j1290: gets off the Wellbutrin and on with life!

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 I wanted to wish you luck on next weeks taper. Please keep us updated. 

 

[j1290]

@RachelSusan  Thank you so much for your encouragement!   This website has truly made it possible for me to get to where I am.   If it weren't for the information here, everybody's contributions, I don't even know where I'd be, probably adding another drug instead of subtracting one.   

Tracking dosage times and w/d symptoms with the daily checklist has been a game changer to get my act together.   I set 2 phone alarms and one app alarm for each dose, I'd never have thought to do that on my own.  Saved my bacon last night, as I'd shut down my phone for a meeting and missed the phone alarms, but the app alarm kept going off after I restarted.  

 

It's been 4 weeks.  If I wanted to be extra cautious, I could probably wait a couple more weeks before lowering my dose.   I think the windows and waves have settled down, but another week or two would get me on even more solid ground.  However, this is a good time work wise to reduce, and the Wellbutrin side effects with the headaches and head pressure and whatnot are disruptive to my daily life, so I decided to start a 9% (half a 75mg pill) reduction today.  One thing I've learned this last year is that the Wellbutrin side effects at max dose never go away, and they're intolerable now.  

 

My prediction is 3 or 4 days of visual intensity, vivid dreams and feelings, periods of more intense paranoia or anxiety, and hopefully minimal W-holes, what I'm calling that effect where I feel like I'm falling down a mental hole. I think the emotional windows and waves will continue for 2 or 3 weeks.  I think it'll all be tolerable, just annoying. 

 

I gotta be brave.  If I could survive this last year of med related turmoil, I can do this.  Then at the end, I'll be down almost 20% from where I started, and hopefully have less wellbutrin headaches and things as the dose goes down.  

 

 

 

 

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 Your logical thinking about when to taper is impressive. Yes, maneuvering around a work schedule is a very legitimate reason for selecting a particular date. Actually it is more than legitimate, it is very smart.

 

A 20% reduction is fantastic.  Tapering is very slow going so when you can look in the rear-view mirror and see 20% behind you it must feel great.

 

I have to agree with you, this website is fantastic.  It never even occurred to me that withdrawal from antidepressants was a thing.  I discovered this website by googling the symptoms when I was on my third night of very little sleep. Seriously, I didn't use words like withdrawal or even the drug name in my search, it was just the symptoms in the search that brought me here. Once I found this site and started reading the light-bulb finally turned on. I was a very stubborn case and yet the mods kept working with me.  By stubborn I mean I kept rushing everything. They were so kind and supportive.

 

Who knows, maybe you won't get any symptoms this time. However if you do at least you know what it is. For me the knowing ahead of time what to expect was a big part of feeling better about the entire process.

 

Thinking of you.

[j1290]

@RachelSusan  Thanks, RachelSusan!   I really pushed the envelope at work with my AD struggle this last year, so I want to take advantage of this opportunity while things are slow.   

 

I crashed when I got down to this level last year.  If I can stabilize at 20% reduction, I'll feel like I'm finally on the right path, which has been the real battle.  What I think happened is the difficult side effects I've been having are simply normal for my max-dose level of Wellbutrin on the IR, which is why they never resolved even though I was on them for 6 months.   I thought they were w/d related problems, because I never put it together that an AD could cause migraines and whatnot through normal use.   Apparently neither did any of the professionals I consulted, who suggested other more serious possibilities.   

 

So you didn't know any of this stuff either!  I was so clueless.  When I started tapering Wellbutrin last year, I rushed everything way too fast, didn't read enough, and had more faith in certain people on my care team's expertise.  Not gonna lie, since I spent most of the last year trying to find a regimen that was stable and kept me functional enough to work, part of me expects the worst.  I just came up with alternate plans A through E, I think I'm going to start creating those for each dose, so I have a map on what to do if things go sideways.   I have a lot of options, and one of them should work.   

 

I'm so with you, that's why this reduction is significant, because now that I have a little data from the first reduction to look at, I'm finding out if any of my working theories hold water about what to expect.   

 

Day 2, I'm about 24 hours since the reduction.  I had night terrors, feel a little slow and low energy today, things are more vivid, but that's about it so far.   I expect the lethargy and slow thinking to resolve in the next day or two, and then a few weeks of night terrors, emotional windows and waves, and the usual head pressure and headaches.   This is annoying, but it's mostly much better than what I went through the last year.   I'm trying not to dwell on it and give it more energy than it deserves.   

 

These few days I'm keeping an eye out for going into WD holes of mental weirdness.  As long as I don't get stuck in them for too long I think I'm fine.  Last time I think they were just for a few hours or so at a time.  Will be interesting to see if that low feeling I'm having progresses into those or not.   

 

The adventure continues!

 

Thanks again for your kind and thoughtful words, @RachelSusan!

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 You seem to have this under control. I follow you and would love to hear the updates, so please keep posting.

