Tapering2023: Medication or withdrawal?

[LostInCanada]

@Tapering2023 I have a fish allergy so I use algae oil. Just use whatever has the highest EPA/DHA etc. and best quality you can find.

I don't know much about adaptogens but feel free to use the search icon on here to see what others are doing. I cook alot with them and drink tea with them but I don't know more than that.

[Tapering2023]

Thanks. 

 

You said kindling only comes into effect mainly with people who cold turkey and don’t get back in within 90 days correct?

 

going back and forth with do I updose or not. 
 

.683 I’ve been at for 67 days. 
 

been having bad withdrawal since August 19th and was at .672 then if I remember correctly. 
 

I can’t remember if the akathisia I started having was from the updose or not. I also did NAD+ around that time too.
 

 

[Tapering2023]

Can someone give me some more info on intrusive thoughts as a symptom? Debating whether I should also see a harm OCD specialist on top of my withdrawal coach to learn better ways of coping. @Emonda @LostInCanada

 

Symptoms are fears around everything, things feeling like they take 10x the effort to get started, constant intrusive thoughts about self harm, what people think of me, not being able to work, not ever healing, just all catastrophic thoughts nonstop. 

 

I have not updosed and am staying where I am at.

 

Lately I am having groin pains and I believe this is also psychosomatic due to repressed anger around this entire situation stealing my life from me and not being able to live a normal life

[Tapering2023]

Hey guys. 
 

Do you know of any success stories with these harm thoughts? Ones where people experienced them on a careful taper? I’m still on the meds and have done a very careful taper over 6 years and I’m still experiencing withdrawal for almost 5 months. Any hope or common scenarios would be extremely helpful.

 

still at .683. Terrified of updosing for a potential adverse reaction. 
 

 

[Onmyway]

Hi @Tapering2023, this will pass eventually. I like Michael Greenberg's work on OCD, especially the poor O and rumination. Have you had a look. 

It may help to work with a specialist in OCD. The more help you get, the better. 

One of the things that helps with anxiety (and OCD is an anxiety disorder) is just facing the thoughts/feelings and staying with them. They slowly dissipate when you do that. 

You might want to have a look at Claire Weeke's books/youtube audios. 

On a different note: can you pls update your signature with the dates themselves? It will help us advise you better. 

 

Hope things ease up a bit soon. 

OMW

[Tapering2023]

@Onmyway are you saying that therapy is a good idea? I thought the intrusive thoughts were chemically induced and no matter what you do you’re going to have them because you’re in withdrawal. 
 

ocd is exposure therapy which also heightens stress which can with withdrawal worse I thought. 
 

also I don’t have the mental energy to even recall all the tapers I’ve done for the signature honestly.

[Onmyway]

@Tapering2023 I didn't advise therapy,  just sent you some resources that might help. 

 

Regarding the signature, the quality of help you get will depend on the signature. I'll assume you've been holding 3 months now based on the signature even if you ask me in 5 months.

Edited January 11 by Onmyway

[Tapering2023]

Thanks. If I am having severe withdrawal, can I stabilize while on the medication? I keep having these fears that I’m not going to stabilize and that being on the medication while in withdrawal means I’m not healing. 
 

Maybe this is a symptom? 
 

people do heal from withdrawal while on the medication still right? 
 

 

[Onmyway]

yes, you will heal. This break allows you to stabilize so that you can continue tapering eventually. 

OMW

[Tapering2023]

Thank you man. I’m just honestly terrified. This is by far the hardest time of my life right now. Each day is absolute hell. I hope I stabilize soon. 

[Tapering2023]

@Onmyway I did an updose 2 months ago, and nothing has changed. I haven’t seen any improvements. 
 

Would another updose be safe? 
 

my symptoms are so bad I don’t see how they could get any worse, outside of more insomnia really. 

[Tapering2023]

 

 

.6ml was the syringe dosage I was last stable, which comes out to around .825 on the weighing scale. 

 

I went to the weighing scale though for the purpose of being more accurate.

 

I am not sure why I started taking .672mg on the weighing scale as that was a lot lower… even lower than .55ml with the syringe.  

