success ☼ JanCarol: Reboxetine first, then lithium

[Meimeiquest]

Jan and I have "talked" about psycheducation.org's take on this. Www.nancymullanmd.com also talks about it, in a different way.

[JanCarol]

At the 5:1 ratio of carbonate to orotate; 900mg lithium carbonate is equal to 180mg lithium orotate?

 

so 5mg really is a tiny dose

 

Again it depends on who you read and how the metabolism is measured.  The 5 to 1 ratio is based on excretion in rat urine.  That does not indicate anything about residual amounts in kidneys, brains, etc.  In other research, the ratio is higher - but I have difficulty reading the scientific jargon to pin it down.

 

I'm operating on the assumption that 20 mg of lithium orotate is a "therapeutic dose." (i.e., requiring all the kidney, liver tests) roughly similar to 500 mg lithium carbonate.  25 to 1.  How did I arrive at this?  I read lots of articles about how well people have done on what levels of lithium orotate, and used that as "equivalencies" rather than any ancient (and they are all ancient - orotate hasn't been studied since the 70's) scientific testing.

 

Based on what has happened to me (toxicity), I have drawn an arbitrary line at 5 mg, which should be well under therapeutic levels, and possibly (though I will still want to check blood tests) I'm guessing that will affect me similarly to 125 mg of lithium carbonate.  If I follow this reasoning, I am on 112.5 lithium carbonate, and 1.25 lithium orotate - possibly equivalent to 31.25 mg lithium carbonate - for a total dose around 143.75 mg equivalent to lithium carbonate.

 

As MeiMeiQuest points out, Nancy Mullen has talked about it some:  she says:  

• Lithium Orotate: ~135mg supplying 5mg elemental lithium

And Wikipedia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_orotate says:

 

 

In 1973, Nieper reported that lithium orotate contained 3.83 mg of elemental lithium per 100 mg and lithium carbonate contained 18.8 mg of elemental lithium per 100 mg

But the elemental amount does not actually relate to how much gets into your kidneys, brain, or other organs, as the same wikipedia article points out:

 

A 1979 study states. "The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate".^[8] However, that same study also concluded, "This data suggest the possibility that lower doses of lithium orotate than lithium carbonate may achieve therapeutic brain lithium concentrations and relatively stable serum concentrations."

 

   

 

So my evaluation of lithium orotate is VERY CONSERVATIVE, as you have noted, Peggy.  And certainly more conservative than Nancy Mullen.  I would NEVER recommend 135 mg of orotate.  To anyone.  It's just not studied well enough to use it as a regular supplement.

 

  I certainly don't want to make myself toxic with an OTC supplement of lithium orotate.  Regardless of what John Gray says.

[JanCarol]

Now for the good news:  lookee lookee!

 

Last night:

 

NORMAL normal normal!  Look Ma!  I can sleep like a NORMAL person!

 

Here's October so far - note the early parts with the jet lag:

 

 

Sleep deprivation = corrects my delayed cycle sleep.  Let's see how long it holds!  Maybe you're right, Peggy, extreme travel might be good for me!

 

Now, where did I put that exercise plan?  

[peggy]

So good!

 

If not travel, you may just have to plan to stay up one night (and day) once you start getting back to the nocturnal pattern.  

[nz11]

Hi Jan thanks for commenting in my thread .

Wow i must say thats some fancy way of graphing and recording sleep.

Very impressive thats for sure! 

[JanCarol]

LOL NZ, it's just a Fitbit Flex, cheapest one available, bought used.  Recommended to me by my hand therapist - her husband is a physio, and he leases out fancier ones to people to log their sleep.

 

I'm so pleased as punch with this that I almost want to print it out and take it to her today!

[JanCarol]

Okay, bad news, good news and more good news.

 

I woke up in pain this morning.  That seems to be "normal" - pain in hips, knees, lower and mid back, and difficulty breathing (sinuses).

 

But I realized as I crawled out of bed:  I didn't take any pain drugs last night.

 

THEN, as I thought about it today - I didn't take any pain meds ALL DAY yesterday, and the night before as well!

 

I don't know if this is the reduced lithium, the daytime awakeness, or the SOTA BioTuner, but whatever it is, I am thankful for it.  My fear of being addicted to pain drugs is something I don't talk about often, but those who know me realize that it is something not far from me at all times.