 

 

[j1290]

Just a quicky update as I'm using this as a journal of each taper so I better know what to expect next time I do one.  Day 1 I reduced on my afternoon dose, and felt a little weird that evening.  Day 2 I felt sluggish and heavy, almost hungover or 'waterlogged' as the w/d symptom sheet says.   That seemed to get a little better as the day went on, nothing catastrophic but I wouldn't want to feel like this every day.   

 

Today is Day 3, and I feel a little hung over again(describing the feeling, I don't actually drink alcohol), and my brain feels activated in some way as well as what I call locked up and difficult to think, with slight temple pressure.   I think this is similar to how I felt in the previous year on some days, except this is a 4 out of 10 intensity, and the other bad days were closer to an 8.   I'm going to take this as a guide going forward to start my reduction on a Friday, so I might have mild side effects and hopefully the worst of it will be over by the time I go back to work on a Monday.   I don't feel good, but I definitely feel bad in a different way than I did yesterday, and with less heaviness and intensity.   It's a good sign that I'm improving, though, and didn't reduce too much.   

 

So far it's completely tolerable, just annoying, but when I reduce these pills I have to expect to feel discomfort.  This is as much as I can voluntarily tolerate, though.   I'm not tough, I'm glad I didn't go overboard with reducing any more than I have.   

 

I just looked at my notebook, and honestly the switches between time release types and manufacturers were much worse than this so far, as I haven't been having headaches or intense head pressure.   

 

I got through those switches, so I have to think that this will get better too, and somewhere on the other side of the withdrawal I'll be on a lower dose and hopefully have less medicine related side effects.   

 

So far no vivid dreams or weird visual sensations.  It'll be interesting to see if those follow.  

[j1290]

Day 4 of this drop was another 4/10, head lockup and temple pressure starting in the morning, afternoon irritability, took a long nap, and things are a little easier in the evening.   Glad I don't have to work today.   Things are definitely different than the last few days, with less head heaviness, etc. 

 

I felt like this at this time last year, at this same dose, with this same 5x75mg IR(different manufacturer), and it never really improved, even after re-instating to a full dose of IR, leading to me going back to a full dose of XR in June to recover, so I'm naturally a little scared that the same scenario will play out.  I'm trying to remember, that if things go sideways, I have options, and sooner or later things will stabilize.  

 

Honestly I'm disappointed this reduction was so bumpy, and that I haven't recovered to a more functional state by day 4.   Maybe I should go back up by half of what I reduced and see if that helps.    Another part of me says give it 2 weeks to resolve, because that's how long Effexor took between drops to feel better, but that had a much shorter half life so it may not be relevant info.   I spent the better part of a year debilitated by trying to reduce the Wellbutrin.  I'm trying to fight the frustration of being in AD prison, and trying not to fall into despair.  I'm under a lot of unrelated stress, and I hope I'm just being extra emotional due to the med reduction and I'll snap out of it.   

 

If things don't get better, I'm considering to switch to 300MG XR, and 75 MG IR in the afternoon.   I hate the idea of making another change, since I'd be going to a different time release plus it's a Generic that I've never tried before.   However, before I reduced the combination of the 300XR +150 IR  was really one of the better combinations that I found.   I still didn't like the side effects, but they were the least offensive.   

 

That's the bummer about this all.  There is no combination of brand or time release mechanism at 450mg that I am comfortable with, but it's proving to be remarkably difficult to reduce.   

 

On the up side, I haven't had any intense dreams, or abnormal visual sensations, or intense feelings.   My head has felt less on fire, and less activated than yesterday, and this evening I actually had an hour or so where I felt pretty decent.   I also haven't had migraines or that pain in the center of my head that I had more of yesterday.   I haven't fallen into any WD gopher holes of weirdness, and my head doesn't have as much of that heavy feeling as it did yesterday.    

 

This is about the limit of what I can tolerate these days.  Last year when I was fresh to reducing I put up with more extreme side effects, but I didn't really know what I was doing.  

 

Next reduction, if I don't have to backtrack, maybe I will try 5% and see how that goes.   I really didn't expect this to be so rough.   Wishful thinking LOL

[ChessieCat]

It generally takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to a steady/even level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  The 4 week hold on the dose is to give the brain time to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.

 

It is important to listen to your body/symptoms and not reduce again until you are stable.

 

It is generally also better not to jump around in doses.  The brain likes consistency.  The only time I updosed was when the symptoms were really unbearable.

[j1290]

Thank you, Chessie Cat for your insight!   That makes a lot of sense.   Unless there's an emergency, and I'm not there yet, I will reconsider my path on day 7.   I've had to use small doses of prescribed Sumatriptan and Clonidine to manage W/D symptoms today, and they seem to have helped get things under control.   I still have Xanax just in case, and since I haven't had to resort to that, things are not an emergency.   

 

I think I'm getting a little paranoid.  Last reduction I'd have chemical induced paranoia in the mornings, maybe it's just kicking in tonight.   

 

You're so right about the doses.  The idea of changing anything, after doing so much of it this last year in an attempt to get stable, is the last thing I want to do.   My poor brain really does deserve a break.   Fingers crossed for tomorrow!

