54fiftyfour: trazodone WD

[54fiftyfour]

14 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

It's very difficult, for me, to taper clonazepam, may be Valium drops can be easier.

 

Maybe I could just trying to start with replacing only the current morning dose of clonazepam (0,3 drops) with an equivalent dose of diazepam (3 drops).

 

Just a theoretical question (I'm aware of the risks). Diazepam has a longer half-life than clonazepam. If I only took it in the night at the equivalent dosage of 0,33 mg. of clonazepam, would it cover the next day without the need of the morning dose? After all, my current morning dose of Rivotril is small: 0.03 mg. of clonazepam should equal 0.6 mg. of diazepam, i.e. 3 drops. Right? Could I possibly take them all in the night (33 drops), taking advantage of the longer half-life of diazepam? It's just theoretical.

[Shep]

2 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

 

Maybe I could just trying to start with replacing only the current morning dose of clonazepam (0,3 drops) with an equivalent dose of diazepam (3 drops).

 

Just a theoretical question (I'm aware of the risks). Diazepam has a longer half-life than clonazepam. If I only took it in the night at the equivalent dosage of 0,33 mg. of clonazepam, would it cover the next day without the need of the morning dose? After all, my current morning dose of Rivotril is small: 0.03 mg. of clonazepam should equal 0.6 mg. of diazepam, i.e. 3 drops. Right? Could I possibly take them all in the night (33 drops), taking advantage of the longer half-life of diazepam? It's just theoretical.

 

I don't know if this is a good idea or not, 54. If you're really dealing with a too-fast taper off Rivotril, trying to fix that by crossing over to diazepam may not be the right thing to do. You'll be rapid tapering off the Rivotril to get over to the diazepam. The diazepam may or may not cover the Rivotril withdrawal. 

 

But yes, the half-life of diazepam (at 200 hours, which is 8 days), means you only need to dose once a day. 

 

Rivotril / clonazepam is equivalent to 20 times 1 mg of diazepam. So your dose of 0.03 mg clonazepam would equal .6 mg diazepam. Your math is correct. 

[54fiftyfour]

I'm continuing ti keep the dosage stable l've been on since May, 15th (0,03 in the morning and 0,3 in the night). I then try to reduce it very little (0,028 and 0,0267), but the symptoms were too strong and so I returned at 0,33 mg.

 

Situation is the same. Some days I can't move from bed, I have agitation and akathisia and want to move continuously. The "news" is that, during the night, I struggle to sleep and have heart palpitations. During the day, breathing is labored.

 

Should I still wait? Up the dosage? I wouldn't do it, clonazepam makes me feel very ill.

 

 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

I think to have reached a point of not return. I'm not able to manage the situation anymore. Clonazepam (and the rest of drugs) have destroyed me. I'm on bed most part of the days and in an intolerable state of agitated depression. I have one hundred of symptoms. Not able to think, sometime. At this point, I can't do nothing than being helped by some social operator and holding the current dose of Rivotril. Or should I updose?

[Shep]

On 6/10/2023 at 6:07 PM, 54fiftyfour said:

Yes, I think you're right, Shep. The symptoms of abstinence are now worse than the "usual" side effects. They were very strong, with burning skin symptoms, during the last two-three weeks. Now I'm on 0,03+0,3 mg. again.

 

You said your withdrawal symptoms were worse than the side effects on June 10, but according to your signature, you made another reduction. And now you're feeling even worse. Do you still feel the abstinence symptoms are worse than the side effects? 

 

If so, you could updose to where you were before your reduction on June 10, but I wouldn't experiment a lot with the dose because that can lead to worsening any kindling that may be going on. 

 

[54fiftyfour]

The dose of June, 10 was 0,33. I didn't taper anymore, but I feel horrible. It's two days that I tried 0,04 in the morning (+0,30 in the night), but it doesn't help and seems to make things worsen. I don't know what to do. It's really awful. Clonazepam is too addictive, it's impossible to taper.

