EdinburghGuy: Dilemma, tapering 10 years fluoxetine, dr wants me on venlafaxine

[EdinburghGuy]

I'm close to a breakdown, just taking one stupid tablet, maybe its me, these meds are traumatizing me. I can't take it. 

[EdinburghGuy]

mother doesn't believe me, I refuse these meds but no help. Can't take it.

[EdinburghGuy]

Everyone is fed up with me because I give so much trouble about the meds, they left me alone in the house, will go back on prozac. This is hell. 

[Rosetta]

Yes, it's Hell.  You are right.  I felt crazy, too.  Please know that it is not YOU that is crazy.  Your system is trying to find a balance.  You are getting dysfunctional signals from your brain.  

 

You will get through this.  All you need is a safe place and food.  It does matter to you, of course, that your parents don't believe you, but to your long term recovery all that matters is that you believe.  If they are taking care of your basic needs that's all that matters.  You will have to pretend to be calm and rational with them.  They will always want to treat you like a 12 year old, of course, but you can still be firm that the sertraline makes you feel worse (don't tell them how it makes you feel worse.). Just say there is a new more terrible feeling when you use sertraline that Prozac does not cause.  

 

The fact that your body functioned better after you started the Prozac shows that it was the right choice.  What you need to calm yourself is a course of action.  Please ask your doctor to let you see a neurologist.  You can describe to the neurologist the difference between Prozac reinstatement and taking sertraline.  Make sure to discuss the panic as well as the physical issue.  

 

There are medical journal articles on this site that may help you understand how AD WD and benzo withdrawal are similar.  Please read them when you can.  The same destabilization happens in both cases.  It's a very well known effect of benzo WD, but not so very well known with AD WD.

[EdinburghGuy]

Thanks, looks like everyone else has given up on me. Panic is hell for me and people around me. I'm in UK, NHS don't do anything unless you have a strong argument etc. (it sucks) what would a neurologist do? I have a sleep study i need to go to soon. But might put it off, not sure because my sleep is so bad at the moment. What else can they do? I am still in so much confusion, but all I know is I hate these evil drugs. But hating the drugs won't make me get well. 

[EdinburghGuy]

p.s. can't remember how to edit signature. 

[powerback]

Hi EG sorry to hear your suffering so bad ,keep at it and keep reading up on the success stories ,find something to cling onto ,keep stress down ,learn to ignore things we mite usually be annoyed by ,get your diet cleaned up massively ,I know your probably wrecked but as soon as you have the energy keep at these healthy principals and hopefully itl change sooner rather than later .I totally understand the annoyance about family and others not understanding but its wasted energy ,trust me I've wasted loads but not any more ,its there problem .we believe you and you believe you ,this is enough.put all the energy into learning and using all the great sections on SA to get through it.

A great saying by RamDas goes "if people don't like me its there problem and if they do like me its there problem " iM learning to listen to this myself and live by healthier mental health habits .

Keep up the fight because your worth it .

Take care .

[powerback]

2 hours ago, EdinburghGuy said:

Thanks, looks like everyone else has given up on me. Panic is hell for me and people around me. I'm in UK, NHS don't do anything unless you have a strong argument etc. (it sucks) what would a neurologist do? I have a sleep study i need to go to soon. But might put it off, not sure because my sleep is so bad at the moment. What else can they do? I am still in so much confusion, but all I know is I hate these evil drugs. But hating the drugs won't make me get well. 

Give this a go for panic ,I use it when I'm bad .

[Rosetta]

People here haven't given up on you.  Very few people have any idea what to say to someone suffering as you are.  They don't realize that just a short message that says "I care." can be enough, and the more people it comes from the better.  (Thanks, Powerback!)

 

Try to not push your parents away.   They are in as much pain as you, I promise you.  Just say to them. "Thank you for trying to help me.  Thank you being here and for not giving up on me."  Keep thanking them for every little thing -- a plate of food, a check in, a concerned look.  They need to hear that.  This is how I deal with my husband to keep him from getting too discouraged.  

 

They may take that as an opening to start to talk about the drugs, but simply say "I know you love me.  Thank God for that.  I love you, too."  Don't argue with them; don't yell; don't throw things whatever you do.  Simply tell them, "After I took that pill you have no idea how it made me feel.  It made me feel MORE desperate, and I didn't think that was possible.  If sertraline causes that result, what would you have me do?  It feels like I'm taking a drug that makes me feel more despair."  (I had the same problem when my doctor gave me Xanax.  It made things worse.)

