third week of stabilization on the clonazepam dosage of 0,5mg. at night and 0,2 in the morning. Could I start reducing by ten percent or is it too soon?

 

My trazodone WD symptoms (extreme anxiety, depression, sexual impairment, anedonia, insomnia, mental confusion, derealization, flu-malaise, etc.) are always very strong , with the exception of motor agitation which has subsides. I can have a few half days of "rest", but otherwise it's a terrible agony. I am also losing a lot of weight and this worries me a lot. Clonazepam helps with anxiety, but it's very depressing for me.

 

If I can start to reduce by ten per cent, should I do it both in the morning and in the evening dosage? Every month or every two weeks?

 

 

[Shep]

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Tomorrow I will reach the third week of stabilization on the clonazepam dosage of 0,5mg. at night and 0,2 in the morning. Could I start reducing by ten percent or is it too soon?

 

 

This is a great post that details what it feels like to be stabilized for withdrawal purposes:

Withdrawal Normal

 

Do you feel you're at withdrawal normal? 

 

How many hours are you sleeping each night? Will you be able to sleep if you remove the night time dose of clonazepam or do you only relax into sleep after you take it? 

 

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

My trazodone WD symptoms (extreme anxiety, depression, sexual impairment, anedonia, insomnia, mental confusion, derealization, flu-malaise, etc.) are always very strong , with the exception of motor agitation which has subsides. I can have a few half days of "rest", but otherwise it's a terrible agony. I am also losing a lot of weight and this worries me a lot. Clonazepam helps with anxiety, but it's very depressing for me.

 

 

Since you're still dealing with trazodone withdrawal, you may want to hold off tapering the clonazepam until you've recovered some from that withdrawal. While the clonazepam is a central nervous system depressant and can cause feelings of depression, if it's helping with sleep, you may want to hold and let the trazodone symptoms resolve more before taxing your nervous system with another taper. 

 

Please post your thoughts on this. 

[54fiftyfour]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

Do you feel you're at withdrawal normal? 

 

How many hours are you sleeping each night? Will you be able to sleep if you remove the night time dose of clonazepam or do you only relax into sleep after you take it? 

 

I feel really very ill. Surely worse than how the autor of the post describes for himself. I can sleep from three and half to five and half hours per night, with some few rare exception (six or more). When WD symptoms or cortisol levels are strong, clonazepam doesn't or little work.

 

1 hour ago, Shep said:

Since you're still dealing with trazodone withdrawal, you may want to hold off tapering the clonazepam until you've recovered some from that withdrawal. While the clonazepam is a central nervous system depressant and can cause feelings of depression, if it's helping with sleep, you may want to hold and let the trazodone symptoms resolve more before taxing your nervous system with another taper. 

 

I think clonazepam helps me more for anxiety (it's not cheap) than for sleeping. You're right, trazodone WD symptoms can immediately enhance if I start to reduce clonazepam, but how high is the risk to develope tolerance and being forced to increase the dosage? My psychiatrist suggested me to switch to valproic acid or valium, but I have kept your suggestions in mind. 

 

Trazodone WD symptoms (Cold Turkey!) are too strong,  will need years to mitigate and, anyway, I will never go back the same than before. Life (job, social relationships, affectivity, etc.) is already getting out of my hands. This is the future I see: pain, solitude, suffering and not being able to deal with life good or (expecially) bad events. It's absolutely not a desirable prospect and I don't know if I'll learn to deal with it as the author of the post.

 

[54fiftyfour]

There is another consideration to do about clonazepam. If I don't understand wrong what I read in the official studies on rats, it produces a downregulation of 5HT1a receptors in the brain. This downregulation is characteristic of the action of several SSRI antidepressants and, when persistent, is believed to be a probable cause of PSSD development and reinforcement. If so, I should not take that drug, having already a lot of problems with PSSD. It worries me a lot. From this point of view, it's like to take an SSRI. Any comment?

[Shep]

22 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

My psychiatrist suggested me to switch to valproic acid or valium, but I have kept your suggestions in mind. 

 

 

If you're feeling depression from the clonazepam, valium would likely be worse. Many people report that valium is more sedating and leads to feelings of depression, so a crossover to valium wouldn't be a good idea. 