[54fiftyfour]

Hi all,

situation is the same. I'm imprisoned on the dosage of 0,3 mg. in the night and 0,03 mg. in the morning. The symptoms vary for intensity and type. Burning skin and shortness of breath are still present, but a little less strong in the last days. Depression and fatigue are very potent and I often have difficulty to stand up. Other days I'm very agitated.

I am not able to evaluate how much it depends on the interdose withdrawals, on the general taper I did during this months or on the simple fact of taking a molecule, clonazepam, too powerful and damaging for me. I'm sure of one thing: clonazepam is giving me many sexual side effects, especially on the pudendal nerve. I'm also having a lot of trouble in tapering it. Every slightest reduction devastates me, as well as take it every day. I'm in a "poop" situation. Walking aroung, I have to lean against the walls.

 

I can't go on like this. I know the risks, but I'm thinking about trying to switch to valium. I'm thinking to do it very, very slowly, possibly to reach only one dose per day. Is there only one chance that diazepam can be less damaging for me? Could it theoretically cover all the day, without morning dose? Do you have any suggestions on times and methods?

[54fiftyfour]

For a week now, clonazepam has been giving me big problems at night. After taking it in the night, in fact, I begin to feel symptoms of severe irritation of the nerves throughout all my body, as if I had insects crawling under my skin, contracting my limbs and forcing me to move them continuously. Of course I don't sleep and I wake up exhausted. What can it be? The toxicity of the drug? Is it possible that Rivotril makes my neuropathy get worse? I won't repeat once again how bad this drug makes me feel, but the more time passes, the worse it gets. Shep, you always advise against an eventual drug change, but how is it possible to go on like this?Please, give me some advice or interpretation about this new adverse reaction.

[Shep]

3 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

After taking it in the night, in fact, I begin to feel symptoms of severe irritation of the nerves throughout all my body, as if I had insects crawling under my skin, contracting my limbs and forcing me to move them continuously.

 

This sounds like what many people describe as "inner vibrations." This seems to be something that's more noticeable at night because that's when you're trying to be quiet and still in order to sleep. You won't notice it as much during the day if you're up and moving around. 

 

Are you currently using magnesium? That can sometimes help. And some people have found weighted blankets to be helpful.

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

Weighted blankets & bed tents for restlessness, akathisia, insomnia, and anxiety

 

3 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

What can it be? The toxicity of the drug? Is it possible that Rivotril makes my neuropathy get worse? I won't repeat once again how bad this drug makes me feel, but the more time passes, the worse it gets.

 

If it were the toxicity of the drug, you would feel better as you reduce, not worse. 

 

You may be dealing with hypersensitivity and kindling, which may make you more sensitive to this drug and more likely to hyper-react to this drug, but tapering too quickly is likely to make the hyper-sensitivity worse. 

 

 

[Shep]

4 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

For a week now, clonazepam has been giving me big problems at night.

 

I forgot to ask in my previous post, when was your last reduction? Was it June 10th (what you have last listed in your signature)? 

[54fiftyfour]

No, I'm at 0,0275 in the morning now. Yes, I know. I should hold, but I feel so sick under this drug. It's terrible. Anyway I feel a lot of kindling, but what's the alternative? Take it forever?

[54fiftyfour]

I tried half a teaspoon of magnesium several times in the morning, without any significative result. May be I can try before sleeping, but I think that my problem is the high level of kindling. What can I do to reduce it? Only waiting and taking clonazepam forvyears? I'm suicidal and feel that can not resist for long. 

[Catina7]

I've been reading through your thread and I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am for all the suffering you're going through.  Shep and the other mods have been amazing in all their great help and advice.  They're trying their best to help you in this horrible situation.  

 

Maybe you can try the magnesium before sleeping to see if that will help you.  

 

Even though it may not help much, please know I'm thinking of you and sending you hugs.  ❤️

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you, Catina. You're right, Shep is fantastic.

[Shep]

On 6/10/2023 at 6:07 PM, 54fiftyfour said:

Yes, I think you're right, Shep. The symptoms of abstinence are now worse than the "usual" side effects. They were very strong, with burning skin symptoms, during the last two-three weeks. Now I'm on 0,03+0,3 mg. again.

 

On 7/12/2023 at 3:16 AM, 54fiftyfour said:

For a week now, clonazepam has been giving me big problems at night.