 

I tried updosing 2 months ago from .672 to .683, and nothing happened.

 

I know that this is severe and I can barely function though so the only thing I know to try is do another updose from .683 to .695 and hold for 7-10 days. 
 

question, if I do this, and don’t see improvements, is another updose after that okay? 
 

I know the nervous system wants stabilization so I tried staying on the .683 but my symptoms have not improved. 

[Onmyway]

Hi @Tapertrauma, 

I really can't keep track of doses in texts - we are working with lots of people and don't have the capacity to go and check out all message of every single person when we interact. Can you please try your best to get the dates on which you made changes in the last year in your signature. I wouldn't risk giving advice otherwise. 

OMW

[Tapering2023]

@Onmyway I don’t know how to update it. 
 

also I can’t give a full breakdown of the last year perfectly I’ll try. 

[Tapering2023]

@Onmyway I’m doing an updose tonight.

 

I’ve tried holding for over 2 months at .683 and symptoms aren’t getting better.

 

I don’t have a lot of stressors at all either right now. No alcohol, caffeine and I eat healthy and workout safely. Walks, sun, literally everything. 
 

so I’m doing an updose and seeing if some improvements come in 7-10 days. 
 

my question is this… if I don’t see improvements, does it make sense to do another small updose? Or would waiting be best. 
 

im on .683 and the last dose I felt stable on was around .825.
 

I’ve had symptoms for 5 months total. little to no improvements outside sleep.

 

 

[Tapering2023]

I have this belief that even if I do therapy and practice techniques for the harm thoughts and SI that it won’t work because it’s biologically induced from withdrawal. 
 

I wish I could believe that I do have power to overcome the thoughts and lessen them with the right techniques. 
 

@Onmyway

[Onmyway]

Hi @Tapering2023 this should give you the instructions: 

 

[Tapering2023]

I’m the worst I’ve ever been. I didn’t do the updose yet. Is there anything I can do to mitigate symptoms. I’m at the end of the line right now guys. Anything at all to stop the thoughts? 

[LostInCanada]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:37 AM, Tapering2023 said:

 

I am not sure why I started taking .672mg on the weighing scale as that was a lot lower… even lower than .55ml with the syringe.  

It looks like you dropped too much and this put you in WD. The only way to mitigate and help your body with the change is updosing slowly. Waiting a couple weeks between an updose is necessary to see if you are having lessening symptoms. I made a recommendation of a small updose previously. 

As was mentioned by Emonda, he just uses the same syringe(manufacturer) for accurate and consistent dosing. It keeps it simple and accurate.

[Tapering2023]

I just read an article on inner compass initiative that said updosing after a month could do more harm than good. It’s been 5 months since .672 and 2 months since .683. I don’t see any improvements yet so I guess that’s my only option. Also you’re saying to see how I feel in 7-10 days or two weeks and then hold for 2 weeks before trying another potential updose? @LostInCanada

[LostInCanada]

25 minutes ago, Tapering2023 said:

you’re saying to see how I feel in 7-10 days or two weeks and then hold for 2 weeks before trying another potential updose?

Yes. In the end the decision is yours. Though you didn't go cold turkey, your body is struggling to deal with this drop since August. And since you have always had the drug in your system, there should not be a kindling reaction if done slowly and just a small increase to start. 

I do recommend just sticking to the syringe for measuring but again your decision. 

Also try to update your signature, even with the date of previous updose and if you updose again. It helps everyone to be able to help you. 👍Click account -account settings -settings area -signature 

[Tapering2023]

Okay. So essentially I would be trying .695 for a month, then trying .715 or something like that for another month. Thanks on the kindling info. 

[LostInCanada]

Yes, for the first updose then we will go from there. Let's hope this small updose does the trick.

[Tapering2023]

@LostInCanadayea. Why wait a full month instead of 2 weeks if symptoms don’t subside? 

[LostInCanada]

I think it's personal preference and how you are feeling.

[Tapering2023]

@LostInCanada okay so technically I can updose after 2 weeks if I feel the need to. 

[LostInCanada]

Yes. Also good job on your signature. Thank you.