 

22 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Trazodone WD symptoms (Cold Turkey!) are too strong,  will need years to mitigate and, anyway, I will never go back the same than before. Life (job, social relationships, affectivity, etc.) is already getting out of my hands. This is the future I see: pain, solitude, suffering and not being able to deal with life good or (expecially) bad events. It's absolutely not a desirable prospect and I don't know if I'll learn to deal with it as the author of the post.

 

There is a lot of catastrophic thinking in this post. If you're carrying around these thoughts all day, no wonder you're anxious and depressed. If you read through the Success Stories, one thing that stands out is how much stronger people are when they heal than they were before they became sick from withdrawal. In other words, yes, you will never go back to how you were before - you'll emerge much stronger and you'll go on to create newer and better memories than what you're dealing with now. The reason you can't see that now is because you're still stuck in the storm. 

 

But being able to visual healing, new job opportunities, and new friends (many of us find that we seek out healthier relationships when we're off these drugs) is a better path, don't you think? 

 

19 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

There is another consideration to do about clonazepam. If I don't understand wrong what I read in the official studies on rats, it produces a downregulation of 5HT1a receptors in the brain. This downregulation is characteristic of the action of several SSRI antidepressants and, when persistent, is believed to be a probable cause of PSSD development and reinforcement. If so, I should not take that drug, having already a lot of problems with PSSD. It worries me a lot. From this point of view, it's like to take an SSRI. Any comment?

 

The ship has sailed, 54. You're already dependent on the drug. I don't know what study you're referring to, but we see many recoveries from benzos.  Not only are there success stories here on SA,  but check out these on a very large benzo forum:

 

Benzo Buddies - Success Stories

 

And many of the people on that forum were on benzos for years, some for decades. And they still healed. 

 

Are you still having heart palpitations? Or has that symptom gotten better? 

 

[54fiftyfour]

19 hours ago, Shep said:

There is a lot of catastrophic thinking in this post. If you're carrying around these thoughts all day, no wonder you're anxious and depressed. If you read through the Success Stories, one thing that stands out is how much stronger people are when they heal than they were before they became sick from withdrawal. In other words, yes, you will never go back to how you were before - you'll emerge much stronger and you'll go on to create newer and better memories than what you're dealing with now. The reason you can't see that now is because you're still stuck in the storm. 

 

But being able to visual healing, new job opportunities, and new friends (many of us find that we seek out healthier relationships when we're off these drugs) is a better path, don't you think? 

 

Shep,

 

thank you for encouragement and understanding. Each of us, however, is a separate case.

 

First of all, I love my job, I don't want to change it and, over time, I have built a network of friendship with deep bonds of esteem and affect. People who are very worried for me right now. Yes, my anxiety levels depend also on my negative thoughts, but these are not unfounded. All recovery stories take years and are never complete.

 

Second, trazodone destroyed what's left of my sexuality (zero libido, erectile disfunction, total numbness, very little sperm production, pelvic pain, ecc.) and I am under no illusion that this strong form of PSSD can be reversible. If you read some post on PSSD Reddit, you can easily understand how bad that drug can be for sexuality. This is my worst greep. How can I imagine an entire life without emotional relationship with a woman? Do you know someone who recovered from so severe form of PSSD? I don't know any.

 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

19 hours ago, Shep said:

Are you still having heart palpitations? Or has that symptom gotten better? 

 

Heart palpitations are getting better, as the disappearance of electric shocks and motor agitation at dawn.

[54fiftyfour]

Third, my parents are elderly, I love them a lot and I'm very worried about losing them while I'm feeling this way, so unable to react to situations due to WD syndrome. My extreme anxiety levels also depend on this and don't help the process of recovery.

[Shep]

4 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Second, trazodone destroyed what's left of my sexuality (zero libido, erectile disfunction, total numbness, very little sperm production, pelvic pain, ecc.) and I am under no illusion that this strong form of PSSD can be reversible. If you read some post on PSSD Reddit, you can easily understand how bad that drug can be for sexuality. 

 

I would avoid Reddit. From Altostrata, the owner of this site:

 

On 4/30/2022 at 1:35 PM, Altostrata said:

Reddit is not a good source of drug withdrawal information. People claim all kinds of things.

 

On 3/21/2022 at 6:12 PM, Altostrata said:

People are also welcome to participate on reddit for their withdrawal support, just don't bring back reddit nonsense here.