 

Last month, we discussed the fact that your withdrawal (abstinence) symptoms are worse than the side effects. And then you tapered again a little over a week ago and are even worse. 

 

23 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Yes, I know. I should hold, but I feel so sick under this drug. It's terrible. Anyway I feel a lot of kindling, but what's the alternative? Take it forever?

 

You seem to be caught in this black and white thinking that you either soldier on through a mandatory monthly reduction or you have to stay on this drug forever. There is a middle ground - longer holds and smaller reductions.

 

What you're doing now is making you worse.  I do get the predicament you're in because once you're this sick from the drug, it's a chronic illness that even at the lower levels is still a difficult weight to carry.

 

But I hope you don't force yourself to taper more than your nervous system can handle. Even after your off this drug, the recovery process is likely to be lengthy and the more damage you do by tapering too quickly is damage that still has to be recovered from, which can cause your recovery to go on longer even after you're off this drug. 

 

Wish there was more we can do, 54, but I would urge you to take a break from tapering and see if a longer hold can help. 

[54fiftyfour]

Yes, I understand. My level of comatose depression, anhedonia and anxiety is incredibly high. It's not human. I don't know how I will be able to manage it. Thank you for all, Shep.

[Catina7]

Hello @54fiftyfour,  I know you feel completely helpless, discouraged, and damaged but there is actually a lot you can do to help yourself endure. The more coping mechanisms we have the better off we'll be.  Try your best, I know it's hard.  Sending you hugs today.

 

Symptoms and Self-Care:  https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forum/8-symptoms-and-self-care/

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you. I wonder how I would be now, if I had resisted after the trazodone withdrawal without taking the poison of clonazepam. I probably would be more functional and less depressed and anxious. Clonazepam didn't help and only aggravante the hell, carrying it forward over the years.

[Catina7]

19 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Thank you. I wonder how I would be now, if I had resisted after the trazodone withdrawal without taking the poison of clonazepam. I probably would be more functional and less depressed and anxious. Clonazepam didn't help and only aggravante the hell, carrying it forward over the years.

 

I know, but thinking about those things is only going to make you feel worse.  You are unfortunately in this awful situation....BUT....you can accept your circumstances as best as you can and move forward.  As long as you keep your nervous system as stable as possible you will feel better.  Hang in there!  

[54fiftyfour]

My level of comatose depression is now very, very dangerous. I'm really suicidal. It alternates or mixes with agitation, anxiety and internal terror. I should call it a total shutdown of brain and body functions. Simply I can't think and stand. How is it possible that the solution is to continue to take the same doses of clonazepam, if they make feel me so near to death? Why should I continue to depress my nervous system, untill I become unable to move? Is there a hope that things change with time? I don't see how.

[Catina7]

1 hour ago, 54fiftyfour said:

My level of comatose depression is now very, very dangerous. I'm really suicidal. It alternates or mixes with agitation, anxiety and internal terror. I should call it a total shutdown of brain and body functions. Simply I can't think and stand. How is it possible that the solution is to continue to take the same doses of clonazepam, if they make feel me so near to death? Why should I continue to depress my nervous system, untill I become unable to move? Is there a hope that things change with time? I don't see how.

 

Thank you for the update, although I'm so sorry you're still suffering the way that you are.   It's hard to know what to do sometimes as far as making any changes, but maybe you can go back and re-read the advice that the mods have given you.  I know it's hard to keep fighting every single day, but I'm proud of you for hanging in there as best as you can.  🌺

[Catina7]

@54fiftyfour...for you:  

 

 

 

[Catina7]

Samaritans - ONLUS
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Contact by: Face to Face http://www.suicide.org/images/check-mark.gif - Phone http://www.suicide.org/images/check-mark.gif
Hotline: 800 86 00 22
Hotline: Face to face by appointment only
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Hours:
    Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun: 13:00 - 22:00

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Contact by: - Phone http://www.suicide.org/images/check-mark.gif
Hotline: 199 284 284
Website: telefonoamico.it

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you for support, I need it, but I also need to have a strategy in order to survive. Even if I stop to taper, I'm not able to manage symptoms becouse they're too strong. Clonazepam is killing my brain and body functions day by day. I have too much difficulties to take it and resist.

