Arbor: dealing with PAWS

[arbor]

All my best to you @PortugueseSea

Thank you for stopping by,

Arbor🕊️

[DataGuy]

On 9/9/2022 at 8:33 PM, arbor said:

Dear @Oaktree1  Wheeoo, I had a packed day yesterday with work and family, but didn't expect to be this tired today.  For an update to your kind post, I can say I've been doing better, meaning I guess, more moments of contentment, better sleep, times of focus.  I'd lost a lot of weight and am now regaining it.  As my body repairs, I'm not sure who I'll be--it would be great if I develop patience, especially for my piano pounding neighbor.  She's like a mean little agitated monkey doused in perfume, fuming over the keys. 

 

Have you considered sleeping and living at work, @arbor 😂. J/k. Very funny description. Some people were just not meant to live packed together with others. 

 

Glad to hear you are gaining some weight back. Great evidence of healing that can't really be questioned. I hope you continue to feel better and also get some peace and quiet. Maybe we can buy your neighbor an all-expenses paid vacation in a soundproof booth somewhere. Let me know if you need me to send you some masks to deal with that wildfire smoke. Sounds nasty!

[arbor]

Hi @DataGuy  I hope you're doing ok.  Your words have cheered me.  I took a small trip recently which proved too much, so now I'm taking it easy.  I'd move into my office.  However, I work (with Zoom) at home! 🙉  When I think I can weather it, I'll see about moving.  You were able to move--and I'm so glad for you.  

Happily, there are no fires today nearby.  The unseasonal heat though is ominous.   Climate change or w/d, I take each day one-day-at-a-time.  So good to hear from you!

Arbor 💜

[Oaktree1]

Hi Arbor,

 

Just checking how you are.  You haven't been on the site in a while and I wondered if you are taking a break for your own self care or whether you are ok.

 

Oaktree

[BrokenWings]

@arborHey, just popping in to see how you have been doing. I have been relatively stable the last few weeks with no major setbacks thankfully. I hope you are doing well and continuing to improve.

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1  Thank you for stopping by.  After my recent trip, I had a strong down-turn in symptoms.  For one thing, I'd exposed myself (however briefly) to the flu which turned out to be a daunting version.  I'm still slowly recovering.  Patience with the mental negativity has been utterly challenging.  Therefore, I'm relieved to report that the depression is a little bit less gripping this morning.  No one would believe the anguish we have to endure going through w/d.  (I've practically worn my nose out with concentrating on my in and out breath!)

Thank you for being there.  It makes a big difference.

Hugs to you and positive thoughts towards your healing, dear Oaktree,

Arbor

 

[arbor]

@BrokenWings🕊️  I've been thinking about you and wondering how you're doing.  Thank you for sharing your latest update.  What wonderful words:  "relatively stable".  I'm climbing all over them.  It's good to know that you're getting a break and that things are going in a positive direction.  Just thinking about your journey, I feel much better.  As I wrote above to Oaktree1, I'm coming out of a rough patch.  Still, I feel like I'm a rowboat hitched to your wake.

Thanks again,

Arbor

[Onmyway]

38 minutes ago, arbor said:

Dear @Oaktree1  Thank you for stopping by.  After my recent trip, I had a strong down-turn in symptoms.  For one thing, I'd exposed myself (however briefly) to the flu which turned out to be a daunting version.  I'm still slowly recovering.  Patience with the mental negativity has been utterly challenging.  Therefore, I'm relieved to report that the depression is a little bit less gripping this morning.  No one would believe the anguish we have to endure going through w/d.  (I've practically worn my nose out with concentrating on my in and out breath!)

Thank you for being there.  It makes a big difference.

Hugs to you and positive thoughts towards your healing, dear Oaktree,

Arbor

 

So sorry things have been so difficult @arbor, 

I totally understand the level of anguish and the inhuman strength it takes to even survive through this  torture. I am glad that the grip of the depression has lessened and I am hoping that it will continue to do so. You are in my thoughts. I thank  the warrior in you who is fighting fiercely. We will all celebrate when we overcome all this. Until then, please take good care of yourself with as much compassion as you can manage. 

Sending you good thoughts. May you find peace and joy!

OMW

 

[BrokenWings]

@arbor I am so sorry to hear about your recent illness and setbacks. I am glad to hear you are recovering from the illness and the depression is easing a bit.

 

5 hours ago, arbor said:

No one would believe the anguish we have to endure going through w/d.  (I've practically worn my nose out with concentrating on my in and out breath!)