[ChessieCat]

SA strongly encourages members to learn and use:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

[j1290]

Thanks for the link, ChessieCat!  There are a lot of good resources on that page, I wouldn't have found that on my own and I'm checking them out.  

I'm now watching the video you linked.  How have I not seen this before?!?  Looking forward to the rest of it!

 

So far on Day 5 today, things have been improved so far, I'm happy to report.   I still have head pressure, top of head on fire, headache, etc coming in waves, but at least so far today, they're all less intense than yesterday and easier to tolerate.   Yesterday things were a 4/10, and at least at this time I'm at a 3/10, which is actually pretty close to WD Normal for me, which generally runs from 2-4/10.    

 

My brain doesn't feel as activated as it has since the reduction, which is an enormously welcome change.   This last year was so unpredictable even on my regular dose...the less I dwell on the what-ifs the better.   

 

My senses feel a little more intense today, I had a vivid dream last night, and I'm feeling more emotional.  Worth noting, but so far today only slight headache and less dizziness and pressure.   I'm sure that will ebb and flow today, but the important thing is that I seem to be improving and not headed for a crash or something.   So far so good.

 

 

 

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 I am happy to read that today is a little bit better for you. I have been reading a thread on this site from another person who is involved with Wellbutrin XL. It seems to me that it can get a little tricky with XL and getting one's self to a version that releases at a different rate.  You appear to understand all of this though and seem to have it worked out.

 

I have often though of tapering as someone trying to ski downhill. Some people glide down with no problem, maybe one or two falls at the most.  Then there is me.  I always though of myself as trying slide down the hill while sitting on an old piece of cardboard hitting every pothole, every hill and getting down with absolutely no grace or style. I always told myself, at least I got down. I don't know if you are going to ski down this hill, or go fanny first on an old piece of cardboard like me, or perhaps something in between, but I do know you will get down.  My fingers are crossed that you get to glide down as much as possible.

 

 

[j1290]

Hi @RachelSusan!   It sure is tricky with the different release rates and whatnot.  I will look for that person's thread and see how their experience has been.   

Today has been more or less a WD normal day, which is to say side effects that are more strong than I'd like but not unusually so like the last few days.   I'll take it!   This is just a nuiscence but not debilitating.   It's my hope that as my daily dose gets lower, that my AD Normal will have less severe side effects.   I read in AD forums where people go up to 300 for example and its too strong so they feel better when they return to 150, so if logic has anything to do with it that will work for me too.   

 

If I can become stable on 375 over the next month, I would be over the moon with excitement to finally be making progress.  At least for today, I think it is possible.   This was really just 3 bad days out of 5 for this reduction.  Effexor was much more difficult in that respect, although of course I'm not out of the woods yet.   I expect more bumps in the road for the next few weeks.  

 

hahaha thanks for the visual!!!   It must be so nice for those that can glide down that hill!   Because I spent a year hitting potholes and then had to climb back up to the top to start over, I would consider myself fortunate to just go in one direction, bumps and all!    

Can't wait to make it to the bottom like you!!!

[j1290]

Day 6:   I'm intentionally being quite detailed about this reduction because I've found it extraordinarily helpful to read my old posts at different times.  I used to post on Paxilprogress, and I've recognized a few people here that used to be on it.  I can't recall my username there anymore, but it would be interesting to see my old blog.  

Now that my day is over, it actually wasn't as bad as it could have been, some things are truly improving, and this is work, not fun.   I threw my back out today so that put me in a bit of a mood, and my brain has been very activated today, which isn't my favorite sensation.   I feel unable to think, if I'm honest, a bit of a zombie, and had some struggles today.   

 

Now that said, let's focus on the positive!  Looking back at my notebook with these brilliant W/D symptom sheets, I see that I was actually often worse off before I made any reductions at all. Many of those days at 450 MG were a 4 or 5/10 on the side effect scale.   I am not feeling anything extraordinarily due to my reduction on Day 6, though I want to tell myself I am, I'm really not.   I felt about this level (4/10 side effects) in the week prior to reducing.   If I'm going to feel 4/10 no matter what I do, better it be due to a taper, because sooner or later I'm confident that things will be more tolerable at a lower dose.   

 

I broke out the Sumatriptan and blood pressure meds today, but I've had to use those many days prior to reducing as well.   As I keep reminding myself, there is no comfort zone to return to for me.  I have intolerable side effects on every previous dose and time release/manufacturer combination I've tried, just some are less-bad than others.  Also, I had great irritability last night, and haven't had that tonight.  I've also only had mildly vivid dreams and nightmares, no notable visual weirdness, and anxiety has been pretty good, although I haven't been under stress.  Things are definitely being repaired in my noggin', and I think in a few days I should be out of the woods for the worst of the side effects, probably just some waves and windows and whatever.   

