apace41: tapering Zoloft / sertraline

[bubble]

Hi Andy, and glad you are sleeping a bit better, like me. Not fun at all.

 

Regarding your question I have my theory. I don't claim it's right it's just something I trust. The way I see your situation is you started tapering probably too soon after the benzo taper. Your brain has a lot of catching up to do. You thought 5 months of holding were too long and you weren't feeling any progress. You started tapering again but things got worse, compounding by the slip in dosing.

 

For me it means that your brain doesn't agree with you that 5 months was long (enough). Sometimes we just have to hold and hold and hold because that is how much the brain needs to heal.

 

You are going through windows (you feel you are trending in the right direction) and waves (symptomsvincrease).

 

I don't see benefit in tapering while symptomatic regardless of how long the hold is. I don't see how tapering can result in anything but more symptoms. Maybe your thinking is influenced by benzo tapering which is again influenced by taper people of illicit drugs and other addictions wherevreceptors need to be 'stimulated' to escape the lull of addiction...

 

I think that brain remodelling theory puts a lot of faith into holding: this is the period when you are growing a new brain and not 'indulging your addiction'.

 

Just my 2 cents

[apace41]

I don't see benefit in tapering while symptomatic regardless of how long the hold is. I don't see how tapering can result in anything but more symptoms. Maybe your thinking is influenced by benzo tapering which is again influenced by taper people of illicit drugs and other addictions wherevreceptors need to be 'stimulated' to escape the lull of addiction...

 

Thanks so much for weighing in, Bubble!  I really appreciate your thoughts.

 

I tend to agree with the notion of holding until you feel better before tapering.  If anything, my thinking about possibly restarting a taper is informed by those on the site who have seen improvement while dropping lower in dosage.  I recognize, however, that most (all?) of them started the taper from a point of stability and it is then a matter of measuring the improvement rather than trying to catch up.  Since I have too many responsibilities and need to continue working as the sole earner in my family, I don't see much likelihood that I would begin tapering from a point of instability because of the fear of having it all go south on me.

 

I guess the other thought that keeps gnawing at me is how to determine if you've come to a point where the medicine has "turned" on you and is no longer simply ineffective but is instead toxic.  It is highly likely in my view that much of that sensation is emotionally driven and not a valid problem since you come to a place where you wake up and look at the medicine and think "I have to continue to put this poison in my body?"  However, I suppose there is always some chance that the system no longer wants the medicine badly enough that it creates adverse symptoms and the only way to deal with it is to get off it more rapidly.  I imagine that if I were in that place I would know it and not be able to function at work, etc.

 

The thought of trying to cross back to pills rather than liquid continues to dance around my head because (1) I've not felt great on the liquid (likely due to other causes some of which you mentioned) and (2) it's so much easier and less "horrible tasting."

 

 

Thanks again, Bubble.

 

Andy

[Shep]

I guess the other thought that keeps gnawing at me is how to determine if you've come to a point where the medicine has "turned" on you and is no longer simply ineffective but is instead toxic.  It is highly likely in my view that much of that sensation is emotionally driven and not a valid problem since you come to a place where you wake up and look at the medicine and think "I have to continue to put this poison in my body?"  However, I suppose there is always some chance that the system no longer wants the medicine badly enough that it creates adverse symptoms and the only way to deal with it is to get off it more rapidly.  I imagine that if I were in that place I would know it and not be able to function at work, etc.

 

 

 

 

I think you've still got a lot of balls up in the air - lingering benzo withdrawal mixed in with the Valerian taper mixed in with the AD taper. Mixed in with family, work, commuting. Yes, that's a lot to handle and it doesn't give you a lot of downtime from both external and internal pressures. 

 

Bubble wisely mentioned "Maybe your thinking is influenced by benzo tapering which is again influenced by taper people of illicit drugs and other addictions where the receptors need to be 'stimulated' to escape the lull of addiction..."  This is a great point. And it's where I made some major mistakes myself. I believe Dr. Ashton's first experiences with withdrawal came from opiate withdrawal research, and not all of that "translates" well into her benzo work (also, her clinic had a lot of people who weren't working, and that really makes a huge difference). I think your translation of "holding and staying functional" is wise and sound. I went the "crash and burn method" and really don't recommend it. I don't think at this point the AD is acting so much as a "poison" but simply keeping enough extra serotonin in motion so that you don't experience the crash effect. Like you said, you would know if it were an adverse symptom. I think even well before the time we heal, we become excellent readers of our mind / body due to this process. 

