hayduke: coming off olanzapine / Zyprexa

[hayduke]

A gratitude list:

 

1.  Love, universal or otherwise
2.  Marriage.  I'm a firm believer that the state has no place in healthy consensual relationships.  However it is the state's sometime belief to the contrary that proves the utility of the official recognition.
3.  The Pub.  Many simply do not understand the deeper social importance of the independent Public House.
4.  Good Law Enforcement.
5.  Trauma informed care and support.
6.  Social Justice and Compassion.
7.  Never giving up.
8.  The faith, wisdom and sense to know the difference between "cruel to be kind" and abuse.
9.  Nature.  Our beautiful planet in all its moods.
10.  Books 🙂

[duffy]

hey @hayduke, since I know we are in a similar location I was wondering how you made sure that the pharmacists gave you the same brand of Olanzapine each time. I just hit 2.5mg for the first time on my taper and went to get my script filled and lo and behold they give me a Mylan branded box of Zypine olanzapine when up until now I have been given Sandoz brand at 5mg and 7.5mg for my taper.

 

How did you ensure you got the same brand every time? I know from reading on here that people have troubles switching between brands so there can potentially be some differences in strength between them so I think it its important for my taper to keep the same brand the whole time.

[hayduke]

28 minutes ago, duffy said:

How did you ensure you got the same brand every time?

 

Hi @duffy

 

I used the same chemist I've been using for decades.  They were able to look after me well that way.  I'd suggest sticking to somewhere you have such a rapport with.

 

I never had much trouble swapping makes, or from solid tablets to suspension, FWIW.  But we see a lot of folks who seem to.

[duffy]

1 hour ago, hayduke said:

 

Hi @duffy

 

I used the same chemist I've been using for decades.  They were able to look after me well that way.  I'd suggest sticking to somewhere you have such a rapport with.

 

I never had much trouble swapping makes, or from solid tablets to suspension, FWIW.  But we see a lot of folks who seem to.

cheers, it is a big Chemist Warehouse I've been going to so it seems to be different people everytime I go. I guess I can just talk to them about this issue and see what response I get, I've seen people in other posts talk about getting 'no substitutes' on their scripts so I will ask my Doctor about that also.

 

Did you have to swap makes many times during your taper? I didn't have any trouble switching to liquid suspension and can't tell yet if the new brand of olanzapine is having a difference and then it would be quite hard to discern that from what may be regular tapering effects. Just have to play it by ear I suppose.

[hayduke]

21 hours ago, duffy said:

cheers, it is a big Chemist Warehouse I've been going to so it seems to be different people everytime I go. I guess I can just talk to them about this issue and see what response I get, I've seen people in other posts talk about getting 'no substitutes' on their scripts so I will ask my Doctor about that also.

 

Did you have to swap makes many times during your taper? I didn't have any trouble switching to liquid suspension and can't tell yet if the new brand of olanzapine is having a difference and then it would be quite hard to discern that from what may be regular tapering effects. Just have to play it by ear I suppose.

 

I'd say you're looking for an old school family pharmacy mate. Those discount places aren't there for the hard stuff.

 

Having it locked into the prescription sounds like a good safeguard.

[hayduke]

A nasty turn of events to report.

 

I found out the disowned parents had been stalking me and hammering the "anonymous " mental health hotline to moan about me.  That resulted in at least two house calls both giving "all clear".  After the third visit I was scheduled under the Mental Health Act, and I found out a so-called friend had organised a chorus with the "family" I went no-contact with 2 1/2 years ago (except the father who breached my trust and leaked back to them and was thus retrospectively disowned).

 

I have been held in psych ward involuntarily for over a month despite no real valid concerns around safety, and "illness" seems a very tenuous claim.  People are kind but the system is brutal and I cannot mount an effective legal or health related defence until release.

 

I am at the mercy of a sadistic public consultant pdoc.  He wants to force a CTO to release me, meaning a regime of depot shots.  Nothing I say changes his mind.  I've had two depot shots of paliperidone, a "loading dose" of 150 mg and 100 mg 8 days later.  His distrust of me is atrocious and a complaint to the HCCC imminent.

 

My RSI and joints are flared up since and I fear permanent damage to them.

 

What's the best way to plan getting off these safely and supervised?

