EdinburghGuy: Dilemma, tapering 10 years fluoxetine, dr wants me on venlafaxine

[EdinburghGuy]

I was on prozac for ten years. gained weight and felt very sleepy, tired and slow on it (didn't realize it could have been prozac - dr says people lose weight on it) (had panic attacks once and a while in stressful situations) - was told I need to be on it long term.

 

However, tired of weight issues and GP suggested if I want to go off them. 2 month taper (only side effect was few weeks of itchy feeling and spots on stomach. started to exercise, diet, lose weight. I realize now that wasn't long enough but felt ok for about another 5 months.

 

 

...Was ok for 5 months and then HUGE panic and anxiety now.

 

Had some life triggers - felt emotional about the past, graving etc. low mood. 

 

insomnia (gradually built up - anxiety in morning first, now all the time - have some windows of normal towards the evening). Deep depression (which I didn't have before) but since reinstated Prozac it is a bit better. The constant adrenaline is the thing messing me up the most right now.

 

I started taking 20mg again, (wasn't allowd 10mg) - dr said no point, no benefit.

 

After emergency a and e, Psychiatrist rally want me on Venlafaxine (Effexor). I hear so many horror stories of this drug I am scared to take it. took one yesterday and vision was blurry so stopped. back on Prozac week 2.

 

Dr don't believe withdrawals etc. (websites like this) tell me to stop looking online. shut up and  take the effexor. they say it is my mental disorder relapse. In a dilemma as to what to do, listen to docs, or try and ride it out with Prozac? I don't want to take effexor and have even more withdraws etc. (never experience brain zaps, vision problems, weird dreams etc.) but need to be stable, can't sleep or function properly because of constant severe anxiety.

 

 

Scared and not sure what to do. If I could just get rid of the anxiety and sleep problem. I'd have a chance. I probably have pssd too, but that is another problem for later. At the moment can't function, just want to stabilize. This is hell. If I can survive this point would want to try the slow tapper later too. but getting rid of this constant panic and insomnia is my first priority. Any ideas welcome.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, EG.

 

What happened when you took 20mg Prozac? How did your symptoms change?

 

Please read Tips for tapering off Prozac (fluoxetine)

[EdinburghGuy]

I still have panic most of the time, windows of no panic around 6pm. Think it did imporve a little and my mood improved a little but comes in waves. Gonna be week 3, says 6 weeks to take effect. but I went against my dr who wanted me on venlafaxine. Really scared of it. Don't now what to do. Even though really depressed now, If I could sleep and get rid of the panic maybe I could maybe recover etc. I am just sick of these meds and don't want to make things worse. 

[Altostrata]

What time of day do you take Prozac? Do you take any other drugs?

 

To help us out, see these instructions Please put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature

 

[EdinburghGuy]

Today was a bit better, no idea what tonight/tomorrow holds. Took some benzos for a few days but they made me worse and scared of them, stopped them. took 1 effexor and was scared so stopped. take zopiclone though these last weeks to sleep most nights, need to stop. Also a magnesium, b vitamin this morning and felt better today.

 

I take prozac in the morning.

 

35, parents kept me alive. Heartbroke, wish I never took this damn drug. Hope I can have the stregth to do this.

 

Dr thinks it is relapse, if I can get 'stable'. will need to do cbt and ocupational therapy. If I feel time is right will do long slow tapper.

[Altostrata]

Quite frequently, doctors misdiagnose withdrawal syndrome as "relapse."

 

You have been taking 20mg Prozac for 2 weeks, correct? How much zopiclone are you taking, how often? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

You have withdrawal syndrome from going off Prozac too fast. Generally, reinstating a small amount will reduce these symptoms. Sometimes this will work but either you're taking too high a dose, causing anxiety, etc., or it's not working at all.

 

To test if you're taking too high a dose of Prozac, you might reduce to 15mg and see if your symptoms reduce. This topic explains how to customize a dose of Prozac Tips for tapering off Prozac (fluoxetine)

 

It's also possible you're getting anxiety rebound during the day from the zopiclone at night. If you've been taking it frequently, you may be physiologically dependent on it.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Altostrata
updated

[Rosetta]

ED,

 

Hi.  I'm sorry you are suffering.