 

You're really doing an amazing job of balancing tapering, work, commuting, and family obligations. And if holding helps keep all of these balls in the air, then that sounds like an excellent plan.

 

Sending healing thoughts your way, Andy. This really does get better. 

[apace41]

Thanks as always, Shep.

 

I guess the problem I'm having is that I feel like I've been stuck in a pretty crappy "holding pattern" for quite some time (at best and a slow submerging at worst).  The desire to "DO SOMETHING" can be pretty overwhelming.  I recognize intellectually that "my brain is healing" and all that happy horses---t, but when you don't FEEL BETTER it's hard to accept.  Sometimes the need to vent is overwhelming so you come to the board and post a bunch of stuff so others can talk you off the ledge (figuratively thankfully in my case).

 

What I find particularly challenging is that I can look back a year let's say and feel like I'm much worse now than I was then.  This leads me to feel like I'm on a constant decline.  The reality is not nearly that simple.  If I look at March//April, I'm probably in a better place than I was then albeit more sensitized from all that has happened.  I am hoping that March/April was the "bottom of the parabola" and that I will slowly get better to a point of general stability where I can then restart my taper at a VERY slow rate.

 

We shall see how this plays out. 

 

It does get old day after day.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Shep]

I hear you. I'm by far more exhausted now than I was a year ago. So even though I'm seeing improvements even in sleep, I'm still exhausted at a level I can't really comprehend or articulate. The length of the journey becomes the weight of the journey. 

 

Sometimes I write out the things that have improved - definite memory improvements, concentration improvements, sleep improvements (even if it doesn't correlate with the high level of exhaustion), and major GI improvements. And that can help take some of the weight off. It's a mental thing, if that makes any sense. 

 

And don't forget the "benefits" of this hard journey - the ability to accept, the building up of coping skills like mindfulness, the ability to see ahead and to let go of the past. These are all major and shouldn't be discounted because they don't translate to a lower dose of medication. 

 

And to quote those on the forum who are advocates of the long hold - holding IS doing something. And every day you get up, go to work, take care of your family - you ARE doing something. 

 

Yes, you're doing quite a lot. 

[apace41]

Thank you, Shep.

 

I appreciate it very much.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[bromor]

Hi Andy. Been a couple of weeks since I've checked in on you. How are things? Sleeping a bit more/better hopefully ????

[apace41]

Thanks so much, B!  Very sweet of you.

 

I've been doing decently in the sleep department. Getting about 5+ most nights.  As much as 7.5 on a couple of nights. It is somewhat broken sleep and I have not been using the machine so I'm not sure how restorative it is, but it is a LOT better than wandering the house in the wee hours.  I have an appointment next Monday with a new sleep specialist to get a refresh on that issue and see whether CPAP is still in order.

 

Overall, I've had my share of ups and downs with some lingering health anxiety that comes and goes.  I'm still holding at 25mg all liquid waiting to have a solid run of stability to restart the taper.

 

Hope you are well.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Shep]

Hi, Andy. Good to see you posting an update, especially one that has 5+ hours of sleep! I wish it was more restorative, but it does sound like an improvement. 

 

Hope all goes well with the sleep specialist. 

 

Sending healing vibes your way. 

[apace41]

Thanks, Shep.

 

I've been laying low lately and not spending as much time posting (or moderating to be honest) because I've been in something of a funk.  I'm finding the whole process very frustrating of late.  I'm getting decent sleep (as near as I can tell) but I find that I'm really cycling very quickly from feeling fair to feeling crappy.

 

The good news -- my feeling really bad doesn't last too long.

The bad news -- my moments of feeling decent are extremely short

 

I find that I can go from feeling pretty well (last night I had some moments of positive thoughts and seeing a "good outcome" to all of this) to waking up feeling crap all over and thinking there is nothing positive.  I can cycle like that a couple of times during the day.  I suppose if the predominant "neutral state" was generally good it would be an improvement.  However, I would have to say my "default mode" is generally not very good.

 

All of this is, as you know, taking place while holding and not tapering.  Very troubling and makes me very concerned about how my body will react when/if I can start tapering again.