 

So - wow!  What a difference a few days makes!

[JanCarol]

Been a couple of weeks.  I'm mostly steady.  

 

I had a night of bad ruminations, had difficulty letting go.

 

And last night, was disrupted because hubby's CPAP mask was snoring - louder than a snore - the bed was vibrating from the mask, if you put your hand on the side of your mouth and cheek and blow - like we used to make fart noises as kids - that was pretty much constant.  I had to move to a mattress in the hall (then the cat was all over me, but that was better)

 

Woke up in pain, used the micro-tens and am feeling better - but - there is now a subtle shift to slightly later at night, and slightly later arising times.  It was about 10p - 7am, now about midnight - 9 am.

 

I've been pretty active, making appointments, getting little things done around the house (but very few of the big ones).

 

Retirement is a new thing - everything is consultative, "I'm doing this, do you want to. . . " instead of just going through my own patterns and doing things.  The advantage is, I think it helps to regulate me, keep me in a pattern, than when I am on my own.  And another advantage is, he sees what I go through day-to-day, whereas, when he came home tired from work, the last thing I wanted to do was tell him how rough my day had been.  Now he knows when I am in pain, he sees when I get IBS attacks - and has a better awareness of what this is like.

 

The disadvantage is, it's harder to be my selfish self!  

 

*

Fresh tells me that I need to give the BioTuner credit.  I agree, it is good, I enjoy it.  I think it helps with rest and creativity.  But it is not the only factor.  I also have less lithium, I also have this daytime sleep pattern.  

 

Now, where did I put that exercise plan again?  (well, I did go to yoga 2 weeks in a row!  That's a start...)

[AliG]

 That sounds good, J.C .

 

Keep up with the yoga  !  So good !   

[MollyN]

Hi JanCarol

 

It's a funny ol thing - but for the last 3 days I've been reading your journal. I'm up to page 10, but I can't wait any longer to shower you with love and hugs and all sorts of probably stalkerish type emotions (never fear - I'm waay to lazy to stalk anyone!) 

 

It's a shame you don't know me at all which puts me firmly in the 'crazed fan' category since you know nothing about me and I feel like we've been best friends for ever (yeah sorry!) I'd love to be able to write witty clever things like you do to express quite the impact your journal has had on my life  - but I'm a bit teary and a bit emotionally stunted presently, so perhaps I'll just start with a great big undignified high five (unbefitting our middle ages and not using the sore hand - which I'm hoping is healed by the time I get to Oct '15) to express my enormous gratitude. 

 

I feel like you've opened my eyes to life. As though up til now I've been dog paddling through life with my chin just above the water flailing frantically beneath the water line - I wasn't ready to see that I needed to care for myself to find my way to shallow water and the safety of the shore. I've always too busy looking to be taken care of by the invisible mother. My life since 16yrs has been centered on searching for someone to make me feel better, to feel loved and safe.

 

And here you are, with your super intelligent, your deep wisdom and your joy (yip I said it!) leading the way to self love and self care.

 

I've made an enormous list of things you've done, things that I will pursue - things I've started already like qi gong and yoga (disturbingly I'm far far faaar weaker and less flexible than I ever imagined. But you give me hope. Not in a 'if she can do it, anyone can' because I know you are quite remarkable, but in a 'don't be afraid to try, don't even consider fear, be fearless, put yourself first for a change, don't you be a victim cause everyone has pain sort of way. 

 

I feel really privileged to have 'met' you here - and I hope you won't change your name when I start the questions xxxxx lots of love and a short list of favourites so far from your journal (mainly for folks who haven't had the opportunity yet (do it!!):

 

(in no particular order)

ujjayi breathing

barley water

fluoride: reverse osmosis

pysch ed: antidepressants that aren't antidepressants

Bohemian polypharmacy (youtube)

conc powdered aloe

amber lenses

qi gong

tender needs

trauma onion

mindfulness body scan

accupuncture

moodmapping... etc etc beautiful etc xxxxxxx 

 

See you soon xxxxx

[JanCarol]

Wow Molly!   Thank you!