Sadly this is reality, as most people do not understand the daily hellish symptoms we must endure on top of all other life events. Hang in there and keep fighting. We will prevail and fully recover. 💙

[arbor]

Dear @Onmyway--I so appreciate your message.  It defintiely gives me strength.  I sense our journies becoming one journey--as we all pull one another along.  Thinking of you, OMW with warmth and gladness,

Arbor

[arbor]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:51 PM, BrokenWings said:

We will prevail and fully recover. 💙

Dear @BrokenWingsI just shared with a friend, "BrokenWings has "been relatively stable the last few weeks with no major setbacks".  He knows how much I value yours and everyone here's words of encouragement.

Sending you hugs,

Arbor

[arbor]

Dear @Mirtazapine20mg I send you best wishes and hope that you're doing ok.

Arbor 💜

[Onmyway]

Hi @arbor, I was thinking of you, wondering how you are and hoping that you are finding peace and joy. 

 

🤗

[arbor]

Ah, thank you, @Onmyway  So good to hear from you.  I've been in a wave on and off recently.  It may have to do with cutting back my thyroid medication.  Now that I'm off ssri's, my thyroid levels have improved, plus one of the side effects of levothyroxine is osteoporosis.  Or in fact, anything can still cause awful, awful waves.  I find walks and Claire Weekes help during the day, and reading buddhism when I wake at night helps to go back to sleep.  "Letting go" of the negative ruminations is really hard for me without the prompts.  My previous life is demolished.  I try not to think about it.  Everyday I am grateful to this site.

I love reading your updates.  It means so much to know how you're doing.  Up or down, thanks for sharing.  I send you hugs and thoughts of healing. 💗🙏🌱🕊️

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

Hi Arbor,

 

Thanks for posting on my own thread.  I am doing more updates there related solely to symptoms I hope.  That sentence you wrote above - 'my previous life is demolished'....well you could not have described my own situation better and I think the situations of many here who have had to go through this withdrawal process largely alone and unsupported except mainly for this site.  

 

I am sorry to hear that you are in a wave but at the same time it is good news that your thyroid function is improving and that you are able to cut back on that thyroid drug.  I followed Laura Cantero's story about her own withdrawal and she stopped that drug I think even though she was still having serious thyroid issues which have now completely cleared up.  Of course she was a bit younger when she did so and I think as we get older everything takes a bit longer so it's good that you are tapering it.  

 

Pretty much everything can throw me into a wave too so again you are not alone in that but it can be hard to bear.  It's great that the Claire Weekes is helping.  You are really taking proactive action on your symptoms.  I wish the rumination would stop for me - it is hard dealing with it.  I still have to work on that.  Going to go for my walk now.

 

Wishing that your wave ends very soon and that things settle down.

 

Oaktree

[arbor]

Thank you for your post @Oaktree1  It really helps.  I love picturing you going off for your walk.  I have to say, I truly hate the ruminations.  I wish for all of us to be free of them.

Thanks too for the Laura Cantero reference.  I'll look it up.

Warm hugs to you,

Arbor

[getofflex]

On 10/29/2022 at 6:13 PM, arbor said:

Now that I'm off ssri's, my thyroid levels have improved, plus one of the side effects of levothyroxine is osteoporosis.

Interesting.  I'm also glad to learn of the higher risk of osteoporosis.  

 

On 10/29/2022 at 6:13 PM, arbor said:

I've been in a wave on and off recently.  It may have to do with cutting back my thyroid medication

Arbor, I'm sorry to hear that you are in a wave.  My thoughts and prayers are with you today.  

 

On 10/29/2022 at 6:13 PM, arbor said:

"Letting go" of the negative ruminations is really hard for me without the prompts.

I have the issue with ruminations, too.  I personally find giving something to God, then letting go of it helps, although sometimes it's impossible for me to do.  

 

On 10/29/2022 at 6:13 PM, arbor said:

My previous life is demolished.

I really get this.  I've lost family and friends during this withdrawal period.  However, in some cases this is good, because the person was negative and toxic, but I was too numbed from the Lexapro to realize it.  

 

I'm currently in the gradual process of rebuilding a new life.  I'm thankful for a new friend I made named Carol.  

[arbor]

Thank you for this warm message @getofflex.

3 hours ago, getofflex said:

I have the issue with ruminations, too.  I personally find giving something to God, then letting go of it helps, although sometimes it's impossible for me to do.  

I really appreciate the serenity of being around people when they practise doing this.  The reminder is calming especially during w/d.  A difficulty I have is feeling quickly overwhelmed at doing various tasks out in the world.  I will think of your words while I take on the grocery store today 🙏

 

If it's useful here is some added info on levothyroxine.  While studies are mixed, new ones are suggesting that levothyroxine is not helpul for older adults with subclinically 

low thyroid.     Thyroid Hormone Therapy for Older Adults with Subclinical ...https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ..

by DJ Stott · 2017 · Cited by 401 — Thyroid Hormone Therapy for Older Adults with Subclinical Hypothyroidism. N Engl J Med. 2017 Jun 29;

 

In older adults with subclinical hypothyroidism, levothyroxine did not improve symptoms or tiredness.