 

You are right to avoid the Effexor and the benzo.  I had a bad reaction to the benzo after I started WD, too.  Effexor will not replace Prozac when a person is dependent on Prozac.  Please continue to hold firm with your doctor that you will not take Effexor or benzos.  Also, Effexor is reported to be much more difficult to taper than many other drugs.  Adding a benzo to your problem is likely to make it worse, too.

 

Can you tell us how many nights you have taken the zopiclone?  If you are not sure maybe you can check when you got the prescription and count the pills?  The mods will need this info, too.  Would you please add this drug to the list under your posts (it's called your drug signature).  The mods need to know when you started zopiclone and how many nights you took it in a row, too.  Thanks.

 

I hope you feel better soon, Rosetta

[EdinburghGuy]

ok, the effexor was just one tab, wish i never took it. Zopiclone is smallest dose. a few weeks. Will try to stop it.

 

Showed this to my mum about reducing prozac and she got mad. Think I might just have to take the 20mg for dr, parents sake. Don't know who to trust, who to believe. 

 

[Altostrata]

Sorry, I misunderstood about the Effexor, adjusted what I said above.

 

If you're 35, why are you asking your parents how much Prozac to take? If 20mg is too much for you, you won't feel right.

[Rosetta]

ED,  

 

I understand that you don't know who to trust.  That is common. It's understandable.  It's natural.  It took me weeks of reading this forum and trying to work out what I believed before I could accept that the doctors do not understand what they are doing when a patient is in antidepressant withdrawal.  You don't have weeks like I did.  Why? Because you have reinstated the drug at a high dose.  That might work out for you, but if it doesn't you can't go back in time.  Reinstating at a dose that is too high is a recipe for disaster.  The only byway to know that it is too high is to take it at that dose and suffer the consequences.  There is another route, ED.  (I had weeks because I did not reinstate at all.  So, I did not take the risk of a bad reaction.)

 

These drugs are still "new."  By that I mean that the research into long term use of them has never been done.  The studies usually stop after 12 weeks.  The issue of withdrawal is not well researched at all.  A few scientists have tried to come up with theories and do very small studies, but the truth is that we ARE the experiment.  The pharmaceutical companies fund the studies, and they do not want their studies to show that withdrawal exists.  Therefore, they do not do the studies.  Besides it would cost millions to do the studies.  So, you and I ARE the experiment.  These drugs should not be used for more than 3 months because there is no research indicating that they are safe past that point.  The doctors are relying on the fact that no research shows the drugs to be unsafe past that point.  Isn't that ridiculous?  It is the opposite of what should be considered when deciding to use the drugs long term.

 

Fortunately, back in 2011, Altostrata started this website.  The information gathered here by her and all the moderators and members is one of the most comprehensive anywhere.  In regard to the 20 mg, you should read about how, once a person is in WD, reinstating the drug at a dose that is too high will risk severe problems that make WD worse.  The thread on reinstatement and the thread on kindling are important reading.  

 

Since the New York Times article last month about antidepressant withdrawal, the interest in this website has increased.  All the moderators are volunteers -- unpaid and in WD themselves or recovered for a little while.  You will have to try to read here and educate yourself about this syndrome.  No one will be able to spoon feed you the information you need to trust Alto.  I'm sorry.  However, I urge you to give her advice a shot while you read here and educate yourself enough to realize that she is right.

 

That said, you can trust Altostrata.  She is probably the most knowledgable person alive regarding WD syndrome.  She has many, many doctors who agree with her about various aspects of WD.  They may not agree with her on everything, but many agree with her "harm reduction" approach to WD.  Part of that is that reinstating a drug must be done very carefully, in small amounts and quite slowly.  Yes, you will feel bad and have anxiety while you wait to "stabilize."  This is important: if you might have a bad reaction to reinstatement, being on a very small dose will make that reaction less likely and much less severe.  (Harm reduction.  You should know that 20 mg is 4 times the amount of Prozac that should be prescribed.  The original research prior to Prozac's introduction indicated the max dose was 5 mg.  The pharmaceutical company made 20 mg pills anyway.  (As to why, I'll let you guess.))