[Onmyway]

@hayduke I am so sorry you are dealing with this. The ability of the MH system to abuse people without any recourse in this day and age is mind boggling. I haven't had to deal with these issues myself so can't offer any solution beyond compassion and virtual hugs! 

Hope you can get out of this nightmare soon. 

OMW

[duffy]

Damn @hayduke I’m very sorry to hear what’s happened to you and feel bad asking you for help previously when you’ve been going through this.

it’s very scary to me that people with poor judgement or even worse evil motives can get you scheduled. That’s pretty much an arrest isn’t it? This is nightmare fuel for me as I’ve been terrified of this happening to me and getting put under the thumb of the Mental Health Act in a ward again because of something out of my control.
 

is there any recourse against your parents and this friend? So they were just hammering the mental health hotline until they succeeded in getting you investigated?

 

hoping the CTO isn’t too extensive and it will be easy enough to come off the palperidone for you.

[Venkat]

Hi @hayduke can't believe this is happening to you. Extremely sorry to hear that but I am sure you will get out of it safely. 

 

When I was forcefully admitted into a psychiatric hospital 6 yrs back the doctors came to know I was not taking tablets so by my brother's suggestion they forcefully gave me inj paliperidone. My loading dose was around 350mg. That night was pure hell in a locked room with no one to respond. I am so glad that inj did not do much harm to you. After a few days they gave me another dose of about 100mg. Double hell began. I got discharged at the end of the month like a zombie. I was not asked to continue the injection and I was not ready to take it either knowing what it was doing to me. Next 6 months of hell it was. 

I was not sure if it was the side effects of the inj or because of sudden withdrawal.

 

To be on the safer side may be you should try smaller doses the following months and gradually taper before stopping. 

 

I strongly wish that you move far away from these people after getting out of the hospital and start an independent and a free life.

 

Please take care hayduke. We are with you here.

[BadMedicine]

@hayduke. Really sorry this has happened to you. Should not be allowed in this day and age. I really hope you manage to get off the papileridone without too much trouble. It’s a terrible situation that you don’t deserve to be in. Honestly think the people who did this to you are the ones who should be committed into a psychiatric unit.

[hayduke]

It seemed like a bit of a "perfect storm".  But really it came down to a betrayal, an old "friend" writing a very dirty and false statement about me, with some gristly bits that trauma explains fine.  That's not the view the public system wants to take.

 

It comes down to me struggling financially, some drunk texting, an ancient and vicious misdiagnosis on top of which they say I'm "delusional" about a relationship (which is exactly what they bailed me up on last time I was sectioned - I still got an offer of marriage from that lady not too long after though we also decided not to proceed  ).

I had a Tribunal hearing for discharge, but as I'm told they almost always side with the "doctors".  I think I argued a strong and square case.  But since I'm not a lawyer, they just disregard it at will.  No justice can be done in 30 minutes around this situation and they don't have to prove a reasonable doubt.  Kafka would have a new book to write!

No one ever wants to argue with my points, which is what I'm good at...they only demonstrate the brutality of state sanctioned power.  It is next to impossible to get private pdocs or lawyers in while under the MHA.  I thought I had both set up already but they both actually kicked me in and pulled the plug.  I saw some ancient quote saying it's better to cop a knife in the back from a friend than live life worrying about them doing it.  I couldn't have seen it coming, and that's a couple of people off the xmas card list.

 

I suppose the route off paliperidone will involve switching to a tablet of some kind.  It's apparently closest to risperidone.  It's probably wishful thinking to imagine a 6 month shot would self taper how I would choose to.  Ugh.

 

One thing I will say I learnt - drinking even 18 months out into wds got me into hot water.  I am looking at a long break from the grog now.  

 

One upside is that the disowned family is seeing how serious I am about boundaries, just for once.  I excluded them from any business with me on the "nominated carers" form, so they cannot participate or attend during detainment.  They clearly expected me to crawl back to them.  Hard "nope".

Thanks all for your support.

[hayduke]

Back on the outside again, now.  The experience has been brutal but I am ok.  It will take a bit of time to process but I don't feel bowled over like I did the other time I was involuntary.  They hit me a lot harder this time, but I put up a good fight.  Going in rational, and having that recognised by most staff garnered a lot of sympathy and support.  I am reminded of Erving Goffman's sociology on this topic.

It is so stacked against the individual needing to make a case.  They all have internet, email, word processors - and I had pen and blank paper with a shared phone without a directory.