Shah R.Ann Intern Med. 2017 Aug 15;167(4):JC14. doi: 10.7326/ACPJC-2017-167-4-014.PMID: 28806795 

3 hours ago, getofflex said:

I'm currently in the gradual process of rebuilding a new life.  I'm thankful for a new friend I made named Carol.  

This is heartwarming to hear.  

 

3 hours ago, getofflex said:

I was too numbed from the Lexapro

It's taken me my whole w/d time to be able to see and accept how true this numbing was for me.  I am currently reading Cracked, The Unhappy Truth about Psychiatry, by James Davies.  One chapter addresses the quality of this numbing from various patients, and interestingly, from their partners' point of view.

 

Many hugs,

Arbor 💜

[DataGuy]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:13 PM, arbor said:

Ah, thank you, @Onmyway  So good to hear from you.  I've been in a wave on and off recently.  It may have to do with cutting back my thyroid medication.  Now that I'm off ssri's, my thyroid levels have improved, plus one of the side effects of levothyroxine is osteoporosis.  Or in fact, anything can still cause awful, awful waves.  I find walks and Claire Weekes help during the day, and reading buddhism when I wake at night helps to go back to sleep.  "Letting go" of the negative ruminations is really hard for me without the prompts.  My previous life is demolished.  I try not to think about it.  Everyday I am grateful to this site.

I love reading your updates.  It means so much to know how you're doing.  Up or down, thanks for sharing.  I send you hugs and thoughts of healing. 💗🙏🌱🕊️

Arbor

 

Glad to hear your updates @arbor. Sorry you have been in a wave recently. I agree the prompts are important. I remember during the worst phases of withdrawal I would actually forget that there were things I could do to make myself feel better. Sometimes we just unwittingly allow the stupor to take over and need to be shaken out of it. 

 

I am working about 60% of a work week now and it is exhausting. I work and then spend at least a couple days recovering. Then work again...lol. It is a rough cycle for now, but hoping to get used to it. 

 

Wishing you the best and hope you are able to spend some quality time in nature (and that the air quality has improved!). Happy you are able to read some Buddhist literature. Remember to have compassion for yourself 😊🙏.

[getofflex]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:39 PM, arbor said:

I really appreciate the serenity of being around people when they practise doing this.  The reminder is calming especially during w/d.

Even though I do it, I often end up forgetting I did this and ruminating again.  But then I turn it over again, and again...... ha.  

 

On 10/31/2022 at 2:39 PM, arbor said:

If it's useful here is some added info on levothyroxine.  While studies are mixed, new ones are suggesting that levothyroxine is not helpul for older adults with subclinically 

low thyroid.

This is good to know.  My hypothyroidism was easily detected with blood tests.  My energy is fine if I sleep OK the night before, so I think my thyroid is OK. 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 2:39 PM, arbor said:

It's taken me my whole w/d time to be able to see and accept how true this numbing was for me.  I am currently reading Cracked, The Unhappy Truth about Psychiatry, by James Davies.  One chapter addresses the quality of this numbing from various patients, and interestingly, from their partners' point of view.

I may have to check out that book.  

 

I'm still praying for you and thinking of you Arbor.  

[arbor]

Dear @DataGuy--I am so happy to hear from you.  I've been unable to post for a number of days, but for awhile anyway my computer is operating.

On 11/2/2022 at 11:44 AM, DataGuy said:

I am working about 60% of a work week now and it is exhausting. I work and then spend at least a couple days recovering. Then work again...lol. It is a rough cycle for now, but hoping to get used to it. 

Wow, 60%--while still recovering--that's big!  Thank you for posting how you're doing.  It means such a lot, whether you're in a window (I hope) or a wave, to hear your fellow voice as we go through this astounding ordeal.

 

On 11/2/2022 at 11:44 AM, DataGuy said:

I would actually forget that there were things I could do to make myself feel better.

So true👾

Sometimes at night, even a few sentences can be enough to nudge me away from the "aversive' mind state and remind me that it's a delusion to think of my (negative) thoughts as realer than the fabrication of conditioned neurons (skewed by w/d as well).  Because my memory is so blown, I've come to recognize that I have to keep rehearing/rereading the teachings.  Anyway, it's helping me survive.

 

All my very best to you DataGuy ⚾

Warm hugs,

Arbor

[Erell]

Hello dear @arbor, 

 

How nice it is to hear from you everytime. 