 

I'm keeping my eye on the prize at stabilizing on 375 mg, but I'm really looking forward to my next reduction in 3 weeks.  I think before I know it, my WD Normal state will be improved.   Even now the head pressure on a bad day isn't nearly as bad as on 450 mg, and I haven't had these headache hotspots moving around my brain in months.   Just imagining what it must feel like to have low head pressure on a 150 or 300mg dose sounds amazing to me.   My guess is that as I get to 300 and below, I will have an improved quality of life, and side effects will be much more background than foreground like they are these days.   I'm also considering next month to microtaper 5% and try that on for size.  I've been doing this for so long now, I just want it to be easier on me.   But for now, I will consider myself a huge success if I can get stable where I'm at!

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 I am here to cheer you on. You've got this.  Tapering is difficult but you seem to be managing it very well.  Congrats on making it down to 375mg.

 

I would love to see you try the 5% cut next time.  It may not do anything or it may make things a lot easier for you.  It would be great if you didn't have to go through this every time you made a cut.

 

Stay strong.

[j1290]

4 hours ago, RachelSusan said:

@j1290 I am here to cheer you on. You've got this.  

Thank you so much, @RachelSusan  That means a lot!   You said it, tapering is difficult.  If it were easy we wouldn't be here LOL  I think I'm starting to finally figure this all out, and taking the mystery out of the process makes it a lot less anxiety provoking.  

 

Last year I switched brands/time release/dosages before stabilizing, and when I finally switched back to the 450MG dose I've been on for years, but in an Instant Release formula instead of Extended Release, I didn't realize the profound side effects were normal, I wasn't going to feel  better.  I tried for 6 months or so and it just got worse, until I went back on the XR Extended Release, which had its own problems but was more tolerable.    

 

I'm on Day 7 of this reduction.  Morning had some good windows, and right now my brain feels activated/burning, head pressure, irritability, confusion, 4/10 side effects.   The good news, is that's normal!   I don't love it, but meh, this is what it feels like for me to be on Wellbutrin.    It's certainly far better than things were in June, and probably roughly equivalent to how I felt last year at this time or maybe a little improved.   I've reduced 17% or so, I can't expect more than a little improvement.  That's OK.  If I stay at 4/10 and don't get worse, then I'm doing this right, and I can reduce in 3 weeks or so.   I have faith that eventually things will feel better.   If I'm still at a 4/10 by the time I get to 50-66% of my original dose, then I'll be concerned, but for now, I'm going to do my best just to accept this as how it is today.  The only symptoms that will concern me is if I start going into gopher holes of depression or other wierdness, but the headaches, pressure, dizziness, cognitive problems, are all to be expected.    

 

I don't have to like it, I just have to stay the course.   There's really no place to go back to, as I feel roughly the same on the 450mg XL that I'd been on for a decade or more.  One day this will all be behind me.  Onward and upward!

[j1290]

Just a little 2pm update on Day 8 for my records.   Yesterday was rough, had to take migraine/blood pressure pills, today so far has been much better.  That headache hat I got off Amazon has been the best non-medicine treatment I've found.   My brain activity has been much less intense today, less burning and much more tolerable.   Still having the normal pressure but less headache, less brain lockup.  Having some emotions maybe up and down, little better brain clarity, I'd guess it's a window, and it's very welcome.   If my last reduction is any predictor, things may get a little easier with the brain pressure type side effects, and heavier with the mood swings for a bit.   

 

My speculation is that if I had over-reduced and needed to reinstate, that I would have felt it by now.  If I wait 3 weeks to get good and steady, I think I can do another reduction.   It's a bit complicated and slow, but I'm working with a compounding pharmacy to get 1/2 and 1/4 pills made so I can really fine tune my reductions without switching to liquid yet.   I really want to try smaller reductions so this is less disrupting to my life.   When I get to a very low dose I expect to use liquid to fine tune, but I'm still at 375 MG so I think that's off in the future sometime.   

 

If I can get stable at 375, considering that last year I had to reinstate and was afraid I'd never get off of this, it would be huge.   My next reduction in a month to 335, if I can do it, will be a giant morale boost to me, like I'm making real progress.  I dare to dream that my WD normal will have less headaches and pressure and things when I get to 335 or below.  A guy can dream, can't he?!?

 

If I can be a success, it's only due to the help on this website and from people here.   It's such an individual journey, nobody can do it all for me, but the encouragement to go slow, to backtrack to my last stable medicine when I needed to, using the withdrawal checklist to document the process, and to be very serious about medication times with timers and apps, not to underestimate what a difference manufacturers can make, all of that I got from here.   This will not be easy or brief, but so far I appear to be on the right path at least.  To be honest, I've paid many experts for their help, and received much better support from strangers I'll never meet on the internet.   Maybe I'm just sentimental because of the WD LOL but big hugs to you all!

 

[j1290]

Just a quick check in, Day 8 was pretty fantastic, with normal wellbutrin side effects that were reduced.  Felt great to get a break from the headaches and whatnot, and I didn't have to take any additional pills.   