 

I have tried to put a lot of information from all over the site on my thread.  My thread shows my journey through my education about WD, and some of the pitfalls of WD.  I realized I was very sick about 5 months after I quit Zoloft.  You did well for 5 months?  Reinstating at that time is tricky and requires a very small dose.  I did not reinstate because of the risk of a bad reaction, but you have, and, if you ask me, your dose is too high for reinstatement after 5 months.  Based on what I know, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by starting low and going slowly up in dose until you find the right reinstatement amount.  You can break a 20 mg pill in half, I hope.  It would be better if you started at 5 mg or less, and that would you require dissolving 10 mg in water and taking part of the liquid.

 

You cannot let your parents decide for you.  If you are 35, they will not be able to care for you indefinitely if you end up in a 10 year nightmare of taking drugs that continually harm your CNS leaving you continuously disabled.  You need to start getting well now.  The way to get well is to avoicd d additional harm to your CNS and to start working toward getting off Prozac.  

 

I will try to find some links for you to read about reinstatement, kindling and why WD syndrome causes anxiety.

 

Rosetta

 

[Rosetta]

 

 

[Rosetta]

 

[Rosetta]

Kindling can happen from talking too much of the original drug when reinstating once withdrawal is all ready happening.  I believe that what happened to me is that I was in WD and then my drug was switched.  With each increase of the dose of Zoloft there was kindling.  Here is the thread on kindling:

 

 

[Rosetta]

 

 

There.  That is all I can do for you, ED.  

 

There is a thread called "one theory of antidepressant withdrawal" by Altostrata that I recommend, and there is information on my thread about the glutamate-GABA malfunction that helps to explain in more detail what is going on with your CNS to cause anxiety.  Essentially, a theory exists that the discontinuation of Prozac left your brain without the drug that it had become used to using to keep your mood stable.  This may have destabilized your nervous system, and your body is not making or using GABA properly.  Something sent your system into the high alert mode, and it is not calming down quickly the way it would if you had not

quit Prozac.  Each morning when cortisol rises to wake you up, your body is thrown into high alert and it stays that way for hours and hours because your body isn't operating properly to calm your system.  This malfunction is unlikely to be corrected by a higher dose of Prozac than you took prior to withdrawal; it is more likely to kindle your system and hurt you more.  In fact, at this point, even 10 mg of Prozac is likely to be too much.  I'm sorry you are in this position.  I know your suffering all too well.

 

I'm getting very tired of seeing people come to this site in such agony and hearing that their doctors are uninformed and are therefore making dangerous prescribing decisions.  While I understand why spouses and parents are trusting the doctors, it is tragic to me that they push their spouses and children into relying on doctors who are dangerously ignorant about antidepressant  withdrawal syndrome.  This causes such pain and suffering for both the patient and the family while the doctor goes on his merry way completely abdicating his role as the caretaker of the patient's nervous system.  That your mother became angry with you is something that I can understand, but it makes me terribly sad.  She is afraid, and so are you, I know, but you are both making a tragic mistake.  I hope that the 20 mg doesn't hurt you.  Please, please don't raise the dose again.  My God, you were only on 10 mg to begin with!!!  My heart aches for you.

 

Peace, Rosetta

[EdinburghGuy]

Thank you for your reply. I am listening to my parents and dr etc. as I would have been dead by now, they are keeping me alive from suicide. They are looking after me. I felt ok today, will keep trying with 20mg and see. Things did improve after re-instating (windows of normal etc.) I don't know what to do. I appreciate your help and advice but let me see, I've come this far. Will stop posting for a while as it adds to my anxiety. If I improve/get worse ill update later. I hope you can understand the situation I am in. Pray for everyone on this site.

[EdinburghGuy]

I was on 40mg for 10 years. not 10. so 20mg is a lower dose for me.

[EdinburghGuy]

Thank you Rosetta. This situation is bad (I think you understand). will see how things go.