It sometimes seems incredible how much difference the mere existence and a few words from “strangers” can make to a day, and that's what I find beautiful in the midst of all this mess, the peer support, the faith we have in our companions' abilities to move forward and heal, the joy we feel when we know they are safe and the comfort of knowing they exist. 

 

Yes, our previous life is somehow demolished, I think a lot of us can relate to this sentence. Building new foundations while feeling awful mentally and physically is quite a challenge, and we can often wonder how we will maange to do so. But I feel soothed when I remember that this rebuilding work can be done with the support of our peer community and that people like you are part of it.

 

While feeling overwhelmed out there in the world, we can quickly feel so lonely. You're not Arbor, we are all rooting for you and thinking of you with compassion, understanding, and confidence in your ability to navigate this very particular journey ❤️ 

[arbor]

Thank you dear @Erell--I treasure this message, and send you across the globe warm hugs and steadfast thoughts of your inevitable recovery. 💜🕊️💮

Arbor

[RachelSusan]

On 9/30/2022 at 5:30 AM, DataGuy said:

She's like a mean little agitated monkey doused in perfume, fuming over the keys. 

Hi Arbor,

It's been way too long since I have posted on your thread.  I see the wonderful support you give others; it's always a pleasure for me to read what you have to say.

 

Is that agitated neighbor still driving you nuts with her piano playing?

 

I don't know if you are currently in a wave. I hope not, but if you are I send my best wishes for a recovery.

 

Warm wishes and hugs,

Rachel

[Onmyway]

On 10/30/2022 at 12:13 AM, arbor said:

Ah, thank you, @Onmyway  So good to hear from you.  I've been in a wave on and off recently.  It may have to do with cutting back my thyroid medication.  Now that I'm off ssri's, my thyroid levels have improved, plus one of the side effects of levothyroxine is osteoporosis.  Or in fact, anything can still cause awful, awful waves.  I find walks and Claire Weekes help during the day, and reading buddhism when I wake at night helps to go back to sleep.  "Letting go" of the negative ruminations is really hard for me without the prompts.  My previous life is demolished.  I try not to think about it.  Everyday I am grateful to this site.

I love reading your updates.  It means so much to know how you're doing.  Up or down, thanks for sharing.  I send you hugs and thoughts of healing. 💗🙏🌱🕊️

Arbor

 

Dear @arbor, 

I read your thread almost a week ago now and have been thinking about it a lot, especially about this: "My previous life is demolished." I have so many thoughts and feelings on that topic and the more I have been thinking about it over the last week, the more complex the link seems between previous lives and current lives. I hesitate about writing this because I don't want to make it about me but my thoughts come from my own experience so I will share them anyway. 

 

I have lived in multiple (5) countries over the years  for extended time periods and going back to them makes the contrast between the past and the present stark. I think about the past often, to the point  that certain events of the past seem to rule a lot of  my present. Part of it is due to unresolved trauma and part of it is due to trying to make sense of life itself, its thread and its continuity (or lack there of). There was a period in the beginning of withdrawal where everything seemed nostalgic, where I could relive in vivid detail (and sadness) previous events when I visited various places. But as I have grown older and had more distance from the various countries in which I have lived I realize how foreign these past places feel to me now.

 

I am now visiting one of my former stomping grounds where I had lots of happy moments and every time I returned before I would be inundated with (usually warm) feelings at being here. Not this time. It is not that I am not enjoying my time here now, but suddenly the scales have come off my eyes and I see both the good and the bad things I felt about this place. It has lost the luster of fantasy. 

 

This makes me think about the past a bit in disbelief - "I used to like this museum?", "I used to walk in that park every day?", to the point that the past doesn't even feel real to me, it feels as if it happened to someone else. I know I need a good cry, to mourn the loss of connection to these places. I suspect over time, if I keep returning, I will need to build a new relationship to these places devoid of the romanticizing and the  fantasy. But right now it hurts. It feels like a devastating loss. I don't know if it is withdrawal that is making me feel this way or if it is a natural response that everybody goes through as we get older but it makes me want to hold onto the past really tight and not let any more of it go away. 

 

I know you are talking (also) of a different kind of "demolishing," the one that left us bare and scared and feeling vulnerable and out of control. I get so angry about this sometimes. I look at my peers and see how much they have accomplished during the years I have wasted visiting hell. I can tell myself that I have an 'excuse' but I also feel guilty and ashamed about it (why would I be looking for excuses otherwise?)

 

During my better days, which are luckily slightly more now than they were 3 years ago, I resolve to look ahead. To think of this as the adventure that is life, the box of chocolates that I got - some really bitter, some with gravel inside that breaks a tooth or two, some with poison but surrounded with unbearable sweetness in the people I have met while recovering - people like you who with your presence and sweet words have brought so much calm to me in my worst moments even while you are struggling yourself. How grateful I am for that!  

