☼ Cymbaltawithdrawal5600: Introduction

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Darn, can't put this in the Media section because it is not related to ADs but I am shocked at what this study found:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

 

It relates to what I posted above, my new morning exercise routine.

 

Those people exercise SEVEN hours a day???????? That is a full time job!! (I'm only doing 2)

 

It kind of explains why I could not lose much weight last summer. Oh dear, I fear I am screwed..... doomed to pudge without severe hardship. It's not the weight gain from ADs nor advancing age per se but the effects of a lowered metabolic rate.

 

Link to the study findings:

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.21538/full

 

Exploring exercise 'high':

 

http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/how-to-achieve-a-runners-high

 

There's those endocannabinoids again, I looked them up once for a subsequently deleted post. If I can get my butt to stop hurting, maybe I'll get some.

[Altostrata]

Would be good for Off-Topic. It was a fascinating article.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

The article was fascinating and eminently readable too (for a scientific article). But I think I will leave the mention of it here in my topic because there are some things I want to talk about that may only pertain to my situation and experience of AD withdrawal (and also the fact that I cannot follow a discussion in Off Topic without logging in. I often read the site on my tablet and logging in on it is a hassle, fat fingers ya know.)

 

This may be a long post so there's your warning.

 

I have always been a 'fit' person: I can jump into an activity and carry it out with only some 'unused muscle soreness' afterwards. Seldom have I ever had to abandon an activity because I could not do it except if it involves sustained activity at maximum capacity for more than a few seconds. Last week I decided to start riding my bike again after not getting on it all season (we call 'winter' here 'season' because that's when we get all the tourists.) I looked in my 'Lose It' food/weight/exercise tracker and I quit logging Nov.2 and in fact stopped all outdoor activity and going to the gym for zumba class too, really because it started taking an hour to get off the island because of all the traffic. I have asked a few people if they also get the 'hibernation' thing going on in the winter too and some say yes. To me its a feeling that I don't want to go outside when there are more people around, at least I think that's it, and it's just weird. I much prefer going out when it's hot outside to ride my bike, there's something about the heat that does it for me.

 

The one thing that reliably gives me a feeling of 'anticipation' is something you'd call 'bad': whenever I think about getting my special thermal 32 oz. drink cup filled with diet coke at the convenience store and sipping it throughout the day I get that anticipatory feeling of pleasure in the pit of my stomach. It's not quite the same getting it out of the bottle from the fridge, it has to come from the soda machine. So I got the bright idea to combine that with the bike riding. The store is 5.7 miles from my house so I saddled up and took off last Tuesday. Took me 50 minutes and was doable even after 6 months of sitting in my chair all day. I had just realized that morning that my 'fat' shorts were getting a bit too snug so it was time to get moving. I had already decided that if I were to begin the diet and exercise thing again that I would not do the 1200 cal/day because that left me feeling too hungry all the time (and from reading yesterday's article now I know why.) I don't want to take the chance that it could trigger wd syndrome again and supposedly women will retain weight if their calorie intake drops below 1200/day. I am not going to count the calories too closely at the present time.

 

So last year I had my first exposure to the metabolic adaptation that the article talks about. Could not get below 150 lbs and my weight stayed the same for a month even as my caloric intake was at minimum and my exercise level increased. It was not until I started the zumba class did it start dropping again. But for some reason, I don't feel like going to the gym, I have a black friday membership that I have not activated yet, I'd rather be outside in the heat. I happened to mention to a church friend (who is a rider) before she left for the summer that I find exercise (incl bike riding) extremely boring and she said that is all too common amongst distance riders. Wow, thought it was just me! Then why do it? For the 'endorphin rush' she said. I've never had that,always wondered what it feels like (I'll leave it to you for the research, it is not quite a done deal that that is what really happens in the brain. It may be related to dopamine and norepinephrine levels instead, they know that blood circulating endorphins don't cross the bbb, they theorize endorphins may be synthesized in the brain instead and may account for the body's response of release of them during stress or injury to help you cope with pain. You have to autopsy or spinal tap to see if it is really endorphins that are doing the 'rush' and that's a bit problematic at present.)

 

So to google for how to cope with boredom during riding and the sore butt. Listen to music, look at the scenery, count things, all yawn inducing stuff for a nerdy girl more at home with her computers. Thought about trying to compose an email while riding but google voice only works if you are network connected and I get crappy service when I leave the radius of my Airave device for my phone (my cell-tower-in-the-house.) I have some 350 tracks in my cell ph and stupid shuffle seems to always want to play the same things over and over. But I was looking and spied my recording of 'The Prophet' yesterday and was thrilled. Got to my destination just as it ended. Not bored yesterday at all. But I will be should I try to listen to it every day, I know me.

 

The butt thing won't be so easy. I have a cruiser bike, can't do the lean-over-the-handlebars kind because the pressure on my long ago cervical disk herniation makes my hands go numb. But parking 150 pounds on a bike seat for 2 hours is not a good thing either. On day 2 last week I went to the bike store and got a fake sheepskin cover with a 3 inch piece of wimpy foam inside and it was flat as a rock by the time I got home. Found a 4 inch piece of 'really resistant to compression' foam at the thrift store the next day and although it is not compressed so much it is still like sitting on a rock. It's the pressure on the 'ischial tuberosities' that hurts (those butt bones), fortunately not anything numbing my lady bits. That's how I found out about the 'Biggest Loser' study, by looking at bike seat recommendations. Since I won't be able to remove the sitting pressure because of my choice of bike, I might have to go for a wide load tractor type seat (all the old people here seem to favor them) and spread the pain out. Though the pain and the boredom are big minuses, I may be reaping some of the benefits of sustained exercise and concomitant endorphin release. You have to look at the articles to see what I mean, there is (I guess) a delicate balance between how much pain and stress endured during exercise that triggers the endorphin release and I guess not everyone gets it. And the 'rhythmicity' of the activity seems to be a key factor: rowing, running, cycling seem to work best.