 

I was in just as much pain as you at one time.  I really was.  I got through it, and I'm so glad I did.  What you must remember is that you will get well, and any symptom could ease suddenly just like the PSSD did.  That was sudden, and relief from other symptoms may possibly be sudden, too.  You must hold on and wait for that to happen.

 

Now, I need to take a step back and care for myself.  I'll be back when I can.  Re-read the messages above when you need to.  

[Lolita]

Hi!

 

I am just passing by to say hang in there!

I understand so much your desperation and how hard this is!!!!

I am also tapering and feel like a mess since 2 weeks. Had a nice window of feeling normal for 3-4 days.  But now Im stuck with new symptoms every week!

 

Take care if yourself!

[Carmie]

Hi EdinburghGuy, 

 

Just popping in to say you’re not alone and your symptoms and how you are feeling are not unusual.

 

Please read over what Rosetta and Powerback said, they had some great thoughts. No one has given up on you. Everyone is struggling on here, it’s the hardest fight of our lives. We are all here to encourage one another. 

 

Yes, please read some of the success stories. One of these days we will all be success stories, it may take a couple of years or ten years but we will all get there in the end. All we can do is take each day as it comes, some days all we can do is take a minute at a time.

 

We need to find distractions and coping skills to help us get through the waves. It’s not easy but we will win this fight.

 

Hang in there and know that people are reading your thread even if they aren’t replying. It’s a good idea to read other people’s threads too when you’re up to it and leave a little comment. That way you won’t feel so alone in this journey, there will be an interchange of encouragement and you will learn a lot. I have learnt so much from others and continue to do so. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

[Rosetta]

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/392-one-theory-of-antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome/

 

The above thread discusses what the nervous system has experienced and why we feel so bad in WD.

[SkyBlue]

On 5/12/2018 at 5:47 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

 

For those who are feeling desperate or suicidal

 

and other topics in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum

 

 

On 6/9/2018 at 2:51 AM, Songbird said:

Did you check out the topic about Dr. Claire Weekes?  I highly recommend her books and audio recordings for dealing with anxiety.

 

Another thing you might try is relaxation exercises.  These can help to reduce anxiety by calming the nervous system.  You could try progressive muscle relaxation, gentle yoga, meditation, guided visualisation, calming breathing exercises, or whatever kind of relaxation exercise works for you.  I like to use recordings with relaxing music and an instructor's calming voice telling me what to do, so I can just follow the instructions and not have to think about it too hard.  Whenever I have a patch of very bad anxiety I do the exercises two or three times a day for a while.  The idea is to calm down the "fight-or-flight response" (sympathetic nervous system) and stimulate the "relaxation response" (parasympathetic nervous system).

 

 

Please visit those topics ^ and start to put together some coping skills to get you through. It may be trial and error, but it will really help your situation if you can figure out how to calm your system a bit (and I'm not trying to minimize your withdrawal). Let us know what skills you try and how it went. 

[peng]

No, haven't given up on you, EdG. 😢

 

Just hoping for you to get some relief - we all know what you are going through, believe me.

Dont blame the NHS and doctors.  They just dont understand a lot of this stuff too well, and have very little in their armoury.  Drugs are the main resource, but they need to understand how each patient will respond.  Some day soon, the education will have to change. 

My advice would be to try and keep stable first of all.  Chopping and changing medication is known to be bad for us.

 

Best wishes from W. Lothian.

 

[EdinburghGuy]

5 hours ago, peng said:

 

 

Best wishes from W. Lothian.

 

 

peng I'm in west lothian too actually. if you fancy meeting I would appreciate it. I am so isolated and confused right now. Would be good to talk to someone who understands this. If not its cool, just thought i'd ask.

 

Anyway, I went to the cinema today. just constant anxiety and suicidal thoughts all day, only eases at 6pm. I use eye patches and with binaureal beats and wind noise,. but the cortisol mornings (and 1am, 3am, 5am etc.) totally screw me up all day. If I could just get a grip of that I could function more.

Still hopeless, wandering about the sertraline, taking it just sent my anxiety through the roof yesterday. I just can't bring myself to get more side effects and more hell. not yet anyway. but really desperate right now. I can't take years of this.Too messed up to write my symptoms down etc. but I should get organized, just too overwhelmed with panic most of the day. 