 

I don't know if I told you before but I didn't know the meaning of arbor until today. I didn't want to look it up because to me it was a combination word - of the Spanish 'arbol' (probably because of the avatar and because I love trees) and the English 'harbor.' I know it is not related to the latter but I have always felt so much calm and settlement with your posts that it has felt like harbor to me.

 

Thank you for being here @arbor. I am so sorry that life is so difficult right now and you are feeling the loss of what has been. Loss is painful, especially when we feel vulnerable and still not entirely in control of what is around us. I am extending a broken wing to a fellow broken bird across oceans. Maybe we can still fly together this way? And one day, one day we will fly for real... 

 

Thank you for being here with me @arbor. Wishing you peace and strength to rebuild even stronger and hoping that I can share that path with you! 

 

Big hugs! 

OMW

[arbor]

Dear @Onmyway  I hold your message close in my heart--along with our broken wings.  The trajectory you describe reminds me of my own.  It's taken me awhile to reply because your wonderful message has brought up so many thoughts.  I have a hard time expressing myself coherently--in words or speech,  I'm hoping this effect of w/d will improve.  Today I'm just going to plunge in.  Your words are very meaningful to me. 

On 11/6/2022 at 2:16 PM, Onmyway said:

suddenly the scales have come off my eyes and I see both the good and the bad things I felt about this place. It has lost the luster of fantasy. 

 

On 11/6/2022 at 2:16 PM, Onmyway said:

I will need to build a new relationship to these places devoid of the romanticizing and the  fantasy.

 

What a strong insight into one of the possible effects of the drugs--at least from my experience.  I feel that the SSRI's allowed for a greater romanticization of my past as I held it, and of the present as I was living it.  Now I'm amazed to consider the many things I was able to overlook, and thus defend myself from psychologically.  Unfortunately, it led to making very unrealistic decisions which I now feel trapped in.

On 11/6/2022 at 2:16 PM, Onmyway said:

I know you are talking (also) of a different kind of "demolishing," the one that left us bare and scared and feeling vulnerable and out of control. I get so angry about this sometimes. I look at my peers and see how much they have accomplished during the years I have wasted visiting hell. I can tell myself that I have an 'excuse' but I also feel guilty and ashamed about it (why would I be looking for excuses otherwise?)

 

Thank you again for your insights.  Guilty and ashamed.  I wonder if we had had a more nurturing culure in the first place if I'd have felt an SSRI was necessary.  And now in w/d, social scenes are mainly alienating for longer than initial niceties.  Not only does society not understand w/d, as well as possibly judge set backs, but worst of all, I currently lack all tact!  I can't seem to control myself from blurting out frustrations and negative opinions.  Afterwards of course, I ruminate.  Sleep goes by the wayside.  When I pass the homeless communities I recognize that many are in w/d, and am aware of the financial disaster of w/d, and the fact that in this country there's no net other than hospitalizations and more drugs.  (I'm on the brink of a bunch of fearful opinions...!) 

On 11/6/2022 at 2:16 PM, Onmyway said:

But right now it hurts. It feels like a devastating loss.

Yes.  It makes sense.  For me the sadness has been one of the main topics of rumination and subject of nightmares--one of the hardest challenges.  Today I feel strong enough to say I believe this will get better for us.  Part of the strength comes from the boost of your kindness.  It counters the internalized pressures of the culture.  I deeply thank you for your wisdom and generosity, OMW.

Arbor

[arbor]

Dear @RachelSusan--It's so good of you to drop by my thread.  I hope you're doing ok.  Unfortunately, my grandiose neighbor is as loud as ever.  Usually I try to go out when she starts.  Or I have a rifle-range set of earmuffs that muffles her somewhat.  Otherwise I'm plugging along.  I still can't watch movies, but I can read.  I'm finding it to be increasingly relaxing to lose myself in print.  I'll tell you, any kind of relief from w/d feels heavenly!!!!!!!!!

 

Thinking of you 💗

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:22 PM, arbor said:

On 11/6/2022 at 10:16 PM, Onmyway said:

I know you are talking (also) of a different kind of "demolishing," the one that left us bare and scared and feeling vulnerable and out of control. I get so angry about this sometimes. I look at my peers and see how much they have accomplished during the years I have wasted visiting hell. I can tell myself that I have an 'excuse' but I also feel guilty and ashamed about it (why would I be looking for excuses otherwise?)