 

Just venting for the most part.

 

Sorry all.

 

Andy

[bromor]

Glad to hear your sleep has improved. It's a good thing you're going to see a new sleep specialist. My thought is that if your sleep improves (especially rem) your body will heal quicker.

 

On the funk, I think we can all understand. And I know that it's not recommended to use different supplements on here or that adrenal fatigue is real...... BUT, when I felt real improvement in my physical symptoms was when I started treating my adrenal fatigue. Just my opinion ????. Using DARE was the final step in really helping me to feel like I will overcome!

 

Anyway, I don't want to come across as being on a soapbox. We are certainly all different & react differently.

 

All my best to you!

[Altostrata]

This is a good development, Andy. Let's call it stabilization!

[apace41]

This is a good development, Andy. Let's call it stabilization!

 

I don't know, Alto.  I feel "unstable" pretty often, but, of course, you've seen WAY more of this than I have. 

 

Based on the little bit you know, would you suggest restarting the taper at this point, or holding a little while longer to see if this pattern continues and then starting it in a few weeks or a month?

 

Thanks for any thoughts,

 

Andy

[bubble]

I look forward to hearing to what Alto has to say.

 

When I read your posts I can aslo see you are stabilising in a typical windows and waves pattern which you call cycling. The fact that your sleep has improved so much is great. In my experience other things will follow through holding. As you know already I have problem understanding your urge to taper while symptomatic (outside the frame that we are all imaptient and woudl like to get off asap). It seems to me that you are still not convinced in the power and benefits of holding. When I look at your signature there is so much tapering: you came off benzo, you reduced your AD to 1/4 of your starting dose. You thought that 5 month hold didn't do much for you and you decided to cut despite the symptoms. There was a mistake involved but I'm not sure that even without that cuttingh however little wouldn't have increased the symptoms.

 

I would definitely hold (for many months actually) but that's just me, a believer in holding What do you think you will achieve by continuing to taper now?

[apace41]

As you know already I have problem understanding your urge to taper while symptomatic (outside the frame that we are all imaptient and woudl like to get off asap). It seems to me that you are still not convinced in the power and benefits of holding. When I look at your signature there is so much tapering: you came off benzo, you reduced your AD to 1/4 of your starting dose. You thought that 5 month hold didn't do much for you and you decided to cut despite the symptoms. There was a mistake involved but I'm not sure that even without that cuttingh however little wouldn't have increased the symptoms.

 

I would definitely hold (for many months actually) but that's just me, a believer in holding What do you think you will achieve by continuing to taper now?

 

Thanks, Bubble.  Not really a matter of being impatient to be honest.  More a matter of doing what is going to make me feel better and more able to live.  I've read many posts of people who feel "so-so" but feel a little better as they reduce the amount of the drug.  Of course, I recognize it is a very fine line and that tapering when unstable can lead to very bad results.  I understand that you have seen great benefit from holding so I appreciate your position.  At the end of the day, the goal is to get off the meds so it doesn't seem to me like my question is super-aggressive. 

 

I think it is less that I underestimate the value of holding than it is that I underestimate the impact on my CNS that the benzo taper and other cuts have caused.  Your highlighting that for me is valuable.  I suppose they are different sides of the same coin when you think about it, so I do appreciate where you are coming from. 

 

Maybe on some level it does just come back to an innate desire to get off the medicine.  That combined with the fact that liquid sertraline is acidic, burns when you take it and tastes like crap. 

 

Of course, those are minor inconveniences.

 

Thanks again for your input.  Always valuable.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[wareagle82]

Hi Andy

I am somewhat experienced in sleep issues as I once had moderate sleep apnea.  AHI=29 at its worst. 

 

Acupuncture totally remedied it.  My last sleep study (april 2016) showed AHI=2.

 

My sleep doctor said acupuncture is rarely used in treatment, but there are a couple of studies that show quite a bit of efficacy.  It seems to be a bit binary, however.  If it works it is immediate and completely resolved.  If it doesn't work well you aren't any worse off.

 

It may be worth looking into--CPAP sucks.  Sleeping poorly also sucks.  Sleep is also the healing time for your body, so it makes sense that your quality of sleep is very important.

 

Best to you, and let me know if there is anything I can do besides send up prayer.