The dirty tactics the "treating team" used with the Tribunal are rather jaw-dropping for people who are alleging to be helping you.  Rather, they resemble hostile prosecution lawyers from some bad old movie.

I will be appealing the outcome.

It is sad that so many good people are there bolstering such an awful system.  Though given it's an awful system, they make it survivable.

The most horrid thing to watch was people getting ECT.  I don't know much about it but I sure don't like the look of it.

Edited July 14, 2023 by hayduke

[hayduke]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:30 PM, BadMedicine said:

@hayduke. Really sorry this has happened to you. Should not be allowed in this day and age. I really hope you manage to get off the papileridone without too much trouble. It’s a terrible situation that you don’t deserve to be in. Honestly think the people who did this to you are the ones who should be committed into a psychiatric unit.

Thanks @BadMedicine.  This is my first chance to respond on a computer instead of mobile phone, so please pardon my delayed response.

Yeah, the idea that the dysfunctional family get away with this caper without being subject to psych evaluations themselves in this day and age makes me feel

 

sick.  The concept of the "identified patient" rings true for many of the people I saw in there, especially some with parents visiting.

Can't dish it out if you can't take it, right?

The stalking is something I am going to have to take extra care to protect myself against, because without me to project her abject emotions onto, the disowned mother is clearly not taking "no" for an answer to her desire for contact.  That bridge war already burnt.  The father makes me a bit sad, cos he has been good some of the time, but in the end he betrayed my trust and thus made his choice.

 

On 7/2/2023 at 7:16 PM, Venkat said:

Hi @hayduke can't believe this is happening to you. Extremely sorry to hear that but I am sure you will get out of it safely. 

 

When I was forcefully admitted into a psychiatric hospital 6 yrs back the doctors came to know I was not taking tablets so by my brother's suggestion they forcefully gave me inj paliperidone. My loading dose was around 350mg. That night was pure hell in a locked room with no one to respond. I am so glad that inj did not do much harm to you. After a few days they gave me another dose of about 100mg. Double hell began. I got discharged at the end of the month like a zombie. I was not asked to continue the injection and I was not ready to take it either knowing what it was doing to me. Next 6 months of hell it was. 

I was not sure if it was the side effects of the inj or because of sudden withdrawal.

 

To be on the safer side may be you should try smaller doses the following months and gradually taper before stopping. 

 

I strongly wish that you move far away from these people after getting out of the hospital and start an independent and a free life.

 

Please take care hayduke. We are with you here.

The side effects of the injection are not trivial.  But I can do this again.  I'm most worried about the cartilege softening and joint issues, though fatigue is no joke.

They want me to keep taking it because they know I will taper again.  But they are also awful in that they know I understand I can't just discontinue tablets in a hurry either.  I reckon I had about 18 months to go to homeostasis where I was, but drinking, psychosocial factors and a lot of anger all added up to things I could have handled better.  But then again, they are horrible people with an axe to grind.

Not sure how I will recommence a taper when the time comes, but I'm sure it can be done.  That day ain't today!  Thank you for your well wishes and suggestions @Venkat.
 

 

On 7/2/2023 at 3:08 PM, duffy said:

Damn @hayduke I’m very sorry to hear what’s happened to you and feel bad asking you for help previously when you’ve been going through this.

it’s very scary to me that people with poor judgement or even worse evil motives can get you scheduled. That’s pretty much an arrest isn’t it? This is nightmare fuel for me as I’ve been terrified of this happening to me and getting put under the thumb of the Mental Health Act in a ward again because of something out of my control.
 

is there any recourse against your parents and this friend? So they were just hammering the mental health hotline until they succeeded in getting you investigated?

 

hoping the CTO isn’t too extensive and it will be easy enough to come off the palperidone for you.

I feel it's punishment for activism among other things.  If you point out the obvious motives and injustices, and they just double down, we know the nature of that monster.

I will appeal now I have resources again.  Thank you @duffy.
 

 

On 7/1/2023 at 8:55 PM, Onmyway said:

@hayduke I am so sorry you are dealing with this. The ability of the MH system to abuse people without any recourse in this day and age is mind boggling. I haven't had to deal with these issues myself so can't offer any solution beyond compassion and virtual hugs! 

Hope you can get out of this nightmare soon. 