 

Thank you again for your insights.  Guilty and ashamed.  I wonder if we had had a more nurturing culure in the first place if I'd have felt an SSRI was necessary.  And now in w/d, social scenes are mainly alienating for longer than initial niceties.  Not only does society not understand w/d, as well as possibly judge set backs, but worst of all, I currently lack all tact!  I can't seem to control myself from blurting out frustrations and negative opinions.  Afterwards of course, I ruminate.  Sleep goes by the wayside.  When I pass the homeless communities I recognize that many are in w/d, and am aware of the financial disaster of w/d, and the fact that in this country there's no net other than hospitalizations and more drugs.  (I'm on the brink of a bunch of fearful opinions...!) 

 

Thanks for expressing these thoughts in print (well cyberprint).  A nurturing culture?  I wonder if we ever had one of those really in the West?  No our society as a whole does not understand withdrawal but all each of us can do is state our reality and accept that sometimes we will not be calm and we have a right to that - anyone who has suffered because of medical malpractice and bloated greedy pharma industry has a right to that.

 

I feel 'bare and scared and vulnerable and out of control' (what a beautifully vivid line)  - a lot of the time;  unfortunately a lot of the time I am terrified out of my wits - I forget things, forget to eat, forget my body, my mind runs round and round seeking an exit.

 

My biggest fear is ending up homeless.  They don't have a homeless problem in Finland because everyone is housed, even those with a drug problem.  The drugs addicts most of them cleaned up once they had a roof over their head and security.   A decent society would provide that for everyone but that's like the parable of the loaves and the fishes - it's a fantasy.

 

I have ordered Gabor Mate's book 'The Myth of Normal Trauma Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture'.  I saw him speak on the annual  Youtube 'Drop the Disorder' festival.  He was asked what one could do given that we live in a toxic culture and I think he said something about being authentic no matter what. 

 

The lack of an edit function that you refer to Arbor; the blurting out of frustrations and 'negativity' that you refer to ....it sounds to me like that's the truth coming out.  Unfortunately most 'normies' who have not had their life demolished don't want to hear it.  Incidentally the survivors of the death camps reported similar experiences.  People wanted to forget all about the war and no one wanted to hear about what people who'd been in the concentration camps had gone through.   I have read Anton Gill's book 'Conversations with Concentration Camp Survivor's' multiple times so I am not making an empty statement here.  I read that book in my 20's - it was the only way I could deal with what happened to me in the psychiatric system as no one else wanted to listen.   I am no equating myself with concentration camp survivors but there is a small similarity because  the psychiatric system is state sponsored and the drugs and treatments damage and in many cases destroy people's health and the stigma of the heavier psychiatric labels remove people from civil society.  I don't think that is an overstatement.  Psychiatry as you once wrote Arbor is a largely toxic institution but it's still largely in charge in the Western world in matters of emotional distress.

 

The concentration camp victims were silenced until the 1970's when that TV series 'Holocaust' created a renewed interest and all of a sudden people wanted to hear survivor's stories.  People who have not been down the road you, Onmyway and others on this site have gone on haven't got a clue; and most of them unfortunately don't want to know because life is hard and they just want to get on with their own stuff - whether it's the promotion they are seeking, or the next property they want to buy or their pension being affected by the war.   People who are damaged by psychiatric drugs...well to most 'normies' hearing that is equivalent to hearing about someone claiming that their health has been damaged by radio waves - it sounds nebulous to them because the mainstream narrative is so strongly weighted against the evidence.  I have tried to tell my story to one family member and all I got back in response was the positive experiences people she knew of had with their psychiatrist or a psychiatric hospital so I just gave up eventually.  

 

On the plus side at least you can lose yourself in print.

 

Oaktree

[Onmyway]

3 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

 

Thanks for expressing these thoughts in print (well cyberprint).  A nurturing culture?  I wonder if we ever had one of those really in the West?  No our society as a whole does not understand withdrawal but all each of us can do is state our reality and accept that sometimes we will not be calm and we have a right to that - anyone who has suffered because of medical malpractice and bloated greedy pharma industry has a right to that.

 

I feel 'bare and scared and vulnerable and out of control' (what a beautifully vivid line)  - a lot of the time;  unfortunately a lot of the time I am terrified out of my wits - I forget things, forget to eat, forget my body, my mind runs round and round seeking an exit.

 

My biggest fear is ending up homeless.  They don't have a homeless problem in Finland because everyone is housed, even those with a drug problem.  The drugs addicts most of them cleaned up once they had a roof over their head and security.   A decent society would provide that for everyone but that's like the parable of the loaves and the fishes - it's a fantasy.

 

I have ordered Gabor Mate's book 'The Myth of Normal Trauma Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture'.  I saw him speak on the annual  Youtube 'Drop the Disorder' festival.  He was asked what one could do given that we live in a toxic culture and I think he said something about being authentic no matter what. 