 

You are still on a moderately high dose of a benzo. Clonazepam is an extremely potent benzo with a lot of side effects, including effects on the libido. So how much of your symptoms are related to coming off an antidepressant and how many are side effects of the benzo are unknown. 

 

The internet is full of good information and bad information. In the end, you'll need to figure out how to get through this and one way I found most helpful was to not take everything on the internet as truth and to try to feed the right wolf. Information is something we consume, just like we consume food. Don't feed the wrong wolf. This is a great story that explains:

 

The Story of Two Wolves

 

This is a part of our journey that we actually have control over - what information we take in and what we discard. 

 

4 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Do you know someone who recovered from so severe form of PSSD? I don't know any.

 

Yes, here are just a few examples:

 

Violets: Fully recovered from severe form of PSSD after two years

 

Success: Lossleader's recovery From Protracted Zoloft Withdrawal and PSSD

 

Djderek I had pssd!

 

 

4 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Third, my parents are elderly, I love them a lot and I'm very worried about losing them while I'm feeling this way, so unable to react to situations due to WD syndrome. My extreme anxiety levels also depend on this and don't help the process of recovery.

 

Try to work on non-drug coping skills such as mindfulness, gentle stretching or yoga, etc. that can help reduce anxiety.

 

Many of us find we have to act as if we're normal at times in order to keep our relationships as positive as possible. While this can be exhausting, it can also be in and of itself a powerful non-drug coping strategy because it signals the brain and nervous system that everything is going to turn out alright. It also helps prevent learned helplessness. 

 

Here are some more threads that may be helpful:

 

Acceptance and Hope

 

Helping family understand

 

4 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

 

Heart palpitations are getting better, as the disappearance of electric shocks and motor agitation at dawn.

 

This is a sign of resiliency. It's a great sign that you're stabilizing. 

 

Is your sleep improving? 

[54fiftyfour]

12 minutes ago, Shep said:

This is a sign of resiliency. It's a great sign that you're stabilizing. 

 

Is your sleep improving? 

 

My sleep is still variable, but better than a couple of months ago, when I couldn't reach 3 or 4 hours. As I said, I can sleep also for five hours and half or six, but it's not constant.

[54fiftyfour]

 

 

25 minutes ago, Shep said:

Sì, ecco solo alcuni esempi:

 

All the people who recovered were taking no drugs, as I'm doing. I believe to be one of the worst and complicated cases, becouse I must manage, at the same time, the violent symptoms of trazodone WD, the side effects of a potent ansiolitic drugs (that soon will give me tolerance) and a previous situation of PSSD which now has worsened. I had a strong epigenetic changes after paroxetine WD in 2008, with shrinkage and retraction of penis and loss of sensitivity. During time, I've never recovered my sexual capacity, only the mood. Certainly, in the past, situation was better than now. I could have a little excitement or some sexual intercourse with the help of drugs, but feeling little pleasure. Now I can't do nothing. I don't know where I find the strenght to go on.

[Shep]

43 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

 

My sleep is still variable, but better than a couple of months ago, when I couldn't reach 3 or 4 hours. As I said, I can sleep also for five hours and half or six, but it's not constant.

 

Another great sign that you're stabilizing.

 

18 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

All the people who recovered were taking no drugs, as I'm doing. 

 

That's the point of the success stories - to post your recovery AFTER you come off the drugs. People are in varying stages of recovery along the way. 

 

19 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I believe to be one of the worst and complicated cases,

 

I've given you all the information I can, 54. If you want to believe you're the worst and most complicated case, there's no reason to spend more time and energy trying to convince you of anything else. You've had some major improvements, but you dismiss the improvements. 

 

Do the best you can. 

[54fiftyfour]

Sorry Shep, don't misunderstand me. I was talking expecially about my PSSD (it's very hard), but I appreciate a lot your special support. I absolutely need it and I'm following every day your advices (i.e. clonazepam dosage or mindfulness). I don't ignore the improvements you're talking about and every thing you say. The fact is that I see a very long road in front of me and, probably, I am not ready to accept it yet, as I should do. That's the meaning of my words. Please, continue to follow me. I will try to concentrate on positive changes.

[Shep]

@54fiftyfourThank you, 54. We all understand your struggle. I'm glad you're going to try and focus on the positive changes. 