Today on Day 9 I'm overly sensitive and emotional, which tracks with my last reduction as being right on time as part of this.   I swear I've read everything in this website, and then I find something new.  Just re-read the stabilizing thread, and picked up a zinger from @Skyler 

Quote

 Withdrawal symptoms include those which are 'physical' as well as neuroemotions, the latter experienced as emotional while they are actually physical in origin. 

 It's funny, but I never really looked at it like that before.  It makes a lot of sense.   What I think this means is that for me, after the initial physical symptoms of withdrawal that have gone on for 7 days that were all the headaches/activation etc, I'm moving on to the emotional phase of highs and lows that are just a symptom of my brain adjusting to the new dose.  If this drop behaves like my previous, that means about 2 more weeks of completely tolerable emotional movement while my brain does some tinkering, before I go back to how I felt a month ago before the drop, which would be more or less WD normal, or stable.   

 

Super glad I re-read that article.   I think it was in there some place where a poster said if you push the drops, go too fast, then sooner or later you hit 1mg too many and upset the applecart and crash and have to reinstate and hold.   When thinking to how I did this last year, it's very explainable now how everything got messed up.  I thought I could easily reduce the first 100mg or so since I was on the max dose of Wellbutrin, 450mg, so I rushed it big time and crashed, switched time releases a few times, and then switched to all IR before finally reinstating, all while being in heavy WD and panic.  I mistook the normal max dose IR side effects as being WD because I had tried to file pills a slight amount, and that's what my care team said was the cause or a very serious illness, not the time release of the wellbutrin.   After a final switch to a new generic due to insurance left me with flu like symptoms, I went back to the XL extended release, and then got to where I am today.   

 

I shouldn't have been so stubborn not to reinstate, and should have gone back to the XL faster, but I didn't know what I didn't know.   Not one person on my careteam suggested wellbutrin has any side effects at all, much less the headaches and pressure I was having.   I don't think that's unusual, though.  It's just the system.   

 

Alright, I really wanted to push and try to reduce again after 3 weeks between drops.  I still think I probably can, but that extra 4th week gives me time to observe to make sure that the emotional stuff is over with, that I'm back to feeling like I did before the drop the month prior.  

 

The great news is that if history is any predictor of the future, I'm well on my way to stabilizing on this new, lowered dose, and I should have a good week or two of lowered headache side effects, while I have emotional highs and lows.   I don't see anything out of the ordinary like I'm headed toward a crash or that this taper is impossible.  

 

It's all coming together.  My taper isn't impossible, I just didn't know what was going on.  I think it's temporary, but this week or two I get windows of feeling great.  Sure beats feeling trapped on a high dose with high side effects.   If I stay the course, I really can lower my dose and not go through another crash.  Maybe I'll even feel a little better along the way.   All I have to do is just accept that the process literally can't be rushed.  My brain is working on Union time LOL!

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 I slowed my taper way down and eventually I was able to make my cuts with very little symptoms. The symptoms from the cuts were so minor that it was able to work in the background of my life rather than being in the front. This is after a lot of me pushing it. Now I know I was on Zoloft which is different than Wellbutrin but I was hoping you would be able to get to this point as well.  I think your idea of a small cut is good. Perhaps you want to try it next time?  Maybe a very very very small cut just as a test to see if makes a difference?

 

Glad you getting through this with such a great attitude. I think it helps, a lot.

[j1290]

1 hour ago, RachelSusan said:

@j1290  The symptoms from the cuts were so minor that it was able to work in the background of my life rather than being in the front.

 

This is so brilliant!  I get so focused on the goal I didn't see how important the journey is.   Truth is, I could quarter pills to get a 5% reduction, or simply do one liquid dose at night and try 2% for example.   

 

You know what I just realized?  Half a pill is 10%.  If I make a liquid from that and get the measurement wrong or it doesn't work at all, the worst that could happen is I will reduce 10% instead of 2% and I'm no worse off than I would have been anyway.   

 

Alright, RachelSusan, I can give that a shot next month.  Let's try this!  What do you think of starting with 2 or 3% after I stabilize?  I think it's worth exploring.

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 As you say, it is worth exploring. I think the key is consistency.  As long as you do the same dose each and every time.   I think 2 or 3% would be great. If you still get the same amount of symptoms then the following time you reduce you can go back to your 10%, but if your symptoms are less...wouldn't that be fantastic?

[j1290]

DAY 9  Quick update for myself, yesterday was spectacular most of the day with no headaches, but the headaches came back 4/10 strong at night.  Today, DAY 10 I'm getting a small headache/pressure and I'm super emotional, like practically crying when I see a Hallmark TV commercial emotional.  I'm so much better educated about this stuff now I can't believe it.  Now that I have documented my last drop, I know that the "physical" part was the first week or so after reducing, and now is the emotional part that is just a symptom of the brain adjusting, perfectly normal and predictable.   No big deal.   I start a new job in 10 days, which will be day 20 of my reduction, so according to my history I should be in pretty good shape by then, finishing up adjusting to the new dosage.   Somewhere around day 22-24 or so I should be back to WD Normal, which for me is the usual head pressure and headaches and whatnot.  