 

The lack of an edit function that you refer to Arbor; the blurting out of frustrations and 'negativity' that you refer to ....it sounds to me like that's the truth coming out.  Unfortunately most 'normies' who have not had their life demolished don't want to hear it.  Incidentally the survivors of the death camps reported similar experiences.  People wanted to forget all about the war and no one wanted to hear about what people who'd been in the concentration camps had gone through.   I have read Anton Gill's book 'Conversations with Concentration Camp Survivor's' multiple times so I am not making an empty statement here.  I read that book in my 20's - it was the only way I could deal with what happened to me in the psychiatric system as no one else wanted to listen.   I am no equating myself with concentration camp survivors but there is a small similarity because  the psychiatric system is state sponsored and the drugs and treatments damage and in many cases destroy people's health and the stigma of the heavier psychiatric labels remove people from civil society.  I don't think that is an overstatement.  Psychiatry as you once wrote Arbor is a largely toxic institution but it's still largely in charge in the Western world in matters of emotional distress.

 

The concentration camp victims were silenced until the 1970's when that TV series 'Holocaust' created a renewed interest and all of a sudden people wanted to hear survivor's stories.  People who have not been down the road you, Onmyway and others on this site have gone on haven't got a clue; and most of them unfortunately don't want to know because life is hard and they just want to get on with their own stuff - whether it's the promotion they are seeking, or the next property they want to buy or their pension being affected by the war.   People who are damaged by psychiatric drugs...well to most 'normies' hearing that is equivalent to hearing about someone claiming that their health has been damaged by radio waves - it sounds nebulous to them because the mainstream narrative is so strongly weighted against the evidence.  I have tried to tell my story to one family member and all I got back in response was the positive experiences people she knew of had with their psychiatrist or a psychiatric hospital so I just gave up eventually.  

 

On the plus side at least you can lose yourself in print.

 

Oaktree

@Oaktree1, 

I loved reading your post and had just a few quotes about nobody wanting to hear about trauma. Judith Herman, one of my heroes, the first person to really write about trauma and study it in any sense has an amazing book Trauma and Recovery but it is heartbreaking to read and I am not recommending it to anyone who is in withdrawal (though I did read it then). But two of her quotes echo your sentiments about forgetting: 

 

“In order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does everything in his power to promote forgetting. Secrecy and silence are the perpetrator’s first line of defense. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure that no one listens. To this end, he marshals an impressive array of arguments, from the most blatant denial to the most sophisticated and elegant rationalization. After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies: it never happened; the victim lies; the victim exaggerates; the victim brought it upon herself; and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on. The more powerful the perpetrator, the greater is his prerogative to name and define reality, and the more completely his arguments prevail.”
― Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence - From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror

 

“It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.”
― Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence--From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror

 

“Those who attempt to describe the atrocities that they have witnessed also risk their own credibility.
To speak publicly about one’s knowledge of atrocities is to invite the stigma that attaches to victims….
Denial, repression and dissociation operate on a Social, as well as an individual level.”
― Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence - From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror

 

There are more points in her book about how trauma creates both the compulsion to speak, what @arbor is talking about, and at the same time the survivor's ability to be coherent about something so awful is not always there.  

 

I don't think anyone has said it better! 

OMW

[Oaktree1]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:32 AM, Onmyway said:

Those who attempt to describe the atrocities that they have witnessed also risk their own credibility.
To speak publicly about one’s knowledge of atrocities is to invite the stigma that attaches to victims….
Denial, repression and dissociation operate on a Social, as well as an individual level.”
― Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence - From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror

OMW,

 

I am trespassing a bit on Arbor's page (forgive me Arbor) but this entire paragraph should be front page headliner in my country of origin currently where a large cover up of CSA that went on for decades in elite private schools and was supported by and enabled by the entire society has blown up in the last two weeks.   Only in the past few days has the past pupils association made up of the most powerful group of people in this country cancelled their annual business dinner.  The spotlight is finally on the abusers and those who enabled them by staying silent and muzzling the victims.  

 

That is why in our own cases -  people whose lives and health has been damaged by the pharma/psychiatric industry - if we all of us speak or write enough as a group - we can be a force for change.  Being psychologically alone, being unheard or disbelieved in this suffering - the isolation that comes with that can make withdrawal really gruelling I think.  If enough people go public (even on an anonymous board) it will make it that little bit harder for the predators (in this case the grubby money men and women of big pharma and the status obsessed power brokers of psychiatry) to prevail.   