[FarmGirlWorks]

33 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

While I understand why spouses and parents are trusting the doctors, it is tragic to me that they push their spouses and children into relying on doctors who are dangerously ignorant about antidepressant  withdrawal syndrome.  This causes such pain and suffering for both the patient and the family while the doctor goes on his merry way completely abdicating his role as the caretaker of the patient's nervous system.  That your mother became angry with you is something that I can understand, but it makes me terribly sad.

Hi there. Just piping in that @Rosetta has given you excellent guidance and resources here >>> use them. I see the biggest issue you may have is trusting yourself and what you are learning and realizing that while your parents may have your best interests at heart (the doctor not so much, and, if possible, I'd find a new one), you are going to have to summon the courage to do this on your own. And you have it or you wouldn't be here and resisted the poison of Effexor. It may mean taking a lower dose of Prozac in private and pretending that you are taking the full dose to your parents whom I assume you live with. Tell your doctor that you are taking full dose (dangerous!) to get prescriptions. Take your body and your health into your own hands. Nobody else will or can do it for you.

[Rosetta]

I completely understand the difficult position you have encountered.  Please do not feel that you must do as I (or anyone else) recommends in order to use this site.  It is impossible to absorb all the info here quickly.  

 

Yes, they are keeping you from suicide.  I understand that situation, trust me.  However, if you do not get better, please reconsider.

 

Could you put in your signature the fact that you took 40 mg?  That will save a lot of confusion for moderators looking at your posts.  They rely on that info being correct.  I hope that that fact will be what makes the difference for you and that 20 mg is not too much.  Please let us know how you are doing.

 

By th way, avoid adrenaline based numbing agents at the dentist.  They can increase the misery of WD.  Many people develop bruxism (teeth grinding) in WD and need fillings.  Then, the adrenaline based numbing agent kindles the CNS.  There is a non-adrenaline type agent that can be used.  Insist upon it.

 

Good luck. R

 

 

[Kostas]

Hi, 

Everybody is trying to offer his help, based on his own personal experience, and the many hundreds of testimonials made here. 

However offering something from my personal story, I can say that I was able to reinstate back to my original dose of 20 mg citalopram, even a year off the drug and stabilized, twice. 

Off course all these happened before knowing about the WD syndrome, which only I guessed the last time a weaned off very very gradually, from pure instinct! 

I discovered this very helpful site after being off the drug for 4 years, and having then weird symptoms and not knowing what was going on. 

Experience gained here, convinced me to continue being off the drug, and gradually feeling well again, although quite shocked! 

[EdinburghGuy]

Screamed at nurse this morning. trying to force effexor and benzos. I want to cry but can't on prozac. Told to stay off internet. Sites like this. Hell. I'm sick trying to beat panic disorder and the only help the nhs give is drugs. I'm so screwed.

[Rosetta]

ED,

I understand your frustration.  I'm going to write something that I know you are aware of, but it may remind you: You would be better off if you can control any behavior that might cause you to be force medicated.  Try to pretend being calm when you see them.  I would not talk to any doctors or nurses about the information you read here.  They will not agree, and it only makes things harder for you.

 

Are you in a hospital or did you go to a clinic when you saw the nurse?

 

You are not screwed.  Stay with Prozac, and you will have the best chance of being ok.  It's going to take time, but if you can be strong and refuse to take the stronger and more disabling drugs, you will begin to heal.  

 

How is it going with the zopiclone?  Do you know whether you are hooked on it?  What happens if you don't take it?  Do you get any sleep?  If you find that you need it that's the way it is, but if you are not hooked, that would be good.

 

Rosetta

[EdinburghGuy]

they visited me at home, panic all day today. I had panic sleep last night without sleeping pill. hard to describe, half sleep half panic. felt better yesterday but today was hell. I just don't know what to do. Wish could just feel better. don't know who to trust. So much pain. Anyway, will stop posting for a while.

[Rosetta]

***I hope a mod will chime in about your reaction to skipping the zopiclone dose.***. If you are hooked it's probably better to take it, but after only two weeks you might be able to ditch it.  It's tough to tell if lack of sleep means you are hooked because lack of sleep is a symptoms of WD from Prozac, too.  It's supposed to be a non-benzodiazepine drug, but I have no idea what that means for your situation.  Anyone have any info on "non-benzodiazepines?"