[Catina7]

4 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Thank you for support, I need it, but I also need to have a strategy in order to survive. Even if I stop to taper, I'm not able to manage symptoms becouse they're too strong. Clonazepam is killing my brain and body functions day by day. I have too much difficulties to take it and resist.

 

You're welcome my friend.  I hope you can find the best strategy for yourself so as to make life bearable.  Please continue to keep us updated. 

[54fiftyfour]

Yesterday a neurologist adviced me to take low dose of propranolol against akathisia, anxiety and psycho-motor agitation. I told him that I am under clonazepam therapy and he said that's not important and propranolol can also help to speed clonazepam taper. I have my doubts, but I need some kind of help becouse, at this point, I'm not able to manage all this agitated depression with hundred of symptoms. What do you think about propranolol? Can it help with anxiety and agitation? Are there bad interactions with clonazepam? Is it addictive or dangerous?

[Shep]

27 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I told him that I am under clonazepam therapy and he said that's not important and propranolol can also help to speed clonazepam taper. I have my doubts, but I need some kind of help becouse, at this point, I'm not able to manage all this agitated depression with hundred of symptoms. What do you think about propranolol?

 

We don't recommend adding in more drugs to "speed" up a taper, especially sedating drugs which may lead to paradoxical reactions.

 

We recommend a slow taper and holding when your symptoms get worse. Why is your doctor wanting to speed up your taper? 

 

28 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Are there bad interactions with clonazepam?

 

Please add your drugs to this drug interaction checker:

 

Drug Interaction Checker

 

29 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Is it addictive or dangerous?

 

It can cause dependency and will need to be tapered.

 

Tips for tapering off propranolol

 

[54fiftyfour]

Yes, but can it really help with agitation and anxiety symptoms?

[Shep]

I don't know, 54. If you want to take more drugs, you really need to get your advice from your doctor, not an online forum. All we can do is give you tapering information. 

[54fiftyfour]

This nightmare will not end anymore. Probably I'll have to take an antibiotic for a painfull testicles' infection. I'm waiting the results of a screening and don't know which kind of antibiotic. Maybe doxicycline, but I'm not sure. Please, which are the most dangerous antibiotics for my nervous system? I'm so afraid to worse my terrible situation...

[Catina7]

Hey there!  I'm sorry you're still struggling.  Here's a link that talks about antibiotics:

 

Antibiotics

[Shep]

16 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

This nightmare will not end anymore. Probably I'll have to take an antibiotic for a painfull testicles' infection. I'm waiting the results of a screening and don't know which kind of antibiotic. Maybe doxicycline, but I'm not sure. Please, which are the most dangerous antibiotics for my nervous system? I'm so afraid to worse my terrible situation...

 

@54fiftyfourAs you'll see noted in the link that @Catina7 posted, there are a lot of warnings about fluoroquinolone antibiotics. 

 

This is really important for people on benzos - the class of antibiotics known as fluoroquinolones are dangerous for people who are taking benzos because they displace benzodiazepines from their binding sites on GABA-receptors. Here is a list of fluoroquinolone antibiotics to avoid if possible - Fluoroquinolone antibiotics. 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

My symptoms of depression are increasing at a really devastating level. Today I am not able to talk and my face is completely contracted. Are there some not pharmacological ways for managing this symptoms? They are very, very invalidating.

[Catina7]

1 hour ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Today I am not able to talk and my face is completely contracted

 

Hello @54fiftyfour.  I'm sorry to hear you're still struggling.  I found the closest link I could find that talks about what you might be dealing with.  I'll look around some more to see if there is anything else I can find.

 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you a lot, but I didn't mean this. My urgent problem is the unmanageable level of depression. It's a coma. I think it will never go away.

[Catina7]

1 hour ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Thank you a lot, but I didn't mean this. My urgent problem is the unmanageable level of depression. It's a coma. I think it will never go away.

 

Okay.  Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you were saying!  Depression is hard, I know, but continue to hang in there as best as you can.