OMW

Yep.  They've read van der Kolk and talk about trauma - then completely ignore it.  Dirty pool, punitive bullsh*t.  

Thank you for the virtual hugs 🙂

[hayduke]

And while I'm posting, a gratitude list.

1.  The sun was magnificent today, a clear fine winter's day.
2. Good friends.

3. Good community.

4. Survival skills

5. Non alcoholic beer means I can still make a chilli con carne and enjoy it without needing alcohol

6. Music

7. Letting go of some long-held material possessions - much loved, much pleasure derived over the years, but it feels like time to shed a lot of weighty things and get minimal

8. Dogs in the park

9. The amazing curry I had for lunch

10. The fact that despite its commercialisation and other pitfalls, there is still good on the internet, like this site.

 

🙂

[AFAF]

Hi I read about your tapering process here 

. Do I need a specific orodispersible olanzapine to taper? I am on the slightly yellow Olanzapine Apotex ones but can't tell if it will work when mixed with water. Thanks! 

[hayduke]

On 7/16/2023 at 4:03 PM, AFAF said:

Hi I read about your tapering process here 

. Do I need a specific orodispersible olanzapine to taper? I am on the slightly yellow Olanzapine Apotex ones but can't tell if it will work when mixed with water. Thanks! 

Nope, the standard tablets work well enough to create a suspension in water.  The orodispersible ones ought work too if you have those, I haven't tried them.

Have a gander at 

Also, please start a thread for yourself in the Introductions forum.  That way, your journey will be collated in one place, and people can see what's going on when providing support etc.  Thank you 

[hayduke]

The paliperidone seems less troublesome than risperidone as I recall it but I'm on too much of it.  Reality feels a bit glazed over and my endurance in social situations seems shortened.  Fatigue is a bear again when I have a lot to do.

 

Not happy, Jan!

 

There is a "lurching" effect from these monthly depot shots, it's a bit of a rollercoaster with the choppy increases of BPL then the gradual decrease.  Basically a sawtooth waveform.  The pdoc gave me a script for 78mg for the next round which might help but I'm not thrilled.

 

They suggested I take a very small amount of aripiprazole to reduce prolactin levels (2.5mg vs 50mg "therapeutic" dose).  Supposedly it preoccupies some receptors of interest before the paliperidone.  Not quite stacking but I would rather have pressed on with my PAWS to natural balance.  I have not tried this yet.

Edited July 28, 2023 by hayduke

[Oaktree1]

Hi Hayduke

 

Just posting to say I am so sorry about what you have gone through in the past while.  

It is my worst nightmare what you have gone through.  I don't have any advice or won't say any stupid words of comfort.  I was treated coercively once and it was really frightening.  I knew instinctively when it happened just to shut up and say nothing so I got out quicker.  I was never actually committed - just went in voluntarily and then got kept in and forcibly medicated against my will when I said to the treating shrink that I didn't want to take meds any more.  I thought the process was voluntary as I was a voluntary patient - bad lesson.  Just how does someone get off an enforced drug order?  I follow Jill Kesti on Facebook and she eventually got released from hers.  There is also Mindfreedom International - they write letters to the person's treating team to get them released. 

 

At least you seem to have said that you met some decent people in the system and you stayed rational.   At least you have learnt a harsh lesson - to stay away from alcohol.  At least you didn't put your family down on the list of carers so that's a very clear message to them that you don't want anything to do with them and that's down now on record.  

 

 I was forced back into treatment myself over two years ago but at the time I went along with it as part of me felt that I needed it.  Now I see very clearly that it was coercive and prompted by a particular family member whom I had challenged on another family matter.  I still believed in the psychiatric system then.  I was around 9 months out from a too quick Cymbalta taper and very distressed.  In fact to be honest I vacillate in and out all the time on whether I believe in the psychiatric system because I've had a lot of psychological issues - I had what you call a toxic break (psychotic break) one time in my early 20's while on a very high dose of Dothiepin but I've lived with chronic depression and S.i on and off all my life and chronic pain since my mid 30's onwards so in this society when you don't work and are obviously 'mentally' ill' there is no where else to go but the psychiatric system if you are deemed to need care. 