[Tapering2023]

You’re welcome. Thanks. I hope to God I have a lessening in these thoughts. Even if it’s just half a day I can get of relief from them. My whole body jerks and shakes in fear because of them now and they’re pretty much nonstop. 
 

I know .825 was around where I was most stabilized… you’re saying .695 is still the best dose to updose to? @LostInCanada I’m just in a lot of pain all day and getting to .825 with waiting every 2 weeks would take months. 
 

 

[LostInCanada]

@Tapering2023 it has been numerous months since you have been destabilized. During that time your body has been trying to adjust. To go back immediately to that higher dose would affect your body negatively as well. There is a sweet spot some where between the dose before WD and now. We just don't know how much your body has adapted to this lower dose. Going too fast isn't good but I definitely understand you want resolution sooner than later. So sorry you are dealing with this. 

[Tapering2023]

@LostInCanada okay that makes sense. Stabilization can happen at a dosage lower than the .825 I was last stable at because the nervous system has been fighting to adjust to the .672 and .683. 

[littlebird]

1 hour ago, Tapering2023 said:

I hope to God I have a lessening in these thoughts. Even if it’s just half a day I can get of relief from them. My whole body jerks and shakes in fear because of them now and they’re pretty much nonstop. 

I hope they ease soon! Have you found any relief? I've found weighted blankets and taking a bath can help. When I can get access to a hot tub and just float in hot water for a bit it seems to calm my nervous system down when my thoughts get it all worked up.

 

How's your support system while tapering? 

 

On 1/13/2024 at 4:29 PM, Tapering2023 said:

I have this belief that even if I do therapy and practice techniques for the harm thoughts and SI that it won’t work because it’s biologically induced from withdrawal. 

This makes sense, I've had the same belief. Also, there are coping skills that can be learned that do help - if nothing else, it helps to just talk about it and get it out.

 

7 hours ago, Tapering2023 said:

I’m the worst I’ve ever been. I didn’t do the updose yet. Is there anything I can do to mitigate symptoms. I’m at the end of the line right now guys. Anything at all to stop the thoughts? 

Have you ever called a warmline or a hotline? You gotta find something if you're at the end of the line, my man. I can attest that therapy absolutely helps with all the bs that tapering/med changes bring up - it's been a godsend to find a good therapist. I've also found help in support groups. If you find yourself in any sort of "danger to self or others" territory, please hang on and reach out to get some help.

 

This **** ain't easy by a long shot, these meds put us through hell. Solidarity, my friend! This isn't forever - every single storm runs out of rain sooner or later.

[LostInCanada]

34 minutes ago, littlebird said:

This isn't forever - every single storm runs out of rain sooner or later.

Love this...good motto to remember 

[Onmyway]

@Tapering2023, have you seen this link below? 

I would also say that the fact that these difficult thoughts and feelings are caused by withdrawal absolutely doesn't mean that you can't do anything about them. The coping mechanisms still work - try anything that works - distraction, magnesium, AAF, therapy, CBT on your own, music, walking, comedy, pet hugs - whatever helps YOU. 

 

Think of these as a valve that you can open to let the water drain out. Sure, the valve was designed to let the kitchen faucet water drain out but it doesn't mean that when the house is flooded by monsoon rains it won't work. It will work. It may not be fully sufficient but you don't need perfect now, you need relief in whatever form, enough to help you trust that this is temporary.

 

 

[Tapering2023]

@Onmyway thanks for sharing! Do you have a recommendation for magnesium? I take one but am curious about others. 
 

The post talked about seeing symptoms as the effects of a brain healing from a nerve injury. I like this. 
 

it makes me wonder about how an updose would affect the healing process though. 
 

I was feeling hopeful with the updose… and hope it doesn’t rock the boat more.
 

is there a post that explains how an updose would help balance out or mitigate symptoms? 
 

I am going from .683 to .695. 

[LostInCanada]

Just now, Tapering2023 said:

 

it makes me wonder about how an updose would affect the healing process though

I can only see it helping from the evidence how a reinstatement helps healing as opposed to sticking with cold turkey. 

[Tapering2023]

@LostInCanada yea well in my case I guess it was just too fast of drops. I’m still on .683. Cool. I’ll still do the .695 then.