☼ moodyblues78: The fight is on (Zoloft/Diazepam)

[moodyblues78]

Wouldn`t taking it every day result in benzo addiction and wd too?

 

This week I have taken it twice. And this has been a very bad week.

 

My lowest effective dose is 5mg.

[wulfgar]

It probably will. If you are thinking of taking it every day you might try a lower dose than 5 mg. The long half life makes it stack up so 2.5 mg or even less daily will give you a blood serum equal to 5 mg single dose. I haven't calculated this more exactly for diazepam.

[moodyblues78]

Ok.

 

I will have to think about that seriously.

 

If things go much worse, daily diazepam may the only option. Hope not.

 

I`m beginning to see a pattern. I take my daily poison around 8-9. I have bad anxiety from 9-10. Then it gets easier. Then it gets much worse around 13-14 and stays that way until 21-22. Is this common?

[Meimeiquest]

Do you think it would help to take half every 12 hours? Brainstorming, not advising. We are all different, but I do much better on tiny, divided doses.

[moodyblues78]

Are you talking about benzo or zoloft?

[Meimeiquest]

Both, if you end up staying on both. If you change Zoloft, you'd have to do it a little at a time. Like take half two hours after the first half, then gradually extend the time between. But Inreally don't know if that would be best for you.

[moodyblues78]

I have been thinking about taking zoloft 2 times a day since it has got a short half life. At the moment I´m too scared to experiment.

 

I had to go to a childrens birthday party today. The unbearable noise caused a lot of anxiety and I had to leave the table. I`m very sensitive to sounds. I found a peaceful place in the livingroom and stayed there until we left. Maybe it was not wise to go to the party but I`m glad that kids had fun.   

 

New symptoms. Two times at the party when I got up from the sofa, I felt very dizzy and a lot of head pressure. Maybe it was because I had forgotten to take my fish oil. 

[Meimeiquest]

Oh, noise...it's awful, isn't it! I startle and yelp to sudden noises, and if it continues, I WILL go off on someone I love. But I do not have the head thing...but so remember it! Hang in there, you are a good dad!

[moodyblues78]

Good day everybody.

 

Last night was better than the previous one. Anxiety did not wake me up but it bushed me off the bed. It`s slowly fading away now. Tinnitus was probably at it`s best this year. Hopefully that means my cns is getting better.

 

I cried again. This time of joy. I felt how much I love my children. I had a strong positive feeling. Thank God. Finally! For a breaf moment life was good and worth all the suffering.

 

I`m still using my own liquid zoloft. Now I`m going to keep it in the dark.

 

Hard to believe it`s February already. 

[EternalOptimist]

Congrats MB!

[moodyblues78]

Well the rest of the day has once again the worst of my life. 

 

I`ll go to see a doctor tomorrow. Pray for me.

[wulfgar]

Good luck! Hope you get an understanding and wise one!

[bubble]

I've been following your posts: things have been changing so abruptly! on Friday I felt for you, Saturday was a birthday party with mixed feelings, then that beautiful surge of love and then horror again. (Mine weekend was similar just on a milder scale)

 

Rhi once told me that each wave feels like the worst ever. Also, I read that these exchanges of windows and waves are a sign that our CNS is working hard to get into a balance.

 

What kind of doctor are you seeing tomorrow?

 

best of luck with everything (and longer windows...) we are always here for each others

[moodyblues78]

After yesterdays panic I understood that doctors can not help me. They will just try to put me on more meds.

 

So I`m still fighting. I have bad obsessive thinking going on about the withdrawal. I need to get rid of that. I`m back to work now and bearly coping but here I am.

[bubble]

indeed,there is nothing doctors can do for us except throw in more meds which will in the long run make things even worse.

 

We can only be patient with our symptoms and focus on surviving one moment after the other.

 

I was curious about something called seriphos for helping with anxiety that some members mention...

 

You are heroic

[moodyblues78]

I`d like to ask this again.

 

I am able to sleep. My evenings tend to be better.

 

Anxiety starts to build up from the morning after I take my zoloft. The absolute worst part of the day is around 6hrs after taking the drug. That when it is at it`s peak in my body. 

 

Can this be adverse reaction to the drug?

 

Huge anxiety and depression.

Constantly sweating

Hands shaking

Cannot be still.

etc.

 

Alto?

[bubble]

sorry for jumping in here.