 

Whew!  It's very important to stay out of the hospital where they can drug you against your will.  It's very important to avoid new drugs when in your condition.

 

Ok, if you need to stop posting that's ok.  People do that when they feel overwhelmed.  

 

It's very confusing to feel better and then get worse.  We are not accustomed to having recovery from an illness go that way, but brain injuries heal that way.  This is not a brain injury in the traditional sense, but it heals the same way.  

 

I felt less afraid after I found this site and that others were experiencing the same problems, but they were healing and some were completely healed.  You are not alone.  You are not doomed, and there is a lot of hope for you.  To understand why you get better and then worse (when you are up to it) read here:

 

 

 

There are doctors in the UK who know about antidepressant withdrawal, but I know it's difficult to choose a doctor in your system.  You can read the books and articles they have written.  See riskRx which is supported by David Healy.  See anything by Dr Glenmullen or Joanna Moncreif.

 

Peace, Rosetta

[Songbird]

On 5/7/2018 at 4:55 AM, EdinburghGuy said:

Zopiclone is smallest dose. a few weeks.

 

Hello, EdinburghGuy.  When you say smallest dose, do you mean you take a whole tablet, or a half?  Are they 7.5mg tablets?

 

Have your symptoms improved since reinstating Prozac (compared with before you reinstated)?

[EdinburghGuy]

They were full 7.5mg tablets. I took a box, can't remember how much a week or mores worth. off it now. I sleep but have panic middle of night and when wake up at 5/6ish. but this is better than it was, at least I sleep now. Symptoms have improved since Prozac reinstatement but i'm still not normal - my main problem is anxiety and panic (had really bad depression this time - could have been because of insomnia, benzos, and just life + withdrawal/relapse etc..) depression has improved since reinstatement but not normal.

 

I'm done with these meds though, would rather suffer or just die than take more of this crap. will still take the 20mg prozac to try and stabilize more. Refused the effexor (only took 1 tablet) and didn't take any more benzos offered (had some diazapam which made me worse, and I refused to open clonazapam box i was prescribed). 

 

Prozac 20mg and some magnesium vitamin is the only thing I am on right now. My widows of normal are usually 6pm. some days are more normal too.

 

I know people here are in a worse situation than me, but I'm suicidal though, even if I fix this panic issue and have normal windows etc. my life is a complete mess, don't have hope even though I am improving. 35, lost job, no partner, back in with parents, weight issues, parents are old, just overwhelmed with problems (on top of this health crisis) and regret taking this crap for 10 years - how much weight I've gained, how lethargic I was all these years. Feel my life is ruined. Worry about pssd too. I had erections while half asleep after reinstating so maybe it will be better once anxiety goes, but no partner and interest to even think about sex right now. Just feel weaker willed compared to people going through benzo hell etc. What to life for in this cruel world? So lonely and don't feel understood, dying for companionship, love, friends that just understand this - Probably going through an existential crisis too. In the darkest time god, meditation, art died, they were my coping strategies and disappeared when I needed them the most.

 

People avoid me now, just hope I will get better as I refused the dr's help and shouted at the nurse. People are annoyed at me for looking at the internet. Conspiracy theories etc. Who's right, who's wrong?

 

Trying to educate myself but I don't trust anybody, want off prozac so will want to try the long slow tapper mentioned here at some point, but not now. Want to do CBT and other non medicine methods first. Make sense of all this.

 

Withdrall vs relapse:  I still am unsure with my experience. But will keep trying to fight non the less.

[Songbird]

Well done for standing up for yourself and not allowing yourself to be badgered into risky med switches!  I'm very glad to hear you are having some improvement, especially that you've been able to sleep without needing to take a sleep med.  I think your plan to keep your dose consistent and wait to stabilise is sensible.  The improvements you have had so far are a good sign.  Try to be patient and let your system work towards stabilising. 

 

The thoughts and fears you've been experiencing (feeling that your life is ruined, etc.) are fairly normal in withdrawal.  Many of us here have felt similar at times.  Remember, thoughts and feelings can change - when you have more improvement, things may begin to look a little brighter.  It's hard when you don't have people around you who understand what you are going through, but you do have people here who understand.  We are actually real people, not "the internet"!