 

"The more powerful the perpetrator, the greater is his prerogative to name and define reality, and the more completely his arguments prevail.”  That is pretty much the description of psychiatry's successful maintenance of a branch of 'medicine'  with no bio markers that has redefined the nature of human suffering as a bio medical illness that can only be controlled by drugs for the past 42 or so years.    I had not heard of Judith Herman before and I see she is a psychiatrist too - if there were more like her out there - along with Maté and Horowitz and Moncrieff and Breggin and Bessel van der Kolk how different things could be.  

 

Arbor I hope you continue to enjoy losing yourself in print - it is so important to have some form of escape and I  really hope that you can find someone quiet to live.  I said a not very nice prayer about your neighbour.  

 

Oaktree1

 

 

 

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1--

18 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I said a not very nice prayer about your neighbour.  

How wickedly wonderful you are 🎈!

18 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

If enough people go public

I sometimes re-wonder if a class-action suit is possible--

 

Hoping your day goes well (enough) today, Oak tree, tree of great strength,

Arbor 💜

[Onmyway]

Dear @arbor, 

I am wondering how you are doing these days? 

 

And just a quick response about a class action suit - I think there were some suits about paxil but not sure if it was about withdrawal - I remember for sure there was one about suicides in young people (Eliot Spitzer led those). I sure hope someone is thinking about this. It would do little for me and the compensation wouldn't be enough to bring back years from my career but it may prevent others from starting these drugs and it may scare the doctors enough that they provide informed consent. 

 

OMW

[arbor]

Thank you for this info @Onmyway.  Also, thank you for asking about how I'm doing.  I've been waiting to respond to see if the window I've been in was something I could report, or (because of recent stresses) something that was about to evanesce.  Actually, it's been holding, the first time since w/d began.  This month marks 4 years since my CT off Prozac.  I can say that unlike last year, this year I see progress:  sleep has improved, my temper is better, depression has lifted.  I still am fragile and do everything I can to avoid stress.  Although my life is stalled, and there remain large questions needing to be picked up again, I'm not in despair.  Slowly my weight has returned.  I'm deeply grateful to be off the medications.  No one should have to go through what we've all been experiencing.  I think of you and the transitions you've been making.  Your spirit is inspiring!

Hugs and well-wishes 💜

Arbor

[Onmyway]

Hi @arbor, 

it made me so happy to hear your update - hope it is holding still. I am celebrating with you. It helps to recognize these small wins and improvements even if we may not be yet back to normal or we still feel fragile. In my family (usually old) people used to say that the most important thing is your health and I had never paid much heed to it when I was younger. I now understand how important that really is, especially mental health. Because when you have that, you actually can tackle the rest of the challenges that come your way. You may not win every battle but at least you can battle and do your best. Soon the feeling of being fragile will go away too as you regain more of your footing! I am so happy for you. I like windows because they show you that it is possible to heal and even if they are followed by more waves you know that they are temporary, you remember again what it felt to feel normal and what you are looking forward to. 

 

I am sending you big hugs and wishing you more and more windows, 

OMW

[Oaktree1]

On 12/3/2022 at 9:34 PM, arbor said:

This month marks 4 years since my CT off Prozac.  I can say that unlike last year, this year I see progress:  sleep has improved, my temper is better, depression has lifted.  I still am fragile and do everything I can to avoid stress.  Although my life is stalled, and there remain large questions needing to be picked up again, I'm not in despair.  Slowly my weight has returned.  I'm deeply grateful to be off the medications. 

Hi Arbor,

 

You wrote this seven days ago and even if you have had a wave since this does sound hopeful particularly the sentences 'I am not in despair' and 'my depression has lifted'.  I am glad that you are getting some respite at last.  You deserve any respite.  Holding out for things to improve given the sheer number of health emergencies due in all probability to the drugs you have had to go through in the past few years takes real grit.  I admire that particularly as you, I think like so many here,  have had to fight your battle against the effects of these drugs largely alone. 

 

It's frightening to suffer through any health crisis but those who suffer from 'recognised' illnesses like cancer, heart disease or serious neurological conditions generally have the comfort and the support of their family, friends and society at large.  For many of us on here - there is no recognition of protracted withdrawal; withdrawal is conflated with the original 'mental health issue' - that makes the battle lonelier and harder so those who come through  it are real heroes even if unsung.  That's my opinion anyway.  Those who try and fail in the attempt are heroes.  I might not get there myself but it gives me a lift when someone else has managed to get to a place of peace.

 

I wish you continued improvements in the next while.

 

Oaktree1

[arbor]

Thank you @Oaktree1  Your support and understanding mean a lot to me.  However we plug along, we're all in this situation together, with so much of the territory unknown.  

Sending wishes for healing and happiness your way 💜

Arbor