 

I'm so satisfied with how my taper is being predictable, after a year of not knowing what was happening.   So far, no signs of needing to reenstate, everything is normal and tolerable.  Maybe that'll change, but not today.  Stabilizing at 375 is a huge deal for me, it'll mean I'm really on the right path, finally.  

 

@RachelSusan I just ordered 100mg IR from the same Apotex manufacturer.  I will use those to make the liquid solution so I don't have to math, and I think that will give me the best chance of success.  If I weren't working I probably would try to do 10% because it really is proving to be survivable (not pleasant) and hopefully recover in 3-4 weeks, but I'll still be learning the new job and much better to make it easier on myself if I can.  Only one way to know how I will react.  

Less symptoms would be really amazing.   Appreciate the suggestion, RachelSusan!  This time next month we should know how it goes!

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 You probably already know this, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention it , just in case. When you change the form of medication (such as a tablet to liquid) there can be some problems. If you are changing only a small percentage over to liquid the problems might be nonexistent, or minimal. If it is a larger amount below is the formula that is suggested on our site here.  In fact I copied it from ChessieCat's, and I am including a link to that post. I've also posted the formula below. You are doing so well. I think one of reasons is how logical you are in your approach to tapering. Good for you.

 

To do a cross over you would take the following combinations for 3 to 7 days or longer if needed:

 

3/4 old form of drug (eg tablet) + 1/4 new form of drug (eg liquid)

 

1/2 + 1/2

 

1/4 + 3/4

 

Sometimes it is difficult to get the doses you need to do the cross over but you might be able to do:

 

2/3 old form + 1/3 new form

 

1/2 + 1/2

 

1/3 + 2/3

 

[j1290]

@RachelSusan Much appreciated!  I actually didn't know there was a chart like that at all!  One day when I do my success story I intend to compile all the data that I used to figure out my path to success, and I'll include that chart!

 

Most of my crossovers this year I didn't do gradually, and they were ruff.   I was looking for something like this chart, because I didn't know if there was any suggested method for switching over to part liquid.   This is going to be a great way to see how I tolerate it within very safe margins.  After I complete 4 weeks on this current reduction, I'm going to switch to 10% liquid and hold to see how I do.   I think I have enough data now to judge what side effects are normal and what are due to cross over or tapering so I'll know when I'm stable or WD Normal.  I *think* the worst thing that could happen is I feel like I'm doing a 10% reduction, which isn't the end of the world.  If tapering off the 10% liquid goes well, then I have lots of options and maybe I can gradually replace one pill with liquid instead of splitting it so I can be very precise, who knows?   Only one way to find out!

 

Thank you again, RachelSusan, for your encouragement to go slow and safe!  Left to my own devices, I always tumble down the AD mountain rather than go smoothly haha.  

 

Day 11  I'm a little emotional, a little head stuff going on, but overall I'm on a window, 2/10 side effects.   I've been drinking a lot of Gatorade and soon Liquid IV on the advice of my doctor and others taking Wellbutrin for headache alieviation.  I just never took the suggestion seriously before, but I'm going to drink a 32 oz bottle at my morning and evening dose and see if it has any effect.    Worth a shot.  

 

Most importantly, nothing mysterious whatsoever is going on.  These daily WD checklists have made such a difference.  I'm just looking at around Day 11 of my last reduction and sure enough, side effects were very similar at that time as well.   After a year of confusion and fear of the unknown, it's a huge relief to see predictable trends.  Now that I understand more, I realize the emotional stuff is just this phase of recovery and I'm right on track.  Within a few weeks I will have recovered and be back to WD Normal, but I'll be at 17% lower than I started a few months ago.  Fantastic!   I've never in my life done such a good job with my meds, taking them at the same time and having a record of each dose so I'm certain I did it, etc.  Takes so much of the anxiety out of the whole thing.  I had so many hassles with forgetting if I took a med or taking at the wrong time, I should have done it long ago.  

 

I don't know how I manage to get through this, but some how I am enough.  Really looking forward to seeing how the next reduction at 3% goes.  Secretly I hope it will allow me to maintain 10% reduction per month with easier side effects, but I wonder how it will all work.  Like all this tapering business, ultimately I think I just have to try it out and see.  I should know this time next month!

 

 

[j1290]

Day 12 I'm in the sweet spot of my taper right now, in a window where I don't have many 'physical' side effects, it's vivid dreams and nightmares and anxiety and paranoia in the morning, with some physical stuff beginning in the evening.   I woke up in the middle of the night and my brain was so activated during the dream, it was really weird.  Sleeping with the light on helps enormously LOL.  

That said, it's my job not to worry too much about this stuff.  It's perfectly normal, it's predictable, it will pass.  I'll make a note of it, and not build it up into more than it is.  

 

I'm really enjoying these windows, if that's what it is, where I have less physical symptoms and an elevated creativity and clearer thoughts.  