 

So back to the weight loss thing. I think I'll make a new post for that because it is something I have synthesized from my reading and deep thinking on the subject as a survivor of PAWS that I think will be of interest to some on this board. Lots of us have gained weight as a result of the drugs and just yesterday I spied a post by someone about this very thing. You've got to get through the 4 to 5 years of recovery first before you can even think about doing something about weight, in my opinion. Maybe longer if your recovery is taking longer and you have other health problems besides. Many really underestimate how much the body has to go through 'normalize' after the chemical assault is done and healing begins. You are healing too as the drugs are withdrawn (in the case of those who taper) but you are also adapting to reduced levels of the drug at the same time. It's all a process and takes an inordinately long time. But I am still pleasantly surprised at how much I have healed in these 4 years after cold turkey and I have my theories why this is so. I've talked about them before but there does not seem to be much interest here, there's more interest (judging by the postings) on finding a food, supplement or drug instead. To me that just causes the body to have to adapt to another strange chemical while it is trying to figure out how to right itself by those determined to get off the drugs rapidly instead of safely. There are less than a handful of members here who seem to follow exhortations to go slow. It was too late for me to do anything about my situation by the time I got here so I had to suffer the full brunt of wd syndrome.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

So back to what I learned from the article as regards to weight loss.

 

The guy I mentioned who had to exercise 7 hours a day? Not sure if he had to do it the whole time but they gave them activity trackers and used (I assume) the 'standard calories burned while doing an activity' type of thing to calculate what he would have to do to lose weight. He would have to log his activity and there were times (he said) when he was still exercising at night till he got in enough activity for his counter to 'reset' by midnight. He had to burn 8,000-9,000 calories a day to lose weight.

 

Read that again. We are talking a full job day of movement. The thing that is weird is that exercise burns calories (it's the energy that fuels the muscles and maintains metabolic processes of a moving machine) but the caloric expenditure during exercise seems so miniscule as to how it actually feels. My tracker calculates the 2 hours of bike riding (leisurely pace < 10 mph) at only 439 cals burned. Sheesh. And with a coaster bike even on flat terrain I can only glide so far so I am pedaling nearly the whole time.

 

This is what the study found that was so surprising, even though science already knew that the body experiences 'adaptive metabolism':

The results, the researchers said, were stunning. They showed just how hard the body fights back against weight loss.

“It is frightening and amazing,” said Dr. Hall, an expert on metabolism at the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, which is part of the National Institutes of Health. “I am just blown away.”

 

It has to do with resting metabolism, which determines how many calories a person burns when at rest. When the show began, the contestants, though hugely overweight, had normal metabolisms for their size, meaning they were burning a normal number of calories for people of their weight. When it ended, their metabolisms had slowed radically and their bodies were not burning enough calories to maintain their thinner sizes.

These people were needing about 500 cals per day LESS to haul their thinner bodies around after their weight loss. And one of the biggest saboteurs of maintaining weight lost was the reduction in a hormone called 'leptin'. Leptin falls, you experience hunger. Their leptin levels remained low and they were always hungry. That one guy said it was so strong (the hunger and the body's pull to regain the lost weight) that he would open a bag of chips and, meaning to have only a few, would sort of 'black out' and come to and realize he had eaten the whole bag. The body wants what the body wants.

 

The theory has something to do with 'set point', your body's point of balance of activity and calorie intake to keep you at nearly the same weight for all time unless you change things drastically. That's the theory, anyways, why just calorie reduction does not produce as much weight loss as adding exercise into the equation does. So we come to my theory as regards to ingestion of ADs. They seem, to a pill, to alter your metabolism (insulin resistance anyone?) and set the stage for your weight to increase. Many see how they get sugar binges while on the drugs and alcohol cravings too (etoh is metabolized as pure sugar). So over the drug years I can see how your set point can get moved. And here's where the above article bears this out. You lose the weight but your body does not make a new set point, for these weight losers anyway. It may be that the longer you take to lose the weight is the key: that might allow your leptin levels to normalize and you can then keep the weight off without battling constant hunger.

 

For some, however, like me, there is a period of weight loss following the (abrupt) cessation of meds. I remember sweating and feeling like I was burning up all the time, especially at night. It could be 40 degrees outside and I had the windows open and could not feel it. There's the numbness that comes from the meds but also the amazing amount of energy my body was expending to heal itself and make a working organism recover from what the drugs did to it. I am in year 4 of recovery and I remember that last winter I did not wake as often in the middle of the night because I was on fire from the inside. But I can still get a sort of a 'hot flash', just not as bad.

 

I lost a lot of weight in the year that protracted wd started and I attribute it to metabolic processes working overtime. I did not have hunger at all, I had to force myself to eat and I could barely do my half hour walks each day but by golly I did them any way and probably missed only a handful of days without them. It was all autonomic nervous system uproar causing the energy expenditure I am positive.

 

But I am kind of seeing now that my body resisting its weight loss is something that will take a lot of time and patience to overcome and is NORMAL. (I've got age going against me too.) No starvation diets (bad idea in a recovering system), no over exercising either. I'm feeling ok with 2 hours biking a day even though I want more (my butt does not!), because there's something eminently soothing in the rhythmic pumping of the pedals jiving to tunes along the way in the hot morning sun on my way to my diet sugary caffeine filled treat. I feel good AFTER I've done it, not so much during. And maybe one day my damaged (but recovering) system will give me a 'rush'. I also read somewhere you won't get the 'rush' if you don't get at least 8 hours sleep a night and I am still stuck at 6. (How do they know that?)

 

There's more to be discovered with studies like that and I like how the authors did not go overboard with theories of 'why' just yet.

 

Again the adage: 'slow and steady wins the race'.

 

So I have decided to put the scale back in the closet and stay off the diet/activity tracker and just enjoy the bike. I'll monitor my results by how my clothes fit instead. And how I feel. I might not ever be svelte enough to please my eyes but perhaps I'll be healthier.

[btdt]

Sounds like your living life good for you enjoy the pop and the bike 

peace

[Rockingchaircat]

Concerning bicycle posture.