 

Steve

[Shep]

Hi, Andy.

 

Where are you in your valerian taper? Do you feel you're making some progress in that regard? 

 

I would consider the valerian taper to be comparable to a benzo taper at this point, due to your destabilized CNS. Knowing that you're making progress in a supplement taper may also help take some of the weight off psychologically. 

 

I still have very significant benzo withdrawal symptoms at 26 months from my last benzo. Granted, my tapers were way too fast and involved 2 benzos and a z-drug, but many people on the benzo forums who do reasonable tapers of just one benzo end up symptomatic for 2 or 3 years. So part of the "waiting to stabilize" is coming from multiple factors - benzo, valerian, SSRI, and the simple fact that this entire process is exhausting. 

 

You're 20 months off benzos and I really think you're going to see some major symptom improvements as you head into that third year off. 

 

From my own experience and everything I've read, the SSRI / benzo combo is a rough ride to get off of. I think you're doing an amazing job of working, taking care of family, and learning new coping skills. 

 

Sorry I'm not much help in knowing when to re-start your taper, but I can send some healing vibes your way.

[apace41]

It may be worth looking into--CPAP sucks.  Sleeping poorly also sucks.  Sleep is also the healing time for your body, so it makes sense that your quality of sleep is very important.

 

Thanks, Steve.

 

I will be getting a new baseline hopefully from the sleep doc starting next week.  I do acupuncture weekly but not specifically focused on sleep stuff.  Was there some kind of special protocol you had the acupuncturist deal with?  Any thoughts on that appreciated.

 

Thanks for the prayers.  I'll take whatever help I can get.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[apace41]

Hi, Shep.  Some reactions to your post.

 

Where are you in your valerian taper? Do you feel you're making some progress in that regard? 

 

Channeling my best Zero Mostel, "A funny thing happened on the way to my Valerian taper."  I cut it down by 10% and it was fine.  When I went to cut the next 10% it was in another wave of insomnia so I kept it at 10% and when the wave passed I found myself doing much better sleeping so I didn't want to rock the boat.  I'm still taking 90% of the original Valerian dose and it "ain't broke" so I'm not fixing it now.  There will be a time to do that in the future I imagine.  This might well mean that Valerian was not as big an issue for me or that 90% is the "right" place for me to be now.

 

I would consider the valerian taper to be comparable to a benzo taper at this point, due to your destabilized CNS.

 

I'm kind of scared to fool with it right now.  Once I'm in a position to do something, I suspect I'll go for the SSRI on the same theory we typically coach people to drop that med before a benzo.

 

So part of the "waiting to stabilize" is coming from multiple factors - benzo, valerian, SSRI, and the simple fact that this entire process is exhausting. 

 

Your point is well-taken and serves to reemphasize what Bubble said above.  I think the exhaustion is a better concept for me than impatience.  I know your story so I'm probably "barking up the wrong tree" given how long you've been sick from meds, but I can't really remember "feeling well" between being on them and trying to get off them.  It IS exhausting and I suppose that exhaustion breeds impatience of a kind -- impatience to get on with the chance to REALLY LIVE.

 

You're 20 months off benzos and I really think you're going to see some major symptom improvements as you head into that third year off. 

 

From your lips to G-d's ears.  Thank you, Shep.

 

From my own experience and everything I've read, the SSRI / benzo combo is a rough ride to get off of. I think you're doing an amazing job of working, taking care of family, and learning new coping skills.

 

I appreciate that, Shep.  Kind words.  Sometimes it feels like I'm floundering so hearing it from others is a big help.

 

Sorry I'm not much help in knowing when to re-start your taper, but I can send some healing vibes your way.

 

Au contraire, Shep.  Your posts  are ALWAYS a huge help on many levels.

 

Thank you as always,

 

Andy

[wareagle82]

Hi Andy

 

I am attaching the study here  https://web.archive.org/web/20111105183435/https://www.cebp.nl/vault_public/filesystem/?ID=3048

 

 

 

Apparently the hypoglossal nerve is stimulated by acupuncture in a way that causes the tongue to move forward, thus preventing it from obstructing the airway.

 

Maybe sharing the points with your practitioner will allow you to see if it helps.  In my case it was immediate relief.

 

Prayers,

 

Steve

[Altostrata]

Andy, I agree with bubble, I would hold on the drugs for a while. Then I'd work on the valerian.