 

I'm so lucky to have a record of my last reduction, and to see similar results this reduction that are tolerable and predictable.  I'm a broken record but that's such a relief to not be so confused.  So far, I think I'm right on track.  Pshew I'm proving to need every bit of a 3-4 week hold after a reduction, and to think I wanted to reduce after only a week or so!   Of course I would be headed for a crash if I dropped like that.   In retrospect it seems sillly that I didn't figure out that the side effects I was having at 450 mg for 6+ months were normal and I was expecting if I waited for it to smooth out and feel like I did on the XL.  The XL and IR are  different manufacturers and time release, why on earth would they feel the same?!?  20/20 hindsite.   

 

So far so good.  I kinda can't believe I've made it to where I am, considering just a few months ago I was having very serious difficulties because of side effects of the IR.   haha I guess I still am, actually, but I'm moving in the right direction now and in a controlled manner, with predictable bumps in the road.  That's  a very different situation. 

[RachelSusan]

@j1290

20 hours ago, j1290 said:

Left to my own devices, I always tumble down the AD mountain rather than go smoothly haha.  

That is exactly what I did, I tumbled down the mountain. No skiing down for me. I hit every single bump on that hill.  I did everything one should not do. Once I figured it out though, it got a lot easier.  You are making much better choices than I ever did.

 

You are doing great.

[j1290]

14 minutes ago, RachelSusan said:

I did everything one should not do. Once I figured it out though, it got a lot easier. 

@RachelSusan

Story of my life right here LOL!

[j1290]

Day 13  3/10 side effects weird head stuff/pressure/lockup/headaches, vivid dreams, odd emotional stuff.  All perfectly normal, all match my last reduction more or less, and just part of a taper.   Took half a prescribed blood pressure med last night to see if that might help.  I guess it helped a little, and when I checked BP this morning it dropped 10 points to really amazing numbers, which is a nice bonus LOL   

 

I'm on the downside of this taper, over half way through, which is fantastic.   The funny thing is, in some ways I feel better during WD because I have less head pressure/headaches.   It's so funny, these symptoms, but my experience matches exactly what I've read about the brain healing one section at a time and moving from one to the other.  

 

I'll know I'm getting back to WD Normal around 4 weeks when the headaches and things get to levels I need to take sumatriptan etc.  It's going to be unbelievable one day when I don't have this stuff going on, it will all be worth it.   My flexible plan is to switch to 10% liquid after week 4 of this drop, give it around 4-7ish days to see how I tolerate it, then try a 3% reduction and see what happens.   An additional factor is I will be using a 100mg tablet of IR by the same manufacturer for easier math.  If life were fair, it shouldn't be a factor since I'm not changing brands or time release, but only one way to find out.   

 

I'm still dreaming that this brain pressure/fog/headache stuff will be less intense the more I reduce, and I really believe it will.  I haven't had anything to distract me from side effects the last few days, will be going back to work next week so in that regard it will be maybe better, time will go by.   Certainly I feel much better than I did in June when I was in real situation.  I don't love this process, but I am down by 17%, which I thought maybe would never happen, and if the next reduction goes well I could be down by around 25%, which is a great start.   I can't hurry the process, but maybe with liquid micro tapering it will be a little easier.  

[ChessieCat]

8 hours ago, j1290 said:

My flexible plan is to switch to 10% liquid after week 4 of this drop, give it around 4-7ish days to see how I tolerate it, then try a 3% reduction and see what happens.   An additional factor is I will be using a 100mg tablet of IR by the same manufacturer for easier math.  If life were fair, it shouldn't be a factor since I'm not changing brands or time release, but only one way to find out. 

 

cross-over-changing-form-eg-tablet-to-liquid-of-drug-or-changing-brand-of-same-drug

[j1290]

23 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

cross-over-changing-form-eg-tablet-to-liquid-of-drug-or-changing-brand-of-same-drug

Thanks, ChessieCat!   You have a point.  Basically I'm replacing half a pill with liquid.  I could try replacing just 1/4 of it with liquid, giving it a few days, then swap the other 1/4 and maybe that will be smoother.  Might be extra safe to do that since this is my first attempt to do this in a proper way.  That 1/2 pill represents 10% of my overall dose, so I'm not super worried about it, but I never got hurt by a little caution.  If Wellbutrin is anything like Effexor was, it's going to be really important to do a microtaper farther down the line, so experience with liquid will be beneficial.  

 

DAY 14  Little vivid sensations, emotional, vivid dreams, little hungover feeling.  I'm just over it today.  I know I'm right on pace, it's 2 weeks since the last reduction, and I'm worn out.   I know things will get WD Normal in a week or so, which isn't so great either LOL but there it is.   I'm down to 5 pills/day instead of 6 and no unusual events, so if the past will predict the future, things will even out next week, and that 4th week I'll be able to relax a little in the emotions department while my body consolidates the gains.