 

Just an idea- try instead a Recumbent Bike or Trike. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recumbent_bicycle

 

I have a recumbent trike that I use for my aerobic exercise.  Much easier on the back and butt.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I have much more to write about my bike riding experience (which is now on hold) and thoughts about weight loss but I have to digress for a bit.

 

I had to take my mother to the hospital (and I'll describe that a bit more too) and while there the morning after her previous night's admission, I was waiting for the Dr. to come in when her nurse arrived to give he some meds. She started to pull her gown up to give her a shot in her abdomen! What????????? Turns out it is now protocol at that hospital for every patient to get a daily injection of low dose heparin to prevent blood clots.

 

I had a few controlled words about subjecting patients to a medication that can cause uncontrolled bleeding all because staff does not have time to make sure patients get out of bed and move around often enough. The nurse tolerated my outburst and I have a feeling she knew it was not a good thing to do to a 91 year old woman who already had these huge patches of blood blisters all over her hands, fingers and lower arms so she said quietly to my mother that she could refuse it, I think more for my benefit as Mom was not too with it at the time. I asked the nurse to please not give it to her and she acquiesced.

 

I talked to her doc on the phone later that day and I told him we needed to get her out of there ASAP now that he knew what it was (look up 'pemphigus' and you'll see how rare and ugly it is) before she got REALLY sick from being there and he agreed. I mentioned the heparin thing and he said that although the hosp was right to do that, that in this case I was 'righter' in refusing it.

 

This is not good, this being responsible for her care. She is not nursing home material yet and that will surely kill her prematurely for that to happen. I don't want her to suffer needlessly and depriving her of being at home just 'because she is very old' is not the right thing to do. She feeds herself and gets up to pee and poop and has not shat herself so there's that. As long as the TV works, the oxygen machine is working and she has a ready supply to tootsie rolls and diet 7up, things are good (she does eat other stuff but it is fast food or processed and that is not such a bad diet really as she is 91 for pete's sake. The dietician says she is only slightly underweight for her size). I know she wants to die, she says so, she's tired of living (me too) but it's not our times yet. She refuses to eat anything she does not want and will not let me cook for her.

 

Forgive me for the c & p garbage but you have to see what I saw when I looked up 'Lovenox' on drugs.com that day:

 

For the Consumer

 

Applies to enoxaparin: injectable, solution

 

In addition to its needed effects, some unwanted effects may be caused by enoxaparin (the active ingredient contained in Lovenox). In the event that any of these side effects do occur, they may require medical attention.

Severity: Major

 

You should check with your doctor immediately if any of these side effects occur when taking enoxaparin:

More common:

 

Bleeding gums

coughing up blood

difficulty with breathing or swallowing

dizziness

headache

increased menstrual flow or vaginal bleeding

nosebleeds

paralysis

prolonged bleeding from cuts

red or black, tarry stools

red or dark brown urine

shortness of breath

 

Less common:

 

Bruising

chest discomfort

collection of blood under the skin

confusion

continuing bleeding or oozing from the nose and/or mouth, or surgical wound

convulsions (seizures)

fever

irritability

lightheadedness

lower back pain

pain or burning while urinating

swelling of the hands or feet

tightness in the chest

uncontrolled bleeding at the site of injection

vomiting of blood or material that looks like coffee grounds

wheezing

 

Rare:

 

Back pain

burning, pricking, tickling, or tingling sensation

chest pain

chills

cough

decreased urine output

dilated neck veins

dizziness or lightheadedness when getting up suddenly from a lying or sitting position

extreme fatigue

fainting

fast or irregular heartbeat

general feeling of discomfort or illness

irregular breathing

leg weakness

problems with bowel or bladder function

skin rash or hives

sneezing

sore throat

sudden fainting

swelling of the face, fingers, feet, genitals, mouth, or tongue

thickening of the bronchial secretions

troubled breathing

weight gain

 

Incidence not known:

 

Abdominal or stomach pain

deep, dark purple bruise

hives or welts

irregular heartbeat

itching, pain, redness, or swelling

large, flat, blue, or purplish patches in the skin

nausea or vomiting

nervousness

numbness or tingling in the hands, feet, or lips

puffiness or swelling of the eyelids or around the eyes, face, lips, or tongue

redness of the skin

skin rash

unusual tiredness or weakness

weakness or heaviness of the legs

 

Severity: Minor

 

Some of the side effects that can occur with enoxaparin may not need medical attention. As your body adjusts to the medicine during treatment these side effects may go away. Your health care professional may also be able to tell you about ways to reduce or prevent some of these side effects. If any of the following side effects continue, are bothersome or if you have any questions about them, check with your health care professional:

Less common:

 

Diarrhea

irritation, pain, or redness at the place of injection

 

 

 

Oh Lord, I am paying and paying big time for all my sins, eh? Well, bring it on. (I am not sure I totally believe this concept but it's ok.)

 

She is home now and I am back on duty. There are more problems to come but not till next week. I may not be able to talk about them even with the anonymity of this site. Having a 'mental (un)health diagnosis' is a liability and I am very concerned for MY health now. I just don't want to do this anymore but have no option but to go through it.

[compsports]

CW,

 

Good thing I have to leave soon or I would be ranting in your thread big time about shooting your mother up with heparin as a routine precaution to prevent blood clots.  Just when I think medical care can't get worse, I am always proven wrong.

 

Your mother is lucky to have you.

 

I am so sorry you have to deal with this in light of everything you have been through.

 

CS

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Came back to edit something and saw your comment CS. Thanks for the upvote...

 

I could never cut it as a nurse in today's world. If anything untoward had happened because of the heparin use I would be tempted to sue the cr@p out of them but of course that could not happen as you sign stuff when you get admitted that gives them permission to do such things.

 

I question a lot of stuff now. She has a rx to take pepsid daily because she had complained she had heartburn one day (she never told me that and won't). It's a 'histamine-2 receptor antagonist' which is of course just what she needs to take DAILY right? For occasional heartburn? I did not even look up its side effects yet. I'll fill the rx but she won't get it daily. She hardly eats anything as it is but she apparently eats enough because her system is still functioning. Still poops and pees, she knows how to take care of herself.