 

Please keep us updated, Edinburgh Guy.

[Songbird]

You may be interested in this topic about non-med techniques for dealing with anxiety and panic attacks - many people have found her methods very helpful:

 

The Dr Claire Weekes method of recovering from a sensitised nervous system

[EdinburghGuy]

I didn't have panic today, but I want to cry and can't. I want to let this pain out by crying but just have anger and sadness. Suicidal. I want this crap out of my head. I have taken 20mg for 3 weeks. It would be dangerous to start messing with dose now right? Take 1 every second day? How long do you think? Dr says 6 weeks to fully take effect.

 

 

[peng]

No man, please stay steady with dose.

I'm not a moderator, but have possibly read enough to guess that they will say the same.

Dosing every second day is infamous for the "ping pong with your brain" effect.

Best wishes from Lothian.

[EdinburghGuy]

Ok, will keep sticking at 20mg for now. Just hate this stuff. I don't know if the crying thing makes sense, when I was really bad weeks ago at least I cried and let it out. now I can't seem to do that. Have anger instead. Maybe this is normal grieving, I don't know.

[EdinburghGuy]

no anxiety today, but very very depressed. hhhmm... anyway just will see how these weeks go i guess

 

[Songbird]

It's normal for things to be up and down for a while as your body works towards stabilising.  Try to resist the urge to change something every time you experience an unpleasant symptom.  It will be best to keep your dose consistent, and be patient.

[EdinburghGuy]

Bad anxiety and depression today. emailing Samaritins about suicidal thoughts. I don't think I can last months of this. Can't function or do anything without severe anxiety or depression (have some windows, but not good enough). When I see my dr they will tell me to change to another ssri. I was thinking lexapro might be safer than effexor. I want to be healed, week 3 of prozac 20mg re-reinstatement, was thinking of waiting till 6 weeks to see if any improvement, if no improvement no idea what to do. Maybe can't follow the advice here and have to listen to dr.  Becoming more agoraphobic. Wish I could just decide the right thing to do.

 

Take a different ssri - relapse symptoms go and I can function again or new ssri makes things worse.

Stay with 20mg prozac and eventually heal - months, years, never?

 

Such a crap situation.

 

 

[powerback]

Welcome to SA EG ,I'm not long back from Scotland myself ,I have a brother and niece that live there .

You will get past this spell trust me .I'm one of the unenviable members on the site with long protracted withdrawl  and its torture at times .I'm haven a bad 2 days after a few days of feeling human .

Its a pain on what decision to make about meds but do what ever you think is best for you .

Sending a virtual path on the back and walking beside you .

Be kind to yourself today .

Take care .

[Rosetta]

All I can say is that the quickest way to heal is to stay with Prozac.  Any other drug is not what your brain is dependent upon.  Someday doctors will know about AD dependence and to "treat" withdrawal with the same drug.  Until then there will be more and more tragedies.  This website exists to provide that information to patients when doctors do not.  

 

It does appear to be possible to recover when one takes a different drug, but that takes longer.  It takes longer for the CNS to reestablish stability without the drug that the body and brain is dependent upon.  Using a different AD right now would be like giving cocaine to a heroin addict -- it won't take away the effects of heroin withdrawal.  It might mask some of the symptoms, but it won't replace heroin.  The risk of using a different AD is that it may make the situation worse whereas a low dose of Prozac is much less likely to do that.

 

Unfortunately, reintroducing Prozac hasn't been a quick solution for you, but if you have had windows then that means the Prozac is helping.  You are lucky.  For some people it doesn't help.  I envy you.  I did not reinstate, but how I wish I could have and seen improvements such as windows in only 3 weeks!!!

 

Make sure to write your windows down here or on paper.  In a bad wave you will doubt they ever occurred unless you have proof.  Hold on, ED.  You are going to make it!  Get support for suicidal thoughts when you need it through Samaritans, and wait for the thoughts to cease.  Look into taking some magnesium citrate -- about a 1/4 dose to start and see how it affects you.  It helps me to stay calmer.

 

Hoping for the best for you, Rosetta