 

 

 

 

[EdinburghGuy]

Thanks everyone for good wishes.  put put it off for now back on prozac 20mg. but pssd really scares me. I found it difficult to get hard after just one sertraline pill, not sure if it is psycological or what, but it is a big reason why i stay away from new meds.

[Songbird]

If you had adverse reactions to sertraline, it may be best to stay off it and stick with prozac.

[peng]

Yes, stay constant with the prozac now, I would say.

The only reason I would not choose to meet up is that I am in withdrawal and even had to reinstate a couple of weeks ago.  I would be worried that seeing you would be too distressing for me to handle and may be triggering.

 

Re the cortisol mornings, I had them for months, when I was working.  Went to work like death warmed up on dozens of mornings (intermittent spells) 1977-2002.  Things get better as the day goes on and you talk to others and get into your work.

In those days I did not feel able or close enough to confide in more than one other fellow sufferer/late colleague about my difficulties.  He was ex WW2 commando, probably damaged neurologically by post-war TB drug trials.

My line manager and senior manager knew of my difficulties, too, from my sick lines and routine staff appraisal interviews.

 

From my own experience, antidepressants typically take about 10 days to kick in.  You can postpone getting off them until later when you are feeling stronger again - which will happen.  The libido issues are probably only bad for you just now because you are in distress at the moment.  You will almost certainly regain your interest and reasonable performance and wonder what all the panic was about.  Just now you are extremely highly strung and that is understandable.  When we are in that state we all fear the worst about each and everything.  Most on here will tell you that it will pass.

 

I survived and we had 3 children and a mortgage.  I first became ill at 32 and I am still here 40 years later, having had some reasonable periods of good life quality.

 

Best Regards

[EdinburghGuy]

Weird thing yesterday,  I was just so fed up and annoyed from the morning cortisol that I didn't take my 20mg prozac - I felt less anxious yesterday. I know prozac is still in my system etc. but it feels like I have an immediate reaction when I take it in the morning and it gets better in evening. yesterday it was better because I didn't take it? I don't know, just one day, maybe its all in my head. Its driving me crazy. Maybe it is stress related, I don't know.

 

Now matter what I do I seem to suffer. Will ask dr for liquid prozac and about disability benefit. Might try going down dose.

 

I only had a reaction 5 months after -that is so annoying. There are so many annoying variables. Hard to tell what is going on.

 

I think I will try reducing to 18 or 15 or 10. and see how I feel. but I can't wait 5 months etc. I know you do the 10 percent reduction, but if Prozac is too high I'm not sure what else I can do.

 

My cortisol morning was still there, but didn't have the horrible feeling in my chest. I'm not sure if 20mg is too much etc.

[EdinburghGuy]

Everyday of this hell. Cant do so much. Just anxiety all the time. Losing hope.

[EdinburghGuy]

Think ill stop posting, the advice here seems to be wait it out and slow taper. Not sure if i am strong enough for this. Anyway, if anything worthwhile to report will try to.

[Rosetta]

4 hours ago, EdinburghGuy said:

 but it feels like I have an immediate reaction when I take it in the morning and it gets better in evening. yesterday it was better because I didn't take it? I don't know, just one day, maybe its all in my head . . .

 

Now matter what I do I seem to suffer. Will ask dr for liquid prozac and about disability benefit. Might try going down dose . . . 

My cortisol morning was still there, but didn't have the horrible feeling in my chest. I'm not sure if 20mg is too much etc.

 

Hi EdinburgGuy,

 

I'm sorry you are suffering so.  All I can say is that I quit the AD almost cold turkey, and I struggled with morning cortisol anxiety everyday for many months.  I have taken nothing else, and I mean nothing except ibuprophen and coffee, since I quit.  Therefore, I couldn't blame the drug for the anxiety or mistake typical WD symptoms for a bad reaction.  I quit the coffee and take only decaf now, but I still have cortisol spikes.  They are not everyday, but they do last for several days in a row and they vary in intensity.   Some days they are easier to live with than others, but I'm still here.  So, they are tolerable.  My understanding is that they are a sign of the destabilization of the nervous system.   It does get better in the evening and that is true for a lot of people in WD.  So, the pattern does not necessarily mean you are having a bad reaction.  Many people take their doses in the morning and can mistake a normal pattern of typical WD for a bad reaction to medication.