[Faure]

Hello, sounds like you really are getting to grips with your taper - well done! Able to see patterns and know it all matches what happened last time. I’m just popping in to say good luck with the new job and while I’m not at all up to speed on you and your life I wonder if it’s worth considering not starting the next round of tapering till you’re settled into the job. New jobs cause stress (I teach and after every summer break I get stressed and need a little hold till I steady up, never mind if I was starting a new job!). I realise you get adverse effects from being on the medication though and it may be better for you to just taper on, but do take the new job into account when deciding ☺️

[j1290]

@Faure Hi there, thanks so much for taking the time to look at my over-wordy blog LOL  I'm trying to document this taper on the daily so I can refer back to it as a bit of a guide of what to expect on the next one.  

 

I appreciate your good advice!  I agree with you 100%, I will definitely figure in the new job with my tapering.  Any changes will definitely have to be on a Thursday or Friday so I'll have a few days on the weekend to recover.   My plan is to switch 10% of my dose to liquid, in two steps, and use that to micro taper approx. 3% per week or so after I stabilize.  Seems like it should make things a little easier, but only one way to find out.   

 

DAY 15  Another day, another dollar.  Went in to train at the new job, then had to run and do some work at the old job, where my brain gave me a good lockup and I started having a lot of frustration.  It all tracks with my last taper, the head pressure and brain activity, emotions, moving headaches, etc.  Nothing unusual.  It's annoying, it's normal, and it just is.  The less energy I give to obsessing over things I can't change, the better off I am.  I expect more windows and waves for the next week, but I should be pretty close to WD Normal this time next week, which should mean less of the emotions and brain activation, more of the pressure and headaches.   I'm interested to see where that'll fall on a scale of 1-10 symptom wise, considering I'm down 17% from my peak.   I don't have my hopes up that I'll feel significantly better.   I'm at 375mg right now down from 450.  I don't really expect noticeable difference till I get down to 300, or maybe even 150.   My temple pressure and dizziness are kicking in to a 4/10, which matches previous evenings, so nothing surprising.   As long as I don't have flu like symptoms, zaps, spasms, or anything way out of the ordinary in intensity, I think I'm doing alright.  Really looking forward to switching to 5% liquid as well, to see how that goes.  My best guess is I'll get a couple - three days of physical symptoms like headaches and burning sensations, with minimal emotional stuff.

 

Before you know it, I'll be down by 1/3rd, down to 4 pills a day instead of 6.  I'll really be the hero of my own life if I can do that.   

[RachelSusan]

@j1290 It sounds like you have everything under control. Good thinking. Would you consider tapering 3% every month or every few weeks, rather than once week? Just for a month or two and then if all goes well you can increase the amount you taper? The goal would be to see if you can do a taper with no symptoms. Once you know you can then certainly you could do more frequent cuts.  Wouldn't it be great if you could find a way to taper with absolutely no symptoms? That may or may not be possible but maybe it's worth a month or two of your time to find out? I know you also have reasons for wanting to be off more quickly so my suggestion may not appeal to you. It was just a thought I had.  Over all you are doing great. I am very impressed.

[j1290]

@RachelSusan  Your kind thoughts are always very welcome!!  You're right, of course, not having any side effects would be amazing, and possibly the best way to go.  I'm just in such a pickle with this stuff, holding has problems and reducing has different ones.  I'm going to play it by ear, of course, I'm just speculating with the liquid stuff because I have never really tried it properly before.   I will give that first reduction some extra attention to be safe, great idea!

 

DAY 16

Today was another day settling into the new job, and naturally side effects presented themselves as that hung-over feeling and head pressure.   Not a great impression on the new workmates unfortunately but these are the cards I'm dealt.   I'd like to be more social, but I have to keep in mind this is just a temporary job for a few months, and to thine own self be true, I've got to take care of my health, which in my case is reducing these pills.  My head is still recovering, with hungover feeling and head pressure, headaches, intense brain stuff.   Whatevs, day is over and I made it through.  

[j1290]

DAY 17  

I went to two different jobs plus a meetup luncheon, which for this guy is a lot of public exposure.   Long story short, 3/10 brainlock/hungover feeling/head stuff, or in other words, pretty normal, and actually better than where I was on the last drop.  No Tylenol/BloodPressure med necessary today, some vivid dreams but not near as bad as last month.   

 

I repeat myself, but after a year of flailing, I feel like the last 4 months I've started getting it right.   I think as long as I continue to take everything at the right time, I'll be pretty steady at AD Normal in a couple weeks.  Glad I listened to good advice and stuck the last taper out for 4 weeks, as I clearly need every bit of that time to adjust.  Its been a slog, but I got here.  I kinda can't believe it.   Looking forward to getting down to 335 next month!

[j1290]

DAY 18

Getting headaches, brainlock, dizzy, etc etc normal stuff.  Heavy paranoia/anxiety in the morning.  Took half a blood pressure pill and took a nap guess there's a reason you take those at night.   Overall basically a duplicate of this time in my last reduction, which is all I can ask.  If things track like last time, this is the part where I make the emotional symptom/physical symptom crossover again and that's when I'm about back to WD Normal.   Right now I'm having some mental clarity and less fog, which will change but it's nice while I have it.   Really excited about slowly switching to 10% liquid and reducing in a few weeks.