 

Please let us know how you're feeling and when you feel you've stabilized enough for tapering. There's no rush. The goal is to build a solid baseline before you taper. 

[Greatful]

@54fiftyfour

Hi, I just want to reach out to you and let you know you have it in you to take some control and get through this.

I so can relate to the panic and fear that drives us when we are in the throws of a real messed up CNS.

How can I do this, how long will this last, this is inhuman, how can anyone do this.  As you can see there are 100's of us out there.    Many of us have started out in you shoe.  Many of us are still in your shoes.  Plodding along.  Nobody know how long this will take for YOU to heal from this. Focus on your healing from this temporary brain injury.  Yes some do take a long time and some don't.  Try and reframe your thinking to you could be one of the ones that are going  recover sooner then later.  You never know, but each one of us can only take it one day at time.  That's how life works in everything, one day at a time. 

We have dig down deep and find out where we can draw strength from.   

Do you have support around you?  Remember you have support here.  Have you reach out to any other members? This can help you feel supported and that you are not alone.  It can even be encouraging to you also just by helping others.

 

Look for way to help you through this. 

 

Baylissa Frederick has a wonderful website to help you find more encouragement https://mccare.org/ clip on resources then web guide.  She also has a book Renewal and Recovery.  She is a protracted withdrawal survivor and  a therapist.   

 

Educate and learn about these drugs, take some control back into your hands.  I feel for you as you are just starting your journey and have yet to come to any sort of terms with it.  The incomprensible notion of what is happening to me, how could this happen will come and go as you learn more and slowly start realize that  

you are doing this, you have been everyday that you make it to your pillow. 

 

You can do this🌞

Your brain is healing every second of everyday🌞

[54fiftyfour]

16 hours ago, Greatful said:

Many of us are still in your shoes.  Plodding along.  Nobody know how long this will take for YOU to heal from this

Greatful,

 

thank you for your closeness, but what you say is not very comforting. Besides I have an immense sense of guilt: to err once is human, to persevere is diabolical. I have not contacted any members yet. Writing on the forum, sometimes, is very frustrating for me, although I really appreciate the support of Shep and others.

[Greatful]

@54fiftyfour

 

I don't want to discourage you, but give you encouragement to know that you can do this.  

You are going to be okay 54fiftyfour.  Remember to be kind to yourself.  You can heal from this. Who knows you may be one of the luckier ones who heal in a shorter length of  time. 

 

Take care of yourself🌞 

[54fiftyfour]

Update about my current situation.

 

Some physical symptoms have disappeared or significantly decreased: "electric" shocks from head to limbs, motor agitation, flu-like sensations, palpitations, wheezing or breathlesness, trembling.

 

Sleep is slightly improved. I can sleep at least five hours.

 

Strong neuro-emotional symptoms remains: anhedonia or inability to feel any pleasant thing, anxiety, fear, depression, desire to die, bursts of tears, derealization and stress/refusal to remember the good emotions of the past. I feel like a piece of my brain has been torn off and that symptoms will never go away. I'm afraid of everything and can't get excited for nothing.

 

I would like to start slowly reducing clonazepam. Especially in the morning (0,2 mg.), it makes me stoned, depressed and "stammering", as well as making my sexual problems worse. This is very discomforting. I don't know, however, if it's time to risk.

[Shep]

19 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I would like to start slowly reducing clonazepam. Especially in the morning (0,2 mg.), it makes me stoned, depressed and "stammering", as well as making my sexual problems worse. This is very discomforting. I don't know, however, if it's time to risk.

 

Since your sleep is improving, you may be okay reducing a tiny bit of the morning clonazepam. It sounds like you're getting hit with side effects, in addition to withdrawal. 

 

You may want to try the The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering.

 

This involves small weekly reductions instead of one larger monthly reduction. You may want to start out with a 2 - 5% reduction, much less than the standard 10% reduction, to test how sensitive you are to reductions.

 

Another option would be to wait a couple more weeks and see if you stabilize more. I would suggest waiting a bit longer to see if you're on an upward trajectory and can build a more solid baseline before you start reducing. 

 

Please let us know what you think. 

[54fiftyfour]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:29 PM, Shep said:

Another option would be to wait a couple more weeks and see if you stabilize more. I would suggest waiting a bit longer to see if you're on an upward trajectory and can build a more solid baseline before you start reducing.