 

This is important: do you feel ok until after you take the Prozac or do you wake up anxious and afraid?  Do you calm down before you take the pill and become anxious again after taking it?  Or is it essentially the same or close to the same level of anxiety until evening? If you answer these questions, the Mods may have some advice about distinguishing between WD symptoms and the effect of taking too much Prozac.

 

You have such a good chance of stabilizing quickly because you are on staying on the same drug.  I hate to see you change your dose unless it's necessary.  That will cause further destabilization and cause your healing time to be longer.  It would be good to decrease the dose only if you are having a true reaction.

 

I suggest you keep track, on paper, over the next week of when you take your pill and what your symptoms were before and after each pill.  Then post that at the end of the week.  It will be relevant information only if you take the same dose everyday.  Maybe the Mods will be able to see evidence of a reaction or not.  Then you might be able to decide what to do with a bit of information you don't have now.

 

I hope your day is better today. - Rosetta

 

[Songbird]

 

17 hours ago, EdinburghGuy said:

Think ill stop posting, the advice here seems to be wait it out and slow taper. Not sure if i am strong enough for this. 

 

That advice is given because it's the way to avoid big changes shocking your system and making things even worse.  If you are not strong enough for this, consider that other options could make things much worse.

 

20 hours ago, EdinburghGuy said:

I think I will try reducing to 18 or 15 or 10. and see how I feel. but I can't wait 5 months etc. I know you do the 10 percent reduction, but if Prozac is too high I'm not sure what else I can do.

... I'm not sure if 20mg is too much etc.

 

Bear in mind, your system may be somewhat confused still because of the sertraline dose you took.  It also isn't a good idea to skip your daily dose.  I think it would be best to let things settle down for a while and keep consistent with your daily dose.  If you feel unable to stick it out longer at the current dose, and you do decide to try a reduction, I would strongly suggest making only a small reduction so as not to shock your system.  Jumping down to 10mg would be a 50% reduction, which would be a big shock to the system.  A 10% reduction from 20mg would take the dose down to 18mg.  After a change in dose it's best to wait at least four weeks until your body adjusts to the change and things settle down, although with the long half-life of Prozac, it might be better to wait at least six weeks.  To measure your dose accurately you'll need either liquid Prozac or a jeweller's scale.

 

In any case, I would strongly suggest finding non-med ways to deal with the anxiety, and avoid ramping it up worse with worrying thoughts.  Did you try any of the relaxation exercises suggested?  Have you tried out any of Claire Weekes's books or recordings?  To get through this stuff it helps to have a toolkit of coping tools.

See: non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

[EdinburghGuy]

Still on 20mg prozac, cant function everyday hell. Not sure if going up to 40mg (my original dose) is an option. Also has anyone tried magnolia bark for anxiety? Just wish i could be stable on 20mg but it just isnt good enough.

 

Also still not sure about prozac causing anxiety etc. Can't tell difference really. Not functioning so not organized at the moment, just distracting myself watching videos etc.

[EdinburghGuy]

I once cold turkied in 2014 and went back to my original dose (had some st johns wart inbetween). The time off wasn't as long though. I felt so fatiqued on 40, probably caused weight gain too, but i could function. Just wish i could get better at 20mg and move on with my life. 

[ChessieCat]

On 6/18/2018 at 1:59 AM, Rosetta said:

This is important: do you feel ok until after you take the Prozac or do you wake up anxious and afraid?  Do you calm down before you take the pill and become anxious again after taking it?  Or is it essentially the same or close to the same level of anxiety until evening? If you answer these questions, the Mods may have some advice about distinguishing between WD symptoms and the effect of taking too much Prozac.

 

 

[EdinburghGuy]

I am not sure, i think my anxiety raises now after taking the prozac, usually at 12pm (take it usually between 6-8 with fish oil and magnesium). Becomes less in the evening 6pm.

[EdinburghGuy]

Right now its 8.35, kept waking during sleep. But slept. Anxiety is not so bad right now. Scared to take prozac as i know ill get anxious at around  10 -1 2. Want to try not taking it for a few days and see if there is a difference. Even though it is not recommended here, in reviews people have lowered, upped doses to find right level etc. I dont know, just so fed up and hopeless.