 

Thanks for that info, wareagle.

[apace41]

Hi Andy

 

I am attaching the study here  https://web.archive.org/web/20111105183435/https://www.cebp.nl/vault_public/filesystem/?ID=3048

 

 

 

Apparently the hypoglossal nerve is stimulated by acupuncture in a way that causes the tongue to move forward, thus preventing it from obstructing the airway.

 

Maybe sharing the points with your practitioner will allow you to see if it helps.  In my case it was immediate relief.

 

Prayers,

 

Steve

 

Great stuff, Steve. Thanks very much.

 

Andy

[apace41]

Andy, I agree with bubble, I would hold on the drugs for a while. Then I'd work on the valerian.

 

Thanks for that info, wareagle.

 

I think I'm with you on the holding part, Alto.  Not sure I'm there on the Valerian as the next place to go.  Seems to me as I've found some stability in sleep I'm concerned with touching that one as it could be providing support in a "mini-benzo" way. 

 

I would have thought keeping that in place and working on the A/D would be the next logical step.  What am I missing?

 

Thanks,

 

Andy

[apace41]

So, time for a quick update:

 

Had a pretty decent period for the past several weeks.  Window wasn't exactly wide open, and it wasn't without it's share of pane (see what I did there? ), but it was definitely a step in the right direction. 

 

On the positive side, sleep was pretty good, head was more or less clear, handled a fair amount of stress, and I connected with people a little more than I had for a while.  I had a couple of moments where I found myself actually looking forward to some thing and thinking about making plans. Best of all, my dizziness seemed to be far less of a bother during the period.

 

On the less positive, still having a lot of aches and pains, particularly in the hip and groin area (hopefully withdrawal and not arthritis), still dealing with a fair amount of dp/dr which waxes and wanes but never leaves, and periodic bouts of health anxiety kicked in based on the various body pains. 

 

Overall, if that was to be my "withdrawal normal" as Tom (Brassmonkey) so elegantly described, I could live with that and then move back toward the taper with the expectation of more healing over time.

 

Alas, in the immortal words of "Blood Sweat and Tears", what goes up... especially in this hideous and insane process.

 

Midday yesterday I could sense things starting to turn a little.  Felt some anxiety creeping back in and then a surge of dizziness really took me by storm.  By the time I left work and got home, I was in a far less optimistic mood than I had been for the prior period.  Over the course of the night things deteriorated and I had all kinds of crazy symptoms that only my board family can relate to, including -- burning and tingling in various parts of the body, sweating, roving pain and discomfort between the shoulder blades, into the neck, down the arms, etc.  Thoughts bouncing around in my head which included people I didn't even know.  Flashes of light when I closed my eyes -- just kind of moving around behind the closed eyes.  All weird stuff and things I don't ordinarily get.  Anxiety level was really high.

 

Needless to say, hard time getting to sleep.  Got an hour and then woke bolt upright.  Was able to get back and get another 3 hours before another rude awakening.  Got one more hour along the way so it wasn't a total loss but was not in any way restorative.

 

Feeling a little less anxious at work but definitely in a lower place than the past couple of weeks. 

 

Hoping this is just a little "mini-wave" and I can return to the prior level.

 

Just keeping track of it as things go along.

 

An SA friend sent me the Patterns of Recovery video

 

https://youtu.be/KQtO6HXJfjw

 

While I've seen that video many times, it was a great reminder of how crazy this process is and that I am not alone.

 

Best to all,

 

Andy

[Shep]

So, time for a quick update:

 

Had a pretty decent period for the past several weeks.  Window wasn't exactly wide open, and it wasn't without it's share of pane (see what I did there? ), but it was definitely a step in the right direction. 

 

 

 

Lol! Yep, I see what you did.    This sounds really good, definitely a step in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

Best of all, my dizziness seemed to be far less of a bother during the period.

 

 

This is huge. I remember you had some major concerns over dizziness, so I'm very happy to read this. Even though it didn't last, it sounds like you had one of those "glimpses" of real healing, the kind that goes on past withdrawal, past the windows and waves. When we can finally say, "I made it through". 

 

I get those "glimpses" from my dp/dr. The dp/dr is still there, but it's enough of a break to give me hope that it's all temporary. 