 

Her skin has a yellow cast and they did an ultrasound in the ER which showed she has some small gallstones (prob the reason for the heartburn and the jaundice). So they wanted to do another more complicated test to confirm (confirm what??). I said why, are you going to do surgery on a 91 y.o. who has COPD, really? They backed off.

 

I am just not a compliant person anymore where medicine is concerned. I know too much. They kind of leave me alone...... I am always careful to state my case calmly and cooly after researching it and they have no way to dismiss me as a crank. Not yet, anyway.

[Flowers]

Well done CW.

 

You are doing an amazing job looking out for your mum given that you have problems of your own.

 

Thank God you stopped her getting the heparin. I think this has taught us to be very cautious with any meds before offered by the medical profession. Once I used to take anything the Dr gave me without questioning - that's how I ended up in this WD mess!

 

Now I question everything, which doesn't seem to go down well in Spain where the Dr's are placed on a level with God. Too bad!

 

I hope your mum is comfortable and that you continue to feel able to look after her.

 

xxxx

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Thank you Flowers. This is not how I saw it playing out but this is how it is right now.

 

Who woulda thunk it? Smoked for 45 years, drank alcoholically for I think 20 some years, never exercised and ate whatever she wanted. 91 1/2 years old and still with it but not in great shape. Can't breathe or see very well any more. And sorry to say not much love lost here. But it seems to be what I have been given to do.

 

On a lighter note (but at the same time a very serious one for you study lovers), I think I'll just leave this here. Had me ROFL. I wish I remembered the Asian guy's name in the TODD parody, I think he is a doctor but I can't place him. (Edit: nope not a doctor but BD Wong from Law 'n' Order SUV) Ya gotta love how JO gets to the heart of the matter with his delightful humor.

 

Via this blog:

 

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/05/10/john-oliver-teaches-us-how-to-interpret-medical-and-scientific-studies/

 

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Some days the internet is a wasteland populated by illiterate trolls and other days I find stuff like this:

 

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/04/how-neuroscientists-explain-the-mind-clearing-magic-of-running.html

 

I think cycling applies too, at least it was working some kind of magic, idk, but I don't feel so good since I had to stop it. RCC above suggested a Trike (I have one, haven't mastered it yet) and a recumbent (sorry, hate them and it just reinforces the sitting position I am in all day). No, I want what I have, just minus the sore tushie. I got a new seat which helped that area but then started pushing on the gates of the boarded up Pleasure Palace and in trying to find a better position (even with padded shorts added into the mix) it's a non starter. Right now I am near the end of my enforced rest trying to heal my sacroiliac joint, which I thought only old people had, which I irritated from raising my seat up too high. Oh Oh Oh does that ever hurt! I had to wear pants in this heat for a few days too because I needed to grab the right pants leg to pull my leg up to get over the threshhold and down into my car.

 

So ever since I stopped I have felt so sleepy and tired and kinda sickly. What happened? Then one day I was looking at my fingernails and saw I have those longitudinal ridges and I flashed on the 2 other things I had not thought of but which might add up to a problem: last year my hair started falling out and is not growing back at its usual rate and I was unable to lose any weight even with cutting the calories way back.

 

I might have a low thyroid. The other thing that is odd is that I don't feel very normal as far as body temp goes. So if you take your temp in the morning before you get up and average it over 10 days and it is low it is 'suggestive' for low thyroid and you can get it checked. That's another kettle of fish right there though. My temp is running 36.4 C and no matter when I take it it is that low. I did manage to have my thermometer handy when I felt a bit warm (before the A/C kicked on) and it was 37.2 (37 is normal).

 

It is my feeling that things are difficult to diagnose as actionable until your body has calmed down from wd syndrome. You can chase your tail over something that no test will ever find because wd is primarily (in my opinion) a FELT experience, not so much physical as in likely to show up in a test. Even your vitals are normal, mine were.

 

The fun never stops. But until the thing with mom I was starting to feel better, not so 'down'.

 

Before I go to the doc tho I checked and I have been using non iodine salt and haven't eaten any seaweed so that might be something to add into my diet. Just what I need, thyroid hassles with a doctor. I wonder if that extra exercise was enough to finally get more symptoms to show up (the fatigue). I've had the temp thing ever since wd started. The hair really started looking like classic straw too and the brittle fingernails sorta crept up on me.

[btdt]

Sorry to hear about your Mom CW you did a great job looking after her.  That stomach drug I  think can be bought at a lower dose over the counter depending on the dose... baking soda and water or tums would be a safer way to go in my opinion.  I read the post at the bottom of your link 

 

I like this comment 

"It's interesting that running, which involves so much physical activity, and a good session of meditation, which might be perceived as doing nothing, can both produce similar mind-clearing effects. What is it that these self-therapies have in common that allows both to produce similar results in spite of being so different?

It has to do with detaching from whatever one has become narrowly focused on, stuck with, hung up on, identified with, and expanding one's horizons and approach to whatever one is dealing with in life. 

If you are unable to go for a run to help open the way for yourself, a few minutes of meditation can do the same for you, or even a few seconds if you are well practiced at it, especially if you combine the meditation with a nice stretch and some deep, cleansing breaths."

 

Meditaion is my new bike riding tho I have not tried in awhile it may be time I tried. 

Have you tried a gel seat cushion?

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Yeah, I tried the gel and they are poop too. The gel is just as hard after a while. Its the ischie distance you have to get just right to spread the pressure out, the pressure is ok there with the new seat but the lady parts are getting jammed. But this seat is better. I can always cut the distance or just live with it. I'll find out when I start it up again.

 

I still won't mess with meditation, not yet. That's what caused me to lose the ability to sleep when wd syndrome started. If you can do it its cool. I am doing a more moving type of one by biking and where I really do well is driving. I make so many mental connections and get solutions to problems while I am driving. It is disconcerting though if it comes after I have driven home and have not solved someone's computer problem. For some reason I am avoiding walking and running though. I had started running the spring before I destabilized and it scares me a bit. I want more activity than walking, I want to pump the bike pedals and be able to really exert myself if I want and walking won't do right now. I m almost positive I won't bring on wd syndrome by exerting myself because i have been able to do it in small spurts. But I am an old lady now and I don't want to croak just yet.