 

Frankly I don't think to be on an upward trajectory from trazodone WD. Certainly some initial physical symptoms, as I said, have disappeared. You're right to suggest to reach a more solid baseline before reducing clonazepam, but please keep in mind that it gives me too depressive and dysarthria side effects during the day. This scares me.

 

On 8/12/2022 at 12:29 PM, Shep said:

Since your sleep is improving, you may be okay reducing a tiny bit of the morning clonazepam. It sounds like you're getting hit with side effects, in addition to withdrawal. 

 

This morning, using a graduated cyllinder, I started reducing the dose by ten per cent (0,18 mg. instead of 0,2 mg.). It's a little dose, I hope this reduction is non dangerous. Should I have to continue for a full month? And if I start to feel WD symptoms from clonazepam (trembling, agitation, anxiety, headache, fits, etc.), how should I manage them? I confess to hate this drug and would get rid of it as soon as possible, but I know I don't have to think so.

 

On 8/12/2022 at 12:29 PM, Shep said:

You may want to try the The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering.

 

I've read the Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering and I'm thinking to apply it to the night dosage. My reasoning is to reduce the overall daily dosage (0,7 mg.) by ten per cent per month, before developing tolerance to the drug and be forced to increase the dosage. So tonight I should take, for example, 0,475 mg. instead of 0,5 mg. for two weeks and then 0,45 mg. instead of 0,5 mg. for another two weeks.

 

Just a question: when and how do benzodiazepine WD symptoms make themselves felt? I confess I'm terrified...

[Shep]

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

This morning, using a graduated cyllinder, I started reducing the dose by ten per cent (0,18 mg. instead of 0,2 mg.). It's a little dose, I hope this reduction is non dangerous. Should I have to continue for a full month? And if I start to feel WD symptoms from clonazepam (trembling, agitation, anxiety, headache, fits, etc.), how should I manage them? I confess to hate this drug and would get rid of it as soon as possible, but I know I don't have to think so.

 

If you're reducing the morning dose from 0.2 mg to 0.18 mg, since your total daily dose was 0.7 mg (0.2 mg morning and 0.5 mg evening), then this total reduction is only 3% of your total daily dose.

 

0.18 mg + 0.5 mg = 0.68 mg

0.68 mg /0 .7 mg = .97 or 97%

100% - 97% = 3% reduction

 

Please note that a 10% reduction comes from your total daily dose.

 

I would hold for a few weeks and see how you feel before making another reduction. Because you're still having symptoms, I wouldn't push your nervous system to get off this drug too quickly. While side effects are uncomfortable, withdrawal effects can be equally uncomfortable or even worse. If you feel better with a 3% reduction, then you'll know that you're dealing with side effects as opposed to withdrawal effects. If that's the case, then you may want to go with a larger reduction next month. But I would wait to see if that's the case. It's much easier to speed up later on than to deal with a crash now. 

 

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I've read the Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering and I'm thinking to apply it to the night dosage. My reasoning is to reduce the overall daily dosage (0,7 mg.) by ten per cent per month, before developing tolerance to the drug and be forced to increase the dosage. So tonight I should take, for example, 0,475 mg. instead of 0,5 mg. for two weeks and then 0,45 mg. instead of 0,5 mg. for another two weeks.

 

Please hold, 54. You're already dependent on the drug. There are many people who go for decades on the same dose of a benzo with no need to increase. I wouldn't take the concept of benzo tolerance and blow it out of proportion. 

 

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Just a question: when and how do benzodiazepine WD symptoms make themselves felt? I confess I'm terrified...

 

It's really individual. Some people may feel them right away, as is the case with inter-dose withdrawal with the short-acting benzos. Some people may not feel them for a few days. 

 

If you're worrying yourself into an anxiety spiral, then that's something you have some control over. 

 

This is a great thread to read to figure out ways not to go down into a spiral due to these kinds of anxious thoughts:

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

 

When you're dealing with anticipatory fears, it's a secondary fear -  the "what if" fears. And that's very common during withdrawal. 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes comes highly recommended for helping people learn how to manage and cope with anxiety, anticipatory anxiety, and second fear. This is a great short video on acceptance without adding "second fear":

 

Dr. Claire Weekes: How to accept the physical symptoms of nervous illness video (1.5 minutes)

 

And you can find loads more out there on YouTube by googling Dr. Claire Weekes. 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes - How To Recover 01  video 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes - How To Recover (part 2). video 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes - How To Recover 03. video 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes - How To Recover (part 4) video 

 

She's from back in the day and may come across as old fashioned in today's world, but her insights are brilliant and have helped many people on the forum.