 

The great thing about you though is that you had built a life for yourself outside your family unit and that until the psyche hold you were working.  I hope you can get through this period.  I am sorry that the lawyer let you down and the private pdoc.  It truly is a disgrace what is going on now in the name of mental health in some quarters.  I share a bit of my story here in solidarity with what you went through.  There are a few other stories on the site unfortunately that are similar.  

 

Oaktree1

 

 

[Oaktree1]

Hi Hayduke

 

I read back over my last message and realised that I made it mostly 'all about me' which is against the guidelines here and is an annoying thing to do anyway.  

 

All I really wanted to say was that I feel really bad for what happened to you because something similar happened to me and I live in fear every day that it will happen soon again. I understand how damn horrifying and disgusting and Kafkaesque it is because what happened to you has all the backing of state law and all the 'normies' out there who think this barbarism is a legitimate way to treat someone.   

 

If someone finds it helpful to them to admit themselves to a psychiatric unit and take whatever drugs are on offer that should be their free choice.  But I don't think that it is ever ok to take away someone's liberty unless they are in danger of harming someone else.  If someone is deemed to be danger of harming someone else and therefore deemed a candidate for lock up, for example in the criminal law - there is a presumption of innocence and an accused has certain inalienable rights (in democratic countries) i.e. the right to a lawyer, the right to bail. 

 

There are fundamental legal principles of natural justice in most democratic countries- habeus corpus  - the protection against indefinite imprisonment.  Under most mental health systems or certainly the ones in my own country a person can be detained indefinitely if the review board decide to do so.  Under the principle of audi alteram partem - an accused person is allowed to challenge the evidence presented against them and produce their own witnesses and of course have access to a lawyer.  The principle applies across all areas of law  It is only in the area of 'mental health law' where these principles are silenced allowing for the sort of barbarism you were subjected to.  Once a person is deemed to be judged to be suffering from a 'mental disorder' the existence of which can be alarmingly easy to ascertain by a few chosen phone calls from any party, all legal protections appear to fly out of the window.  In my own country an application for an 'involuntary admission' can be made by anyone at all 'any other party' - a stranger on the street can make such an application.   

 

Hope things improve soon.

 

Oaktree1

[hayduke]

The sedation from this drug seems constantly in the way of getting what I need to do done.  I was really enjoying restored energy levels after completing my previous taper.  Now I am having to reconsider what is and isn't within my capabilities.  Joint pain has returned.

 

Thanks @Oaktree1

 

Don't read anything into my delayed response.  I've been alternately busy and in need of downtime.  I appreciate your sympathies.  I was very conscious in psych ward that these are global issues, not all attributable to living in a backwater.  Sadly this is quite a common story.

 

You're dead right about how due process is absent.  Significant reform is required.  The right to face one's accuser is probably the first basic right denied here.  Adding to that is a presumption of incompetence - once claimed on your behalf - means some doctors and nurses feel it is a-ok to withhold vital information about you and your circumstances, for your 'protection', while using it against you to secure incarceration, forced treatments and so on.  C/w a court of law where your opponent must provide their evidence before discussions.

 

Adding injury to insult is the Tribunal's claim to be 'informal', meaning they don't have to assess your claims before siding with the doctors (I'm told they normally do, and that's what I saw) about 'delusion' or whatever.  Like, they'll detain you for over a month while your job and housing and bills run out, but you can wear street clothes.  I wasn't even allowed a haircut for a month - how degrading.

 

It seems clear it's used sometimes as a shadow 'justice' system, only without the justice.

[Oaktree1]

The lucidity and cogency of your reply to the legal issues makes me feel quite ...shocked really...you write like a lawyer or a journalist.  That you were locked up ...well...don't know what to say.  All I can say is stay away from anything that damages or has the appearance of damaging your lucidity i.e. alcohol.  People who have been locked up and treated against their will and have a medical file full of mental illnesses have to behave better than so called 'normies' particularly if they are connected to malign family members. Sober and controlled - I am sober but I am not controlled still to be honest - it's hard.  I know I can't take a drink or maybe just one glass max at a social occasion - it's much too dangerous for me.  It's sad not to be able to be yourself but it's like that once you've been locked up a few times.