 

I found out the pepsid is over the counter so I cancelled the script. And I asked her and she only had it that one night and doesn't want the pills every day. But she knows to ask for one now. I swear medicine is out to kill ya if you are not careful. She says they actually did come in and give her a heparin shot one day when I was not there and she told them no more. She's not dumb.

 

I've been reading that 'Science of Us' section all day and just love it. Whets my appetite for more.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Oh I finally found the article I was looking for (the one of 2 I wanted in my thread for posterity) and I have no idea why I could not see it before as I knew the author was 'someone named Altostrata' and is part of her story. I must have looked at it a million times...... it is in other places on the web too.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/392-one-theory-of-antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome/

 

CG's story and hers were instrumental in helping me understand ALL that happens during acute wd syndrome and helped me stay the non drug non interference course that allowed me to recover as quickly as I have. OMG I still cannot believe I survived what I survived. Some parts are unspeakable suffering and the worst part is the utter feeling of being trapped in a waking nightmare you are sure will never end. You find yourself in a body you have never inhabited before and it just does not WORK and is torturing you at every turn and there is nothing you can do to help it except eat, rest, walk a bit and keep distracting yourself (and hide the knives) till the sh1t stops spinning from the fan blades. I had a replay of a part of it this morning, a tortured dream unfolded after my second sleep started and all I can remember is that I think I was in an asylum somewhere and was never getting out. I awoke crying. I think the mom stress is taking its toll and the upcoming meeting with the social worker and a lady from the state is scaring the pants off me.

 

I think it may have happened yesterday morning too, my eyes were wet when I opened them. That has never happened before.....

 

So I think that unless something really bad happens I am done posting for awhile. I don't have a recovery story to write yet because it's just not there. I am probably the same as Alto, it won't come for years yet. But I am pretty sure wd syndrome is done for good unless I do something really stupid. It's the deranged feelings mechanisms that are now waiting to heal, those quirky receptors that need to up or down regulate and repopulate, the ones the drugs took a sledgehammer to and I had no idea. When I see that happening, that's what I will come back and try to write about. That is where the rubber meets the road in these stories: can we recover and learn how to handle ALL of our emotions without resorting to chemical manipulation ever again? I'd sure like to find out.

 

If I think of anything important I'll come back and add it but what I wanted to say is pretty much all said already.

[btdt]

Truth I have fallen down on both respects... I don't meditate or ride a bike not doing any self care right now other than resting eating rather well and physio... at one point my physio and hearing-loss head exercises took 5 hours a day to do... so we are not talking small stuff here.  It has been cut back to just physio now so much less time a day maybe an hour.. I find myself at a loss as to what to do with a day sometimes...just lost. That is the truth of the matter I get stuck at times and seem to veg or stall it will pass 

 

No matter what your relationship with your Mom her illness will affect you and I hope you get to say what you want to say is all I have to say. 

 

I wish you peace

ps the science is perverted got that long ago reading contradictory studies about ADs it seems serious science is getting the same doubt as the trash science sad but true... it has been like this for many years now... what money can buy .. what people want is kind of creepy... 

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Started reading more about Dan Harris, the ABC newscaster who had an on-air panic attack in the early 2000s. His doc explained it was likely due to a bit of stimulating recreational drug use, and told him to knock it off. An assignment from his boss Peter Jennings to cover 'Religion and Spirituality' led him to try meditation and now he's a daily meditator. And he wrote a book about it too. What got me looking into his story was a new member's experience and I found Dan's delightful description of his journey into the world of meditation gloriously tongue-in-cheek in parts and almost abjectly self effacing in others, and hilariously funny in this circa 2014 talk at google NYC. He has a bit on Tolle that had me rolling. NSFW language in parts, he ought to do stand up he's so good.

 

 

Maybe it's time for me to put a toe in the water again?

 

Edited to add: But no where can I find how he fared in the immediate aftermath of the episode and strangely missing are any accounts of treatment, except maybe talking to the shrink (probably better therapy than pills). I don't think he was medicated and he was lucky. Were drugs so shotgunned into people back then? Was he offered benzos and refused? I know panic attacks and PTSD sufferers are cruelly over medicated nowadays, what about back then? It might be in the book, $10.95 for the kindle version, link above. Was he off air for a time too? The video of him during his attack belies the fact that to him, his world fell apart in front of 5 plus million viewers. Just a slight shaky breathlessness to his voice and a quick "Back to you, Diane (Sawyer)" followed by a deep breath while the camera was still rolling in the studio, a nervous straightening of the knot in his tie, a barely perceptible squaring of the shoulders after that deep breath.. You can hardly tell there was a problem.

 

(PS. Nz11, you still need to learn how to turn a link into words? You actually do it the other way around. You turn the words into a link. I saw your question in one of your posts while I was looking for The Works).

[btdt]

28 min is he says taking the meds prescribed to you I don't know..... 

 

he has doctor science parents maybe that is how he managed to not get drugs.... 

 

maybe journalists don't get them in case he talks lol

 

I can't believe he read the power of now and missed the most important line in the entire book....

 

watch for the next thought ... when it comes start over... that is very odd to me... very odd...and you don't have to clear you mind is wrong you do... and everything he talks about here in other authors books came from the power of now.. ALL of it he gives credit to other people... he says we are all A..holes... hmmm maybe he is. not a fan BOO to him. 

 

I did look for my Power of Now book so I could quote the things he gives credit to other for... but I can't find it.. or I would as I hate when people steal things and give them to somebody else... yep I am about decency... most days.

[btdt]

if you read this you will see

 

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/1577314808

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Whatever you say, b, whatever you say.

 

I believe you missed the entire point of what he had to say and misunderstood the rest.

 

It's ok, keep stalking those thoughts if that's what works for you.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Just feeling like I need one of these:

 

 

[btdt]

Whatever you say, b, whatever you say.

 

I believe you missed the entire point of what he had to say and misunderstood the rest.

 

It's ok, keep stalking those thoughts if that's what works for you.

Really I would say the same back to you. Still agreeing or disagreeing I wish you peace and a taco kitty...we don't have to agree on everything. I am very passionate about the power of now as it saved me once so I know it inside and out even without the book in my hand. 

peace

[btdt]

This is good too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgpeLFf4z4

[scallywag]

CW: Google spreadsheet updated: Dose % estimator

 

The calculation we talked about is on the 2nd tab, "assess_prev_cuts". The first tab calculates 35 cuts of the same %; it's also set up to calculate approximate "cut date" based on a standard time period of your choice. :-)

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Tks Scally, I'll re-download it tomorrow.

 

I had my computer booted up yesterday and played with it and The Works a bit because I wanted to see the formulas. They all have $ and I have no clue what those are, I am a sheet fx noob. But it was so cool to just grab a dose and plug it in and see the whole sheet populate. Just what I wanted!

 

I have been so upset lately, can't sit at my desktop but instead lying in bed on the tablet. I can use the spreadsheets in the android version of excel but not investigate the formulas.

 

Btdt, what is the purpose of the 'watching the thoughts' exercise? (In 25 words or less, your own words please). Chopra calls it the 'Gap'. Do you know what he is referring to? Do you remember what Jesus refers to it as? How about Buddha?

 

Why is it desirable to attempt to live in the 'gap'? If someone states "The point of power is in the present moment" is he making sense or full of poop? Where is the 'present moment' anyway?

[btdt]

Is this some kind of test to prove I am wrong?  I don't want to play.  I feel ill intent... why the questions. I was in a very bleak place I found a book called the power of now in that book I found a man ready to die as I was... this is what he said...

 

my brain was driving to distraction I sat up in bed ready to end it all I could not take one more minute and I chose to die... and when I had made the choice to do it.. all the chatter in my head stopped... and I thought hey who made that choice ... if my brain was busy with chatter what is the voice that said I am dying... end of story no more problems... 

 

hence duality... one voice chatters ... the ego driven choice maker we are raise to follow it makes us decent citizens we follow the get up go to school get up go to work.. why.. to earn the things we are told we want.. all the while there is a self.. the one who could say NO>>> that doesn't say much goes along trying to tick the boxes of happiness and raise to all the obligations we are told we have to be decent successful human being and all the while that real self is saying ok this ok cause I am ok to a point then one day the self is not ok .. the chatter is driving the self to distracting the demands are too high the rewards are too small and there is a break... 

 

once the break comes... the source of the real power is found.. it is the self that can choose as once the choice was made the voice was silent...

 

I have lived this over and over and over in my life it was not just reading it... it was living it so many time I chose to die I knew exactly how I would die I wrote my letters I had everything ready.. my brain was driving me mad... I wanted out there were no rewards or not enough the trickets I could buy the food the houses the whatever the pats on the back... all that.. not enough... 

 

Once I chose to die it all stopped I got relief... and I had a rest from the brain chatter but at the time I had not identified it as such.. I just knew when I chose to die and when I had it all ready to go... I magically no longer wanted to die and the torment ended and I could have a rest and then later go on.... 

 

There was not just chatter but visions of horrid things that started when I took prozac I thought all those 18 year of taking drugs I was mentally ill I did not know I had taken a mind altering drug I thought it was an anti inflammatory...so I kept taking more drugs cause I never knew I had a sar to prozac and that is what started it... more drugs kept it going but at a lower rate... it would come and go... add another drug to my AD and back it would start I would quit that drug get wd go back on another drug... do it all over again... sometimes it was different with effexor it was different but still not great... celexa was added more insanity... I thought this was the drug failing and my disease coming back I bought in hook line and sinker I was a believer I drank the cool aide completely because I did not know... 18 year of that... 18 years of intermittent suicidal thoughts and plans of how to die.. 

 

One time I decided to see what role suicide played in my life and I took a long hard look at it and discovered it was a break I did all that to get a break from the torment once I made the decision the torment stopped I had no problems as I was not going to be here I had a break then went back to life many times...sometimes I had to stop a drug and start another if I was having too much... I think this was too much serotoin for me but no I can't prove it... 

 

I was in a state in wd after my 18 months of seemingly getting better all the time and I hit the wall and was so negative and depressed it was bad... and I found the book the power of now .... and it rescued me from that.  

 

The stopping the thoughts as I was plagued with a lot of really bad negative thoughts and memories of being not myself and stripping and so very much happened in that time that nobody knows but me... it was bad and I had lost my best friend to these drugs and watched him have a brain anyerism... it was constant bombardment of those bad thoughts I could not get out from under it... and my husband was dying... all that old stuff... and all the therapy I had done was not worth a dime and I went to more therapy and it did nothing... not really. 

 

I got that book and the sky opened for me when I started doing that one thing... focus intently on the next thought... when it comes start over... I did that over and over and over and over I took control of my own brain and freed myself from torment... it was like planning a suicide to get relief but I did not have to do the gruesome work... it was hard work at the time but It worked like magic.  

 

That is why I am speaking up cause this was a big deal to me... and I hope this answers your questions I am not so hot at tests and that is a lie I was an honour student and if I am well and I decide to learn something I can learn anything.. but I do not want to look up each thing you asked and learn it ...I want to answer you based on that book the power of now I also could talk about Jesus if you like but am now sure what your asking regarding that... not really I have such a gutteral reaction to the question and an immediate urge to get you to understand this ... which is for me emotional that I am not in my head about Jesus I am in my gut about what I know saved me... and that is what I am sharing if you like another time I will come back and talk about the others if you still need it lets see how this flies first.. if that bird don't fly then... we talk about it some more. 

peace

[btdt]

sorry for the mistakes it was in no way a suggestion that your not worth my corrections I am just tired and had to get it out right away... k 

peace to you CW... 

[scallywag]

I'm glad you got what you wanted.  The $ signs mean that the cell reference is absolute.  "What's that?" you ask. Here's a video on cell references from one of my favourite youtube channels, Excel Is Fun.  Excel Basics #8: Cell References

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Oh I had to laugh, 'Excel is Fun', bwahahaha!

 

But it really is, when you get the hang of it. I am just a casual dabbler, just not versed in the world of fx.

 

So why do I want a sheet that does that? (Someone asked in another thread, prob nz11's, one of the sheet jockeys I knew would help me out.) For one, I am too lazy to do it by hand.....

 

If someone posts their taper plan, I can run it through the checker and see if they went FASTER or SLOWER than the method we encourage. And even when they just post the start and stop dates. Tapering has a 'bell curve' distribution of result outcomes I am sure: it is too fast for some and too slow for others and most do really well with it. I can look at it and if they hurried it up in the last year, when it is the most critical, and now they are having symptoms of wd I can point that out as the PROBABLE reason. It helps them (not much) but helps the readers of the board MORE to see that what you do on these drugs has consequences. Get it?

 

I often post my views on this stuff in my thread instead of elsewhere even though I never tapered. I read the stories of others and I see the ones who think they know better crash and burn and that just reinforces my view that it is far better to let the body down gradually then to rush off the drugs and assume la la land awaits where your unicorn is saddled up and you ride off into the drug free sunset.

 

Nope. haven't really seen it work that way yet. Too many crawl back here or just go back on the drugs (or some actually start posting on the Great Recovery Board in the Sky, alas) or just suffer a whole lot longer than is needed because they don't believe it.

 

Yep, I do think the drugs alter your thinking. Cavalier is a good word for it.

 

Btdt, you went waaaaaayyyyy out of the 'now' in your reaction to my posting, but that just shows more about you than me. You aren't able to see that Tolle has made the same money you are accusing Harris of doing from the elucidation of concepts that are 'timeless' and he did not 'steal' anything.

 

Look up, look up, broaden your horizons a bit. There are so many of these kinds of people, they are saying the same thing in different ways according to their experience. Some kinda pervert it so you have to watch out, but most do it in such a way as to spark understanding in a 'mind' where others have failed.

 

Some people cannot stand Tolle, you surprised? Does that say more about them or Tolle?

 

The present moment, the Now, the point of power, the ground of all being, and countless other phrases (Oh, the 'Holy Ghost' I think, too) all refer to the same thing which has to be experienced, not defined and defies description. My favorite word is 'ineffable' because not only does it describe it (not) [i am referring to Tolle talking about 'Presence' here] but you cannot really define the word itself without stumbling all over yourself. Try it without looking in the dictionary if you think you know what it means. I can't so I don't try. I reach for the word 'ineffable' and let it go at that.

 

Dan Harris is appealing to the skeptics and overly bright and scientific minded folk, trying to draw them into a reliable way of experiencing the 'ineffable' because he knows it's really the best thing going for a lot of humanity's ills and he is walking proof. Interesting to note his wife thinks it's great for him but not interested herself. Did you hear that part? I believe she loved him enough to marry him while still thinking he could be an insufferable azz. He's not so much of an azz now. Regular contacts with the 'ineffable' will do that to you, it appears. I should do it too.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I just found out that wikipedia is really cool to look up the metabolization pathways for stuff you ingest (if it is known). I know some say W is cr@p but it is good enough for quick reference but I am not going to use its directions on how to pack a skydiving chute and start doing it on my own, lol. It is written by PEOPLE and anyone can edit entries. I don't think inaccurate info survives very long if it gets stuck in. Some people's reason for being is to spend all their time on wikipedia. Look at the edit trail.

 

So I think I am not affected by caffeine very much and I remember reading somewhere that it may be related to one of those liver 'C' enzyme thingies (how's that for science language).

 

On the right, in the box, is the pertinent info.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

 

Hey! I thought she said she was going to stop posting? I am not posting status updates or discussions about what I am doing but adding stuff to the board I think may be of interest and pertinent. I am stable for now, I may post something if I get my thyroid checked because that affects how I feel as a survivor of wd syndrome. The rest is fluff, you don't have to read it. Just trying to get my 'view' count up there, lol.

 

(Dang, I wish there was a breadcrumb for scrolling to the bottom like there is for rapid ascent to the top of the page. Have to keep touching and grabbing my tablet screen after a refresh to see if I need to make more edits to a post and a refresh puts me back at the top when the post I want to see is at the bottom. I am just not happy with things as they are, are I....)

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

So things are really complicated with my mother and I feel ill and not sure why but it is probably stress. I have no idea why the sudden urge to offer advice to people on the site but I'll do it till the next chapter of my life starts. It's looking to be a really neat project, fell into my lap, and I am excited.

 

Did you know you can put a member on 'ignore' and you won't see any of their posts anywhere on the site? Sometimes it's a good idea, can save your mental sanity. One of my posts in the 'How To Use This Site" explains how it works. And it's in the 'Help' menu for the board. You have to remember you did it though (you might think you are going looney) and if they post on your topic and you don't reply they will think you are ignoring them....lol, but the functionality is there.

 

Edit: Oh hey! You won't forget because the site shows if there is a poster you have hidden, takes effect immediately and everywhere and you can pick and choose if you want to uncover a post or not. Be aware you must be logged in for it to work, leading me to believe it is stored in all the site functionality that is only active via your profile settings when you sign in, like the ability to see the benzo forum and the Commons.

 

Cooler than cat litter!

 

I like Dan's definition of mindfulness (it may not be all his):

 

"Mindfulness is the ability to know what's happening in your head at any given moment without getting carried away by it." He further adds it is useful for not taking the bait and acting on those thoughts that might come up, especially if when doing so is not in your best interests, when stuff happens that triggers anger (like telling your boss off, road rage causing an accident when someone cuts you off, that kind of mindLESS reaction.) It is found about 21:55 in the video above.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

When your thinking is all muddled up from the drugs, your psyche is too apathetic to do anything else but veg and you sit around playing solitaire all day because you cannot seem to get up the energy to do much else, critical thinking is more trouble than it is worth. A few insights have occurred to me after the events of the last week. I am 4 1/2 years away from the drugs at this point.

 

I went back and listened to Dan Harris's talk from above and something struck me: Dan speaks in compound sentences. Fortunately for me, I can listen in compound sentences (and read too). To speak it, you must be mindful of inflection, pauses, phrasing, all those cues that punctuation gives on the written page to get meaning communicated to the reader. But if you aren't good at following it, you'll likely hear things that weren't there because you did not follow subject, object, all that stuff I had to diagram in sentences at school.

 

Somewhere else (besides textbooks and learned discussions) where compound sentences are found is in Paul's Epistles (letters). That guy can do a greeting (salutation ) in a letter that spans 10 paragraphs and is ALL ONE SENTENCE, and you have to read him carefully. How this came to me is: in the church I joined, someone (called the Lector) gets up and does a reading (from the Bible), leads a responsive reading of a Psalm, and does a second reading. I was Lector for the first time today. I was miffed at myself after I finished because I knew I messed up my inflections and did not properly convey Paul's salutation for the reading of the First Lesson, a long compound sentence. I did, however, get the scolding tone of the second part right because I have that strong critical inner parent in my ear all the time. So I am good on Paul. And there was only one weird name to pronounce (Galatia) but I flubbed it because I said it 2 ways: Gala shuh, and Ga la tea a (the churchy people can look it up, what I read, because I understand Christian churches follow the same stuff throughout the church year). I am really picky about pronouncing those Old Testament names right and I forgot that simple one, forgot to look it up because I thought I already knew it. Someone told me afterwards it is Gala shuh. I have to check google.

 

I was nervous and I got a bit lost. That brings me to my second point. Dan had a panic attack while reading the news, he knew there were people watching. I felt my heart pounding, my breath was a bit constrained and my voice had a barely perceptible shakiness (but I knew it was there even if you did not hear it) when I stood up in front of the congregation (all of about 50 people as it's summer and the snowbirds have flown the coop). All standard public speaking jitters. But it is my guess that the body can become alarmed when it notices you are feeling like that and forgot it was because you are speaking in public (which makes everyone a bit nervous, even the veterans.) So it goes nuts and you have a panic attack. How the use of stims like coke set up that to happen I don't understand yet.

 

I was so afraid of going Tourette's (where does THAT impulse come from, it plagued me every day in church for the first 3 months) that Pastor gave me an angel pin for my shirt. It went right on my shoulder and it must have worked because I stuck to the script. Whew.

 

Oh gosh I am such a ham. I loved it, and I love the standing up in front and singing. Is that what is keeping the depression at bay while all of the mom stuff is happening?

[chia1214]

Hi CW! Thanks for replying to my intro-thread update, nice to hear from you! I replied to you on my thread, but I like to visit the "homes" of my visitors too, so consider yourself visited by me. It makes me think of in real life, I tend to pop-in on friends and acquaintances and have "door-way" visits. I don't go in, they don't always come out, but sometimes those visits last longer than planned ahead visits ever would. It's a funny thing.

 

I enjoyed reading your post about pronouncing Galatia. I've taken up listening to Scripture again in addition to my default of only reading it and my youngest daughter introduced me to the youversion app. It has really helped me with all my past and present biblical pronunciation issues, since someone else is saying them. And I can choose from several different translations so I'm assuming the readers are accurate.

 

I think you are an awesome daughter for being there for your mom.  

 

-- Chia

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Hey, thanks for the note! I am going to look up that 'youversion' thing, I'll have more Lectoring throughout the summer and like I said, I am picky about pronunciation (AND grammar AND spelling and EVERYTHING, I guess lol) it's just me..... There are websites and pronunciation gazetteers all over the net so I know now to do my homework.

 

Ok, I have to run out the door but I wanted to let you know I think of you!

 

And I found this gif on (of all sites ) a site about feline diabetes. (I think my cat fell out of remission). It seems like this stuff just never ends......

 

    supposed to be a 'happy dance' (wonder if I can put it in my sig?)

 

You have to insert the URL as an image (in the posting window toolbar), not as a link per se. I added 3 of them. Since it is fetched from someone else's server I don't think I am garbaging up the site but I'll make a donation anyway....

 

(Edit: nope, not in sig because sigs can only contain 2 images less than 70x70 px. I'll have to see if I can edit it. You all know that an animated gif is a series of static images, right? At least that's how I learned it. And I just found a website, a lot of them in fact, that resize it for you. But now I have to upload it to my media storage here and if I ever need the space I'll have to take it out. I have to attach it as a file first to get it into my media storage and THEN add it to my sig.  )

 

Bwahahaha, pretty cool, huh? But maybe too much for wd addled eyes? Even with all the added line feeds (for white space) I am only at 10 lines I think.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Time for a commercial break! (but the music is likely to give you an earwig...)

 

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Found myself reading this, this morning. I thought I recognized the handle someone chose so I did a search to see who it was. I'm sorta interested in 'addiction' theories but sorta not: it's how you deal with the situation that is important. Saying (as has become fashionable nowadays) that it is because of 'how I was raised so it's not my fault' (and gets you off a deserved prison sentence for the crime you commit) is a way people take those theories and wrap themselves in a 'not responsible' cloak and they never do get help.

 

I am not so much calling attention to the article but to my propensity of, when I search for something, I always scan the list of results and INVARIABLY am drawn to read the ONE link that casts the subject or person in a negative light. The above article was thought provoking but don't know how true it is - isn't it hinted that the Psych Today site or rag has ties to big pharma (or was that WebMD, I get them mixed up....) so idk.

 

I was searching for info to fix a computer problem the other day and I was looking up info on one of dell's bloatware add ons for business class laptops and found myself reading an article on some THING they did that gives attackers a backdoor into a computer and they only got around to fixing it 3 years later (but it is still there). It was responsible for allowing an 'unnamed foreign government access to google's IT services for over a year' or something like that (you can search it). Cracked me up.

 

Stories like that are a magnet for me. Could it be because of how I was raised? Hmmmmmmm.......