[EdinburghGuy]

But i dont know for sure, if it is just me

[EdinburghGuy]

Took prozac about an hour ago, feel quite anxious again, not sure if its me or drug. Think only way to test properly is few days stopping?

[Songbird]

2 hours ago, EdinburghGuy said:

I am not sure, i think my anxiety raises now after taking the prozac, usually at 12pm (take it usually between 6-8 with fish oil and magnesium). 

33 minutes ago, EdinburghGuy said:

Took prozac about an hour ago, feel quite anxious again, not sure if its me or drug. Think only way to test properly is few days stopping?

 

Did you also take fish oil and magnesium with your dose?  Fish oil can be stimulating.  Even magnesium, which most people find helpful, can produce unpleasant symptoms for some people.  If you're taking them all at the same time you won't be able to tell which is increasing the anxiety. 

 

It is not a great idea to stop taking your daily dose.  This will bounce your drug levels around creating more confusion in your system.  If your dose is too high, it will still need to be tapered down without sudden big dose changes.  Please read this topic: the rule of 3KIS - keep it simple keep it slow keep it stable

 

The fact that you are sleeping and have some periods of lower anxiety shows that the Prozac has done something to alleviate the very severe withdrawal.  It's possible you might need to tweak your dose but it needs to be done carefully.

 

Please can you keep notes on paper about your drugs (including supplements), dosages and daily symptom pattern, and post them here.  A symptom pattern that occurs regularly over several days could mean the symptoms are from withdrawal, adverse effects of drugs, or something else you do on a daily schedule.

 

What we need to see for every individual day over several days is:

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in morning
- Time and description of any symptoms in the morning
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in afternoon
- Time and description of any symptoms in the afternoon
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in evening
- Time and description of any symptoms in the evening
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in middle of the night
- Time and description of any symptoms in the middle of the night (such as waking)
 
Include any supplements taken as well.  For example:

 

23 June

7 a.m. woke up, anxiety 3/10

8 a.m. ate breakfast, took 20mg Prozac tablet

10 a.m. anxiety 7/10, nausea 3/10

12 p.m. ate lunch, anxiety 5/10, nausea 1/10

2 p.m. anxiety 4/10, nausea 2/10

6 p.m. ate dinner, took magnesium tablet 200mg, anxiety 2/10, no nausea

8 p.m. anxiety 1/10

11 p.m. went to bed, anxiety 2/10, difficulty falling asleep for 2 hours

4 a.m. woke up, no anxiety, went back to sleep for 3 hours

 

This is just a made up example.  Please keep notes about your day and post them here each day so we can see in more detail what is happening, thanks.

 

 

 

[Carmie]

2 hours ago, EdinburghGuy said:

Right now its 8.35, kept waking during sleep. But slept. Anxiety is not so bad right now. Scared to take prozac as i know ill get anxious at around  10 -1 2. Want to try not taking it for a few days and see if there is a difference. Even though it is not recommended here, in reviews people have lowered, upped doses to find right level etc. I dont know, just so fed up and hopeless.

 

 Pleeeeeese do not just stop Prozac abruptly,  you might feel okay for a few days but you will end up with severe withdrawals eventually. 

 

It’s not worth it. The moderators on this site know what they’re talking about and any time I’ve tapered too quickly I’ve payed for it. I knew nothing about tapering  when I first started. 

 

Please stay safe. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

[peng]

Agree with Carmie.

Anxiety attacks are almost unbearable at times, but you will almost certainly never rid them from your life by being so erratic with your dosing.  

Your best plan is to wait for up to a fortnight or so for the prozac to kick in.

(Not a Dr, so this is only from my own personal experience of almost 40 years.)

[EdinburghGuy]

Yeah, agree, last hour felt unusually calm, so will just stick at 20mg this month. Today i took the fish oil and mag first, then prozac 10-20 mins later. Just very frustrating and debilitating symtoms

[EdinburghGuy]

Hour later after lunch quite bad depression. Anyway will keep quiet for a while.

[Songbird]

1 hour ago, EdinburghGuy said:

Yeah, agree, last hour felt unusually calm, so will just stick at 20mg this month. Today i took the fish oil and mag first, then prozac 10-20 mins later. Just very frustrating and debilitating symtoms

 

I would suggest taking them at least two hours apart.  You might even leave the fish oil out for a while.