 

In my own case I said to my own lawyer - 'what will I do if there is a move on to commit me?' He told me that I should phone him immediately if that happened and that he would ensure that I was represented over the phone if necessary and that if there was a move on to incarcerate me without cause that he would threaten those involved with an action for damages immediately if it was done without him being present to represent me. That is what I remember him saying to me when I saw him this time last year.  Of course I had to pay him for that letter and that consultation and it was not cheap but I knew I had to do it as it was the only way I could at least have a shot at protecting myself.  I have kept him updated and there is a paper trail there and his letters are on file with my GP and a lot of my back history is on medical file too.  There is both legal and medical documentation on my medical file representing my own evidence.  I have also drafted in a therapist solely to have another witness to my side of the story.    I see the therapist every few weeks to update her on what is going on so I don't spend too much money.  

 

I am telling you this probably after the fact because the worst has happened but I hope it might help if you ever manage to get off the stuff you are on now and if you can afford it in the future if finances improve to literally 'lawyer up' because that is what you are up against - that is a wonderful description of the psychiatric review- a shadow justice system.  

 

I am sorry again for what happened - families- ugh....and barf....and ugh...bad cess to them (that a curse from where I am from).  Hope some of the energy in it hits them for what they did to you.

[hayduke]

Cheers @Oaktree1.  Good suggestion about the lawyer.  I will have to find one who will help me instead of my turncoat "friend".  That was the bitterest pill to swallow in this ordeal.

 

I am generally fine when I drink, but I think during the recent stress I was too prone to flashing back after a certain number of drinks.  Probably more dopamine than my system was ready for at that stage of wds.

[hayduke]

I have tried 2.5mg of aripiprazole a few times now in the morning.  It seems to crash my mood to some extent.  Unfortunate, as the pdocs are concerned about high prolactin levels on paliperidone and its how they intend to keep it down.  The next paliperidone shot is scripted at a lower dose than previous.  I am still waiting for paperwork so I can fight the CTO.  Hurry up and wait...

 

Given I've just had a joint issue flare-up, which I haven't seen since my last taper, it was interesting to read that prolactin changes AMPK levels.  I will take that back to them and see what they say.  I don't think it's acceptable and I do not seem to do well with the small amount of aripiprazole they want to use to try and keep it in check.

 

Seem to be sleeping 10-11 hrs a night.  I have mixed feelings about that as my previous 6-8 felt adequate.  I think needing 10+ every night indicates overdrugging.

Edited August 7, 2023 by hayduke

[FireflyFyte]

On 6/30/2023 at 9:50 PM, hayduke said:

A nasty turn of events to report.

 

I found out the disowned parents had been stalking me and hammering the "anonymous " mental health hotline to moan about me.  That resulted in at least two house calls both giving "all clear".  After the third visit I was scheduled under the Mental Health Act, and I found out a so-called friend had organised a chorus with the "family" I went no-contact with 2 1/2 years ago (except the father who breached my trust and leaked back to them and was thus retrospectively disowned).

 

I have been held in psych ward involuntarily for over a month despite no real valid concerns around safety, and "illness" seems a very tenuous claim.  People are kind but the system is brutal and I cannot mount an effective legal or health related defence until release.

 

I am at the mercy of a sadistic public consultant pdoc.  He wants to force a CTO to release me, meaning a regime of depot shots.  Nothing I say changes his mind.  I've had two depot shots of paliperidone, a "loading dose" of 150 mg and 100 mg 8 days later.  His distrust of me is atrocious and a complaint to the HCCC imminent.

 

I am so sorry to hear this, hayduke. It is honestly terrifying how the system can entrap people and they have little, to no, recourse in the matter.

[hayduke]

Stumbled across this just now and thought I should review it over the weekend.  It might account for some signs of concern that were seized upon opportunistically by uh...non well-wishers.

It would be a big help to find a local psychiatrist who really understands this stuff and can provide some advocacy.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by hayduke

[hayduke]

It's long been the advice here to steer clear of alcohol during withdrawal.  I have not always taken it.

 

I'm forming the view that I found the dopamine release from alcohol temping while on dopamine antagonist drugs, to try and feel more comfort.  Chouinard et al's paper in my previous post illustrates that the body tends to generate more dopamine receptors on these psych drugs, looking for equilibrium.

 

So when we come off, the brain and nervous system are equipped with more dopamine receptors than we would otherwise have.  I was quite conscious of my body getting its dopamine back, and knowing it would take some time to even out.