 

 

 

 

Thoughts bouncing around in my head which included people I didn't even know.  Flashes of light when I closed my eyes -- just kind of moving around behind the closed eyes.  All weird stuff and things I don't ordinarily get.  Anxiety level was really high.

 

 

I hate the uninvited strangers, but as frightening and anxiety-ridden as this is, you seem to be at a very high level of peace and acceptance of it all. Hope this wave doesn't last long and you're back to that partial window, or better yet, a full one. 

 

 

[apace41]

Thanks as always, Shep. 

 

Even when I've managed to drive away the others who follow me, you still respond.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[apace41]

I am posting this here for those who follow my thread but will also post in one of the insomnia threads.  On August 8-15 there will be an online summit on Sleep.  Free registration to listen on line. 

 

http://sleepsuccesssummit.com/

 

Andy

[Altostrata]

Andy, not sure if I mentioned this before, but have you seen a physical therapist for the pain in hip and groin? Sounds like it could be related to posture while sitting.

[apace41]

Thanks, Alto.  I did that at first.  I think it has a combination of structural, psychological and withdrawal roots.

I'm seeing a chiropractor and she helps to some degree.

 

Thanks,

 

Andy

[brassmonkey]

You haven't driven us away Andy, we're just waiting to pounce. lol

 

I had a lot of lower back and hip pain during my taper.  ATM it isn't bothering me and I hope it won't come back. I'm pretty sure some of it was WD relate, but I learned that a lot of the hip pain was coming from the way I was walking. At work it was always short choppy steps; step, stop, twist, bend.  The work triangle is a great concept for production but it can really tear up the person stuck in it.  Similar movement patterns also showed up outside of work, while shopping, waiting in line at the theater, all that sort of thing.  It seemed that I could never take a proper step or really stretch my legs so to speak.  I'm slowly working on getting some time to walk properly and rebuild the muscle memory and strength, which seems to be helping. It's very unpredictable as to if I can make it around the block with out pain, some days it's no problem, others I can't make it down the drive and back. but things are improving.

[bromor]

I'm still here stalking you! ???? ha! Just don't check in all that often. I see a chiro as well ~ have had lots of muscle/back issues. Which, crazily enough, started getting better when I supported my gall bladder, liver, adrenals & changed how I ate. Interesting topic on "nutrition response testing"

anyway, aren't muscle aches & pains a side effect of actually taking Zoloft?

 

Glad to hear you had a window & think you are quite punny...

[nz11]

Havent been stalking  and pouncing so much lately....glad to read of windows and sleep seminar sounds interesting.

[Altostrata]

Withdrawal can make us hypersensitive to little physical problems that had been lurking all along.

[apace41]

You haven't driven us away Andy, we're just waiting to pounce. lol

 

I had a lot of lower back and hip pain during my taper.  ATM it isn't bothering me and I hope it won't come back. I'm pretty sure some of it was WD relate, but I learned that a lot of the hip pain was coming from the way I was walking. At work it was always short choppy steps; step, stop, twist, bend.  The work triangle is a great concept for production but it can really tear up the person stuck in it.  Similar movement patterns also showed up outside of work, while shopping, waiting in line at the theater, all that sort of thing.  It seemed that I could never take a proper step or really stretch my legs so to speak.  I'm slowly working on getting some time to walk properly and rebuild the muscle memory and strength, which seems to be helping. It's very unpredictable as to if I can make it around the block with out pain, some days it's no problem, others I can't make it down the drive and back. but things are improving.

 

Thanks as always for your input, Tom.  Some of your posts on different threads have been "keepers" for me and I refer back to them from time to time.  Your wisdom in this area is greatly appreciated.

 

Knowing I'm not alone in this regard is very helpful.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[apace41]

 started getting better when I supported my gall bladder, liver, adrenals & changed how I ate. Interesting topic on "nutrition response testing"

anyway, aren't muscle aches & pains a side effect of actually taking Zoloft?

 

Thanks, B. 

 

Is the nutrition response testing what you did to determine the things you needed for support of the adrenals, etc.?

 

Best,

 

Andy

[apace41]

Havent been stalking  and pouncing so much lately....glad to read of windows and sleep seminar sounds interesting.

 

Good to hear from you, NZ.

 

Hope you are doing well.

 

Best,

 

Andy