 

Another great one to check out is Eckhart Tolle. 

 

How to Reduce Anxiety and Fear | Eckhart Tolle 20 Minute Compilation video 

 

This is a great article on "second fear":

 

The Anxiety Monster Feeds on Second Fear

 

The author quotes Dr. Weekes:

 

Quote

Dr. Weekes advises this: watch the fear go up and down. Ride it like a roller coaster. As long as you don’t prolong it by adding second fear, you’ll be reining it in within five minutes–the length of time it takes for adrenaline to fade–give or take.

 

Learning breathing techniques can also be helpful. Here is a good one to start off with: 

 

The Breathing Space by Jon Kabat Zinn video (4 minutes)

 

Another way to deal with "second fear" and anticipatory anxiety is to settle into a mode of acceptance, knowing that you WILL survive this, as well as building up an arsenal of non-drug coping skills that will serve you well long after withdrawal. 

 

Acceptance and Hope

 

Instead of worrying about the "what if's," why not start planning some things to do once you've healed? That will keep the busy mind occupied with positive, hopeful thoughts that will calm your nervous system instead of keeping it stressed with negative worries. 

[54fiftyfour]

Thanks for Claire Weekes' videos, they can be very useful for me. I surely suffer from anticipatory anxiety, other than WD symptoms.

 

Shep, I understand your point of view and the fact that you would protect me from further WD symptoms from benzos. The problem with clonazepam, however, is that I clearly perceive it's not a good drug for me. I mean that I had more "costs" than benefits. Even with sleeping, I think it has never been so useful and my slight improvements are more spontaneus, than dependent from the drug. Often there are also paradoxical effects, as I said. 

 

This is the reason for which I would like to start reducing at least ten per cent. I also must be sincere and confess that it's still difficult, for me, to accept to be under this drug for years, becouse the time of tapering that you recommend for reducing risky is very long before arrive to zero. I have more problems and very poor benefits from clonazepam, this is the matter. 

 

I'm not in a easy situation, I know. I'm following your advice and not reducing the night dosage at least for this week, then we can update, but I feel I'm prolonging the dependance from a bad drug. 

 

Regarding my thoughts for the future, I only desire to come back to my "past" life with less engagements. I love my job and my friendship, don't ask more. Certainly this very bad experience change some way to think about the future. Nothing can be the same than before.

[54fiftyfour]

Yesterday it has been proposed me the acupuncture to calm (not to simulate) my nervous system. Can someone give me an opinion? Can it help?

[Ariel]

Hello @54fiftyfour

Nice to "meet" you. 

 

There are a few topics related to acupuncture, perhaps worth a read/review?

 

 

 

 

Best wishes to you on your continuous healing journey,

A.

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you, Ariel.

[54fiftyfour]

Small update for this week, after the reduction from 0,2 to 0,18 mg. of clonazepam in the morning and maintenance of the 0,5 mg. dose overnight.

 

The only positive thing is that I managed to sleep more than seven hours a night three days a week and at least six hours this night. All this was unthinkable three months ago.

 

Symptoms from trazodone WD did not change in the first four days. In the last three days I feel a slight headhache and a little increase in morning and daily anxiety, but it is difficult to say if it depends from variation of dosage or my thoughts about the future (expecially for anhedonia and sexual impairment).

 

I'm on my usual vacation place and try to behave normally (go a couple of hours to the sea sheltered from the sun, frequent tourist places with hat and sunglasses, meet family members, etc.). I don't know if this is the right behaviour, but the prospect of staying all the day in bed and brooding on my problems make me feel worse. Certainly, during days, there are many moments of severe depression, undelrlying anxiety and chronic fatigue. I can't wait for the night to come having some peace.

 

I started to take half a teaspoon of magnesium carbonate and would like to try acupuncture to calm the sympathetic nervous system.

 

Please, I would be grateful if you can give me some comment and advice. 

[ChessieCat]

There is a topic about acupuncture.

 

Acupuncture - Posts #6 & #8 (not detox or stimulation)