 

This is where I think I will have to park the alcohol seriously for a long period during my next taper.  With more ability to soak up dopamine due to the extra receptors, and the dopamine antagonists out of the system, I could clearly flood my 'reward centres' by drinking more than was sensible.  This was leading me to frequent flashbacks with a lot of grief and anger I have been working through this year.  I think I would have been ok if I had not been disinhibited by the alcohol to "tell a few people what I REALLY think".  

By OK I mean not re-entangled with a dark ages mental health system.

 

 

[Onmyway]

Hi @hayduke

It seems like it's a 'lesson learned' moment, we all have those.  How are you doing with the new depot injections? 

 

I'm really sorry things have been so difficult lately. It doesn't help that people you trusted worked against your interest. 

 

You're in my thoughts.

 

Omw

 

[hayduke]

Thank you @Onmyway.  I'd never been aware enough of the supersensitivity phenomenon to realise.

 

The shots aren't pleasant, body aches and tension follow and the active dosage fluctuates like a sawtooth wave over the month, and each shot is weakening and too sedating.  Second half of the month I feel more functional.  I can't recommend this method at all if one must take these drugs.  Working out how to taper off is going to be complicated too, but I expect I will get either this drug or risperidone in tabs around a month after the last shot.

 

But I've been concentrating on picking up the pieces, analysing what I could have done better and am pressing on with my life plans.  A lot was changing anyway so I am riding that out and staying on course for what I want.  

Trying to look at the upsides too, the doom and gloom could go on all day but I'd rather process it than dwell in it - one major one is that disowned family is now quite aware how serious I am about boundaries.  Which is 100% no-contact.  Doesn't mean they will listen to me, or stop trying to be insanely controlling - but that's why the boundary is so necessary of course.  Gotta mind those "flying monkeys" too, keeping contact minimal with them.

Been watching more narcissistic abuse counsel videos as well, @Carmie or someone helpfully recommended Dr Ramani a while ago, and I've found a bunch more.  Also over half way through Pete Walker's CPTSD book which I wish I had read sooner, especially with its practical flashback management.  The drug is a major brake on those but it's still good practice.

Edited August 25, 2023 by hayduke
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[guile2]

15 hours ago, hayduke said:

It's long been the advice here to steer clear of alcohol during withdrawal.  I have not always taken it.

 

I'm forming the view that I found the dopamine release from alcohol temping while on dopamine antagonist drugs, to try and feel more comfort.  Chouinard et al's paper in my previous post illustrates that the body tends to generate more dopamine receptors on these psych drugs, looking for equilibrium.

 

So when we come off, the brain and nervous system are equipped with more dopamine receptors than we would otherwise have.  I was quite conscious of my body getting its dopamine back, and knowing it would take some time to even out.

 

This is where I think I will have to park the alcohol seriously for a long period during my next taper.  With more ability to soak up dopamine due to the extra receptors, and the dopamine antagonists out of the system, I could clearly flood my 'reward centres' by drinking more than was sensible.  This was leading me to frequent flashbacks with a lot of grief and anger I have been working through this year.  I think I would have been ok if I had not been disinhibited by the alcohol to "tell a few people what I REALLY think".  

By OK I mean not re-entangled with a dark ages mental health system.

 

 

Heyduke i was curious about receptor changes in the brain from long use of antipsychotics theory...my idea is the changed brain is like a cup with water everything is fine until the size of the cup changes then the water overflows si,milarly receptor changes to antipsychotics by increasing cause the bodys own chemicals that start to be produced on discontinuing medication to overflow the receptors and cause mental symptoms. This is why the medjcine works because it takes a while for the brain to stop producing its own chemicals and rely on the ones being injested. So the cycle is take drugs which change receptor count then be delendent on the drugs to not have the symptoms that result from the brain producing its own chemicals again on discontinuation of medication with receptor changes from the medication the brains own chemicals overflow the brajn causing symptoms unless taking more medication which replaces the brains production of chemicals. The medication chemicals since they arent natural cause a lot of functional problems over time pssibly. The theory i have to break this cycle is to adjust medication slowly over many years in order to grow different receptors over time returning the brain to its more original state if possible therefore slow taper over many years with stopping the taper for long periods of time during overflow of brain chemicals until the receptors can die or thin out or adapt is an idea. 

 

Do you think this theory holds any water? 

[hayduke]

@guile2 The paper does imply that longer tapers or holds might be necessary.  I only noticed I was getting obviously twitchier at the lower levels of olanzapine which I attributed to getting used to dopamine again.  Looking back in my thread, I was noting twitchiness a few months before I jumped to zero.