 

I was reading ideas people brainstormed for you and think one of them was that you might try to divide zoloft into 2 doses. maybe that's a kind of interdose withdrawal if Zoloft has a short half-life?

 

But I understand the reluctance to change anything about the drug for fear it will make things only worse...

[moodyblues78]

If it was that shouldn`t the symptoms be worse when the drug levels in the blood are the lowest?

 

My symptoms start when I take the drug.

[bubble]

This is really a question for Alto...

 

she often mentions that some symptoms indicate the drug is too activating, so if your symptoms peak when the drugs peaks in blood, it could be that....

 

we have to wait for Alto and she usually checks on us in the evening our time...

[Altostrata]

Yes, mb, it does sound like you're having an adverse reaction to Zoloft. Your current dosage is too activating.

[bubble]

Alto is so busy with all of us here and trying to address concerns of as many as possible that she sometimes comes of sounding like the oracle of Delphi

 

the question is what to do now since it's too activating but reducing it would conflict with the principle of stability...

[EternalOptimist]

indeed,there is nothing doctors can do for us except throw in more meds which will in the long run make things even worse.

We can only be patient with our symptoms and focus on surviving one moment after the other.

I was curious about something called seriphos for helping with anxiety that some members mention...

You are heroic

Bubble, I just saw your comment about seriphos. I know of a woman who is on meds and swears by seriphos ESP when under stress.

She is a nurse and studies up on that which has takes. She increases the dosage of seriphos considerably and, for her, gets sig positive relief.

[bubble]

found the post on seriphos:

 

http://survivinganti...rx-and-natural/

[moodyblues78]

I`m doing better than yesterday. It has not been easy but more bearable.

 

I took only 6mg in the morning. I will take more once I get back home but I`ve got no idea how much. Any suggestions?

 

I remember having some fear and anxiety symptoms while being at 100mg too. That is why I started tapering. Maybe this drug never was good for me.

[wulfgar]

Found a ref to success with splitting doses to alleviate side effects.

 

http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/split/Splitting-doses-to-diminis.html

 

I was very close to try this when on higher dose of mirtazapine due to side effects, but decided not to as mirtazapine gives a big dip in cortisol and adrenaline when concentration is high and that helps with sleep.

 

If zoloft does not come with specific extra help due to concentration spike i would definitely think taking it 12 hours apart would be better. The main reason doctors prescribe once a day regiments is patient compliance. They have a statistically significant rise in people missing doses and discontinuing drugs because they think its to much of a bother to take it twice a day. Thats also why the XR (extended release) variants is appearing. A more even blood serum level is better. The doctors so much want you to take their drugs that they prefer you to have a roller coaster blood level than to risk a patient stoping the meds !!

 

If Changing to take it twice a day, bid for short, you might want to think of this as a "taper step" in that you need to stabilize a bit.

 

I don't want to recommend something that would make you feel worse, and i really don't know how a change like this will make you feel, but it is food for thought for sure!

[wulfgar]

I haven't done the math but have a gut feeling that splitting the same dose two times over a day gives the same average blood serum, with less spikes and less dips. There is a for me tricky integral involved or i can do a excel numerical method to find out if you like?

[moodyblues78]

I haven't done the math but have a gut feeling that splitting the same dose two times over a day gives the same average blood serum, with less spikes and less dips. There is a for me tricky integral involved or i can do a excel numerical method to find out if you like?

 

Thanks my friend. That was very interesting to read.

 

I`m definitely going to take 2 doses per day. Maybe even 3 later.

 

Still trying to figure out how much to take later today. The peak will be around midnight so I don`t want too much of this poison in my blood at that hour. If you feel like playing with excel, I`m more than grateful

[wulfgar]

I will create a "simulation" on zoloft later today then for you. The pharmacokinetics is a bit tricky though. "when taken orally, achieving its maximal concentration in the plasma 4–6 hours after ingestion." This makes for a delayed ramp up. As you now use a liquid i think i will shorten this ramp up by an hour at least. When do you feel that you get the most sx after taking it? 2 hours? 3? I will use the half life of 26 hours. I do the calculation for 11 mg and an 12 hour split of 5.5 mgs. ok?

 

Interesting fact: Also found out that blood serum concentration is 1.5 times higher in women for same dose. This of course should imply that doctors should prescribe less a dose for