 

Believe me - I say it all the time.  When I go to a karate class, and the young mothers are bringing their sons and daughters - I keep asking - begging!!! them to join in because - if I can do it, they can do it! (I'm big, BMI of about 32, old, and crippled - and these young Mums are only afraid!)

 

Believe me, I did a little yoga today, and there were very uncomfortable bits in this short, simple session - and I walked to the post office today (30 min walk) - but hubby came with me, so I had company, and there was a fete at the school we walked past - so even though I was in pain by the end of it, I did it!

 

Believe me - I'm not especially brave.  But you, who have "come out" right here and now - you are the brave one!  Thank you Molly, pleased to make your acquaintance!   I'm glad you've found some value in my journey - and in your own!

[JanCarol]

Okay.

 

This one falls in the category of TMI.  But I reckon the more I talk about it the sooner it will go away.

 

I tried my first description of it with hubby.  I think he understood.

 

This is a constant symptom (for me, symptoms don't count unless they last more than 3 days, and if they are weird or intermittent - 10 days) for the past week to 10 days.

 

This is a bowel, rectal symptom. 

 

OK you know when you are nauseous, and you feel your stomach churning?  It's like a vibration, rhythmic spasm.  This is what I feel on my lower bowel, rectum.  A constant, pulsing vibration.  It never stops, though it cycles.  It is there whether I am constipated or have diarrhea (I kind of associate the feeling with diarrhea).

 

It is not pain, it is not terrible, just persistent and not pleasant.

 

I've been sitting on a referral to my rectal surgeon (his answer to everything is:  OPERATE!) for a colonoscopy.  I think I might not sit on that referral much longer.  I guess I'll do the colonoscopy before the sleep study.  Sigh.

 

I am intimidated by him, even though he is excellent in his field.  He is a tiny man, about 6 inches wide at the waist, if he turns sideways, he disappears.  He looks at me, and I see the scorn "big, obese, fat, sloppy, crazy old hypochondriac woman if she would lose weight she wouldn't have these problems...." even though he speaks softly and is a good listener.  

 

His answer currently is - staples along the rectum (ouch!) or lose 20 kilos (ouch!) so he can put in a lattice/grid to stabilize my poor prolapsed rectum.  I've heard grim things about those, too.  It was 30 kilos, I have managed to lose 10 since his first assessment 2-3 years ago.  Still not enough.

 

My fear is, that this vibration is my body trying to get rid of something other than poo.  I reckon the surgeon is going to tell me:  IBS (they always do).  Which means "we can't do anything other than repair the prolapse, and if you don't want the staples, you will have to lose more weight....."

 

But I should at least have the colonoscopy and a biopsy to see what's up in there.  Especially if this spasm / vibration continues.

 

NOTE:  Lithium does have some anticonvulsant properties - so this huge decrease in dose could have "uncovered" something that's been going on all along?

 

That's the TMI for today, thanks for listening!  

[JanCarol]

And oh yeah - the surgeon's favorite pain medication is tramadol, because it is less constipating.  He's the whole reason I keep the "bipolar" dx on my chart.  To keep him from giving me that awful stuff.

[peggy]

poor Jan - since i have shared my TMI with you 

 

I would personally steer away from the mesh - and go for the staples. I researched the heck out of mesh when i was looking at gynae surgery for lady bit prolapses.  There are many people out there who have had problems with the body reacting to the mesh and having to go back and have it cut out after it's been there for a while.

 

But, go have the colonoscopy - they are a piece of cake - maybe then you will have more knowledge about what is going on.  

[JanCarol]

Thanks Peggy.  This will not be my first colonoscopy.  But my last prolapse repair - which didn't hold - was so painful, with just stitches - I can't imagine what staples will do to my poor bottom!  I'm afraid of both options.

 

I've been living okay, without the surgery.  My concern, I guess, is that living with a prolapse might make the prolapse bigger, worse?  Uh.  Who knows? (except for maybe the surgeon, and I'm scared of him!)

[Meimeiquest]

Oh, Jan! I'm sorry.

 

These are my thoughts, but I am a pretty neurotic fan of keeping body pieces intact...55 and never had surgery...but have spent a lot of money and done some weird things to avoid it (but I did have my "over 50" colonoscopy, my only anesthesia).

 

Working backwards, what do you think is the root cause of this? I don't think it is only weight (or I would have it in spades). In the comment section of a blog on Cooling Inflammation, the author dialogues with someone about prolapse in general. They think it is running rampant and is somehow connected to the gut dis-ease that seems to be taking over the human race right now, I think it is maybe something to do with collapse of the collagen matrix in connective tissue, I can't remember. Do you think there is anyone in the big country of Australia who is an expert in functional gut health? Maybe your rectum would feel better if it wasn't tortured by IBS?

 

One time awhile back, somewhere in this lithium/benzo taper I woke up with clutching rectal pain. I was in an irrational WD place and went downstairs and cried and cried because I was sure I had rectal cancer, was I really ready to die, what would happen to my children, really what more embarrassing place could you have it. I have done that twice in WD, just over the top fear reaction to a minor thing. It (spasm and fear) was gone by morning. So maybe one could wildly speculate that it could be a WD symptom, not an unmasking.

 

And this is not to Jan, because she knows this, but maybe it would help a newbie...I could find the exact date that happened, because I took the Serenity Prayer off my wall and copied it word for word into the Finding Meaning forum, which I found much more helpful than writing (and reinforcing) about my terror of the moment.

 

Good luck in finding a solution! It sometimes seems if it's not one thing it's another!

[calithebold]

((((((Jan))))))

 

I know you've had these problems for a long time but I agree with Meimei that you need to do that colonoscopy. I know you know that I have problems too and I also haven't had a colonoscopy so I can't talk. However, if you have yours and I know it's scary, I will get my referral and I will actually get mine too. We can be brave at the same time (not in the same place and time obviously, lol) but if we can help each other to be brave, I promise I will get mine too. What do you think? I am so scared about mine 

 

Have a groovy Sunday 

[JanCarol]

Cali - deal!  This will be my 3rd.  It was only scary the time I did it at Pine Rivers Private and the doctors were not very clean, and they just said "bowel wasn't clear enough to see anything" and "must be IBS."  Then, when I went to this guy, he fixed me at the same time as the colonoscopy.  He likes to do that - if he's putting me out, he likes to "fix everything" while he's "in there."  So - THAT colonoscopy ended with weeks and weeks of pain - and - I haven't really been the same, since.

 

Is it any wonder I've been reluctant?

 

MeiMei has a lot of questions:

 

 

Do you think there is anyone in the big country of Australia who is an expert in functional gut health? 

 

Good question.  There is a guy about 45 minutes from me who is an ortho/Walsh doc.  They don't really have "functional medicine" here.  Just Walsh docs.

 

 

 

Maybe your rectum would feel better if it wasn't tortured by IBS?

 

The first prolapse pre-dates the IBS.  The IBS has been a problem since my first colonoscopy.  And became HORRIBLE after the surgery - as I was on a stool softener (coloxyl) for 18 months, to prevent breaking the stitches while the surgery healed.  INDUCED diarrhea for 18 months.  Not a good thing.  After the prolapse broke again, I thought why am I inducing diarrhea with this drug?  It's already broken.  That's why I say that I was never the same after the prolapse surgery / colonoscopy.

 

WHY prolapse?  I ask myself all the time.  I think about ancient or 3rd world people and did they have to do what I have to do in order to poo?  Egads.  My doctor friend asked about a pessary to help - but I don't think that's relevant, as my prolapse doesn't protrude, it is just shredded post-surgical flesh in there (TMI, sorry).  I do think that our processed food, low fiber diet in general increases the statistics.  GMO's and herbicide/pesticide food can't help, either.

 

I agree with you it's not weight.  That's just my tiny, skinny rectal surgeon's prejudice:  he sees obese and thinks "chips and pastries and low-fiber packaged foods."  You and I know otherwise.  

 

My first prolapse had something to do with uterine fibroids, which were so large they were blocking the rectal passage.  Strain and strain and strain.  When I had total hysterectomy, the fibroids were gone, but the problem was not.  I was prolapsed by then.

 

But the collagen thing - that could be a magnesium, vit D, vit K deficiency.  I take plenty of that, now.  But up until last year, I thought Vit K was an "esoteric vitamin" that hardly anyone would need.  That was before I studied magnesium / calcium more fully.

 

Okay, I've been talking about this for 3 days now, and the vibrations in my bum continue.  We can, I guess, change the subject now? (unless someone has a brilliant insight, that is)

[apace41]

Hi, JanCarol,

 

Don't suspect this will be "brilliant insight" but I must ask -- is it really a good thing to have a patient/doctor relationship where you are scared of your doctor? I'm not sure I care how well-regarded and reknowned he is, if you don't feel really good about him that would probably drive me towards another opinion. You can always get a colonoscopy and strictly instruct him "no additional procedure" while you are under -- you'd prefer to discuss all your options after he has the results. Even if it is more convenient to do it all at once, you are the patient and its your call. You could take the results and discuss with another person in the field.

 

I don't know -- just not thrilled with the dynamic you have with him. Seems like you don't trust his approach to you.

 

Well, told you it wasn't brilliant!

 

Hang in there.

 

Andy

[peggy]

There are PLENTY of women in third world countries who live with terrible prolapse and/or fistulae from either no obstetric care or having babies when they are too young .  They live with such terrible shame and are often ostracised from their families and communities.  The Hamlin Fistulae foundation is an Australian organisation in Ethiopia doing wonderful work to relieve women of this terrible situation. My Nepalese friend does work with women in rural Nepal - mainly in awareness and education.

 

After my prolapsed haemorrhoid surgery i asked my Dr how to stop it happening again and he said "don't get old - everything heads south"

 

And I think i agree with Andy - colonoscopy first, on its own - and a second opinion as there are several methods of rectopexy.  Some doctors will have a preference due to their expertise...

[JanCarol]

Thanks Andy!  and Peggy!

 

I'm even more scared of "random doctor." In fact, I'm probably scared of MOST doctors!   Better the devil you know, at least I know this guy is good on the inside - he has fixed hubby's trouble totally - we have both been on his table for 3 occasions total, with it being my turn next.  I also like that his wife is a doctor in his practice, who assists him.  She is a compassionate one, too.

 

He can't help it he's never gained a pound in his life, and it prejudiced against the fat.  That prejudice is my only complaint - and I have that complaint with most practitioners.  They are trained that way.

 

(I have had worse:  my first colonoscopy - oh gods you asked for it! - was performed by a man from a poor neighboring country who blew his nose INTO HIS GLOVES as I was going under.....)  Better the devil I know.

 

****

Now for that new topic I promised:  In talking to Freespirit about dreams, and she said she only had dreams of her partner; I called them "grieving dreams."

 

Boy did I have a doozy of a grieving dream last night.  My first husband, now violently deceased, was the main character.  He was acting crazy, throwing himself off of high places on construction sites and yelling at his bosses, getting fired and getting hauled off by the men in white coats (this is a good metaphor for his life, really).  He abandoned me.  But before he did, he emptied the bank account, leaving me with all the assets - the car and house (including the dog and cat - a lovely little black kitten) and the attached liabilities - and no way to pay for them.

 

I'm probably empathising with members on this site who try to balance work life, home life, and the illness we all deal with here.

 

"I haven't worked in 15 years!  I have no money!  What can I do?"

 

There was a woman in the parking lot near where the ex had thrown himself off of a crane or something before he left.  She was a big woman, covered in tattoos and warm and friendly.  We sat in her car and talked.  She helped me catch the kitten, which had run off.  She got me a job as a waitress.  I didn't even have enough money to eat or drive the car.  I had nothing but a car, a house, a dog and a cat.  One of the waitresses promised to lend me $3 so I could buy something to eat.  Then she gave me $1.

 

Emotions:  grief at being abandoned, and at being robbed and betrayed, and then confusion at being lied to by the waitress.  Yep.  I even went BACK into the dream after waking up.  Woo.  Working on stuff here!

[JanCarol]

Oh, and I've decided to take a novel approach with the vibration / spasm in my bottom.

 

If my bottom wants to vibrate, I've put Buzz (my TENS device) on both side of my coccyx to BOOST the vibrations for a short time.  Maybe I can "help it along?" 

 

I've got it turned up to as intense as I can bear (4 of 5 on the settings).  Hunh.  I'll show that vibrating bum who's boss!      

[starburst]

Dear JanCarol I do hope you get your prolapse sorted out. I'm just wondering what on earth your bowel is doing making all those funny rumbling sounds. Thankfully (I think) my prolapse is on the other end of the spectrum. I thought sneezing in the shower and having to push my cervix back in was enough to warrant surgery of some sort but the gynaecologist told me it wasn't necessary. I think my pride played a big part in that. Whilst he had his glove covered hand inside my cervix he asked me to keep coughing. I was so damn determined to not wet myself in the process that I 'passed the test' and was told my prolapse was fine. I wet myself on the way out instead. 

[JanCarol]

Oh my Princess!  Maybe I should label this the "bring your TMI here!"  thread!  Wow.  My orthodoc has a treatment for that - wave pelvic floor machine thingy - that is non surgical.  I agree with your doc, if you were strong enough to "not be embarassed" then you shouldn't need surgery - just "more training."  

 

I've had friends who needed this surgery, then went to physio afterwards for months.  My doc sent me to physio, she said my muscle tone is fine.  I couldn't stand it, watching her on her FItBall telling me the correct posture and facial expression to poo!  When she whipped out the vaginal weights, I decided not to go back to her.  I just couldn't face vaginal weight training (sorry, guys).    (NOTE:  the site censor doesn't like abbreviations for genitals)

 

Doc might say that's why I prolapsed again, but the reason she got out the weights was because there wasn't really anything else she could do for me.  My muscles were strong (except where the surgery was), so she thought "make it stronger"  I still have the weight training kit.  Anyone need any vaginal weights?

 

Anyhow, I'm glad you didn't need the surgery!

 

Heh.  TMI central, here!  (hey, we have to laugh, right?  keeps us from screaming!)    

[Meimeiquest]

You are so funny! I think natural workouts should be sufficient . Sex is supposed to cure anything

[Meimeiquest]

One more thing.,

 

I haven't been impressed with the Walsh/Mensah expertise on gut health. I think they know it is an issue, but they don't know a lot more than that. Dr. Walsh kept meticulous records over decades, but this problem (at least on this scale) is relatively new, so I wonder if it sort of skews his results. Who knows. I asked my doc what he was taught by them about gut issues, and he said "Get it assessed." He is a huge proponent of the gut-brain connection but he refers the gut part out to others.

[melanie]

Hey Jan,

 

Your Fitbit Flex looks absolutely fantastic... I try to record my sleeping patterns on paper. Keep screwing my circadian rhythm though... Am an owl, unfortunately, not a lark...

 

One of the most respected pdocs in my country keeps saying: if you're an owl, you should stay an owl. What a load of BS. And the sunlight I miss? What about that? Wish I were a lark sooo much.

 

As to your Hubby snoring, it made me laugh... My Kitty sleeps with her head on my pillow. Sometimes I have to put her on an adjoining pillow, cause her snoring gets so loud... Even with the earplugs, I can hear it. But it's a sound I love. We sleep on this double marital bed, kind of funny. But that's how we live, just the two of us...

 

Don't know anything about colonoscopy. But I had three major surgeries in my lifetime. One thing I learnt is: always talk to the anaesthetist about all the meds you take. I didn't do it once and ended up vomiting non stop for two days and nights in a row. That was a terrible experience. I was lucky they had enough big plastic bags in the hospital.

 

Well, I should have a fourth surgery, but won't go for it, I'm afraid. Don't want to end up paralyzed...

 

And Tramadol is not such a great idea... it's good you're aware of it's addiction potential.

 

Take good care of yourself,

 

Mel

[JanCarol]

Melanie, taking notes is not as good as a tracker.  You make mistakes in those fuzzy hours between sleep and wake.  The only problem with the tracker is I have to remember to tap it to "put it to sleep" as it records different stuff from sleep vs. awake.

 

I am an owl, not a lark.  I feel my most intelligent time is at 2 am.  My "natural" sleep pattern is about 3 am - noon.  I was unable to adjust my sleep pattern without severe sleep deprivation (international travel). Even now, it is creeping later again, and I am resisting that creep, as it is healthier to be a daytime person.

 

There are studies done on metabolism and sleep which indicate that metabolic disorder (raises hand, yes, that's me) is worse in people who swing shift or sleep in the daytime - and these delayed cycle sleep people run more risk of cardiovascular disorders and Type II diabetes, among other things.  There's a million reasons to shift to daytime, and I scoff at those who say, "just shift by a 1/2 hour a day."  DOES NOT WORK for me.

 

What works for me is 36 hours up straight no sleep.  There is a clinic in Chicago which will help you do this.  If I try and do it on my own, I am not disciplined enough.  I will lose it, and go nap and ruin the deprivation. International travel - I usually get 2 hours sleep the night before a trip, and then only little 1-2 hour naps until arriving at destination.  Works great!  Like Peggy said, I just need to take a huge international trip every 6 months or so!  lol.

 

Hubby snoring is a leak in his CPAP mask.  It is not his natural snore.  Without his CPAP mask, I lose sleep waiting to hear him breathe.  I can hear his apneas, and they are disturbing.  The usual hiss and sigh of the CPAP is regular, like white noise, but I always put in earphones with music or lectures or hypnosis recordings to get to sleep.  But if there is anything wrong with the mask -his last mask was a nose mask only, and he would "snorkel" - half snore, half machine at irregular intervals and it would cause my brain zaps to flash.  This new leak (as long as the mattress is set up in the hall, I won't need it - I haven't needed it for 2 nights now!) is a huge vibration, like blowing into your hand.  It vibrates the mattress at irregular intervals and I can hear and feel it THROUGH the earphones.  This means I cannot sleep in bed.

 

But my kitty snores, too.  She snores so loud I can hear her in the next room.  She was feral as a kitten, I had to "tame" her with food, so now she is quite plump.  Is your kitty plump?  Would you like to hang out with other crazy cat ladies?  If so, go to http://www.unitedcats.com and show some photos of your kitty and pat other people's cats.  I'm JanCarol there, too.  If you like it, let me know, "friend" my cats and I'll introduce you to my crazy cat lady friends!

 

Here is my kitty, sitting on my lap in winter (she prefer's Daddy's lap, as my lap is too spastic!) - 

 

Can you see what a bossy girl she is?  She's the boss!

 

As for surgery, I've been under several times in my life.  I've never had problems with anesthesiologists - though - here is a frightening anesthesiologist tale.  I was going to the hospital to have anesthetic injected into my thoracic spine - by numbing the area for awhile, it gave me relief from crippling, chronic pain.  I got these shots 4-5 times.  I think Cali gets them now for her neck.

 

So there was only one anesthesiologist who did this in my town in Indiana.  An immigrant doctor (sorry, I try not to be prejudiced, but).  While he was preparing the needle he jabbed himself with it!  He went all loopy!  I'm already laying on the table with the marks on my back, and I have to trust him not to mess up (when injecting around nerves - very dangerous stuff).  I prayed and prayed (and I'm not a praying person) that this would turn out okay.  That was my last treatment from him.

 

A decade or more later, I learned that he was de-licensed or whatever the word is - for prescribing addictive drugs wantonly.  I knew some of the people who went to him for that (2 of them are dead from prescription Rx overdose).  I was glad to hear he was no longer licensed to practice.  But I wonder - where did he go next?  Because Doctors, they don't really stop practicing, do they?  They just move somewhere else (like Australia - ref: Jayant Patel) and take up their ugly practices again.  This is true for inappropriate sexual behaviour with patients, too.

 

Woohaaa, you brought up some nightmare stuff there!

 

Lastly, Tramadol.  Tramadol is evil.  It's not about the withdrawal for me.  If I am in pain, and I take tramadol, I am evil, angry, agitated and awful for at least 3 days.  Bad drug.  Bad!  I have a sheet of it from hubby's last surgery - I will give it to him for extreme pain, he doesn't react like I do.

 

Because it's "weak opiate," it is preferred here to opiates ("soooo addicting," you know, and yet, you can come off them in 2 weeks or less!).  My GP gave it to me for headaches, back when it was a new drug.  I was on effexor at the time.  OMG.  Awful, awful drug.  I looked it up, and went back to him and said, "BAD Doctor!  BAD!  LOOK at the MIMS - DO NOT PRESCRIBE FOR PEOPLE ON ANTIDEPRESSANTS!"  (MIMS is the Aussie PDR)  I made the doctor look at the MIMS and go, "oh my.  so it is!"  

 

LOL educating doctors for decades, now!  <3

[JanCarol]

MeiMei - collagen = cigarettes + lithium + vit deficiencies induced by all the drugs = collagen production impaired?

 

and Peggy:

After my prolapsed haemorrhoid surgery i asked my Dr how to stop it happening again and he said "don't get old - everything heads south"

 

Well, isn't that just like a doctor thing to say? 

 

To say that "this is normal depression" or "this is the way we age" 

 

When really - were people having so much dementia than before?  So much autism?  Is it increase in diagnoses?  Or a nutritionally sick toxic society getting sicker?  

 

I'm suspicious of all docs, and I'm especially suspicious of docs who blame everything on "aging," and "obesity."

 

MeiMei again:

Sex is supposed to cure anything 

 

Yuck!  Sorry, ever since my south went south I don't want anybody poking around down there.  Not even me!  Put me down as "iatrogenic asexual" thanks.

[peggy]

Well, isn't that just like a doctor thing to say? 

 

To say that "this is normal depression" or "this is the way we age" 

 

When really - were people having so much dementia than before?  So much autism?  Is it increase in diagnoses?  Or a nutritionally sick toxic society getting sicker?  

 

I'm suspicious of all docs, and I'm especially suspicious of docs who blame everything on "aging," and "obesity."

 

 

 

I understand that, but I think that it is entirely logical - we DO wear out as we age.  Our bones lose density, our gums shrink, our skin sags and wrinkles - all of course due to changes both internally (hormonally) and externally (sun and wear and tear)  

The average age of people is increasing - women go through menopause at around age 50 - if we live until average 85, that means we are living for 35 years without those lovely hormones that help our bones, skin and brain.

[JanCarol]

OK yes.  We do go south.

 

But a real doctor (in my little unicorn fantasy land) wouldn't say "we all age," but would be involved in the wellness of preventing the things that age.  How can we improve tissue elasticity, colon health, bone strength, emotional well being - now that we are living longer past menopause?

 

I've learned so much about this in the past 2 years.  Why aren't the doctors willing to talk about these things?  Oh yeah, because there are no crooked clinical trials showing that they work.....

 

Sigh.

[peggy]

i think in part because they are taught in a reductionist framework and not holistic - and that is particularly evident with specialists - however, we need specialists because they have the time to get their 10,000 hours up so they CAN be specialists - otherwise they would be too generalist (speaking purely in surgical terms here)

 

And also, not many people really want to learn what they can do to improve their health.  Having worked as a nurse for 30 years in the public system that is all too evident. Many people don't CARE that their poor diet and smoking and excess alcohol consumption has given them diabetes, cardiovascular disease, cancer or liver failure.  They are not really motivated to change. Here at SA, we are a minute microcosm of people willing to take charge of our health and question what doctors are telling us and are prepared to both take responsibility for how we are but also to take the lead in bringing about a better outcome for ourselves.  

[freespirit]

JC,

 

I've heard Lee Holden say that from a Chinese medicine perspective, we get healthier as we get older...partly, because you could potentially have a lifetime of doing qi gong. There's a predominate story in the west that everything goes to hell in a hand-basket as we get older.  Western medicine has zero interest in preventative health...because, there's no money for the pharmaceuticals in preventing disease. What would all those medical people do, if folks took better care of themselves.

 

I agree with Peggy..or at least that was my experience as an alternative practitioner too...most people aren't very interested in taking charge of their own health. There are probably a lot of reasons for that...but part of it is that we rely mostly on meds or things after the fact in western medicine. We are in 'instant' culture, taught to expect things to be fixed quickly, easily, and without personal effort.

[AliG]

 Jan,

 

This really is the  " T M I " thread  !!  LOL.        Just joking .

 

I hope you get everything , sorted.

 

I agree with Free.  We get conned . You can't " patent" healthy living & lifestyle  etc.   No money, ( in it )  therefore  - " no interest ". !

 

Hugs,

 

Ali.

[JanCarol]

Yah, Free - I like the Chinese medicine practice of paying when you are well.  When you are well, you pay the doc.

 

If you get sick, doc doesn't get paid because he (and you) failed to keep you well!

 

Thanks Ali.  When I hear "it all goes south" I think of all those ancient Okinawans in their 90's who could wipe the floor with me.

[MollyN]

^^ love it!