 

I don't know enough about neuroscience to guess about what might help besides staying clear of things like alcohol towards the end of the taper, and probably longer holds on the way.  The other thing, which Chouinard also notes, is life stresses aggravate the situation.  While I was aware of that, they were sure piling up for me.  Not being able to afford therapy for a while didn't help either.

A lot more research could be fruitfully done on this.  I'm only really aware of this paper and Mark Horowitz' work.

Edited August 25, 2023 by hayduke

[guile2]

1 minute ago, hayduke said:

@guile2 it does imply that longer tapers or holds might be necessary.  I only noticed I was getting obviously twitchier at the lower levels of olanzapine which I attributed to getting used to dopamine again.  Looking back in my thread, I was noting twitchiness a few months before I jumped to zero.

 

I don't know enough about neuroscience to guess about what might help besides staying clear of things like alcohol towards the end of the taper, and probably longer holds on the way.  The other thing, which Chouinard also notes, is life stresses aggravate the situation.  While I was aware of that, they were sure piling up for me.

The other thing that might make a difference in brain chemistry is just hpw much medicine has been taken for how long. In my case 20mg of zyprexabfor 6 years very high dose and very long time. I am on invega instead now which is a million times better but since failing to get off completely because i wasnt going slow enough? I may not be able to completely get off for years and years to grow my brain back but at least i can be on medication that is better than zyprexa and lower doses than expected and have a better quality of life. 

 

Not sure if my theries have truth...

[hayduke]

@guile2 it stands to reason that being kept on these drugs for such long periods will add to the problem.  I take heart in the many members who have successfully withdrawn after such long periods though.

 

If my pestering relatives hadn't been so aggressive I don't think I would have had this upset either.  I'm just working out how to be wiser about how to survive all that.

[guile2]

4 minutes ago, hayduke said:

@guile2 it stands to reason that being kept on these drugs for such long periods will add to the problem.  I take heart in the many members who have successfully withdrawn after such long periods though.

 

If my pestering relatives hadn't been so aggressive I don't think I would have had this upset either.  I'm just working out how to be wiser about how to survive all that.

(Wanted to add to last post) Also things like alcohol or cigarrettes might cause more problems than usual bc of changes in receptor chemistry to handle them. A natural diet non drug herbs roots all organic vegetables and fruits juicing excercise to cause healthy growth. Good sleep hygine if possible.. exiting life stressors from abusive people and other wellness activities might be supportive. This helps somewhat flr me but isnt a "cure"

[hayduke]

Giving up alcohol I find difficult, so much social life is based around it and I do enjoy it.  The day will come though.

 

Thinking about getting off these shots makes me grit my teeth as the drug sticks around so long, we are given a moving dosage target right around the time we are aiming to establish its stability.  I will try and find some BPL graphs for these long release injections later.  But it's still all gonna be a fudge for a while to stabilise on tablets again.

 

I saw in your thread @guile2 that you just came straight off the injections - clearly that is too quick a taper, you might agree.  It seems that cross tapering onto an oral dosage will be needed to do this safely.

 

The paliperidone tablets also have the problem of being very short-acting, ironically, making them probably unsuitable if you only want to titrate and dose once per day.  Risperidone liquid is available apparently, seems like a reasonable starting point to consider.

[guile2]

But i think there is wisdom in not beating yourself up for taking a low dose of antipshychotics. These things are designed for a lifetime of dependence on them it changes brain chemistry to acvomplish it which is extremely hard to change to regular again. And the drugs also cause weakness to mental problems from damage to chemistry so there is no shame in being as well as possible even if thats taking a balanced lower dose of medication in my opinion. So much better than being a mental vegetable like some people end up i have seen. 

[hayduke]

2 minutes ago, guile2 said:

But i think there is wisdom in not beating yourself up for taking a low dose of antipshychotics. These things are designed for a lifetime of dependence on them it changes brain chemistry to acvomplish it which is extremely hard to change to regular again. And the drugs also cause weakness to mental problems from damage to chemistry so there is no shame in being as well as possible even if thats taking a balanced lower dose of medication in my opinion. So much better than being a mental vegetable like some people end up i have seen. 

 

That might suit you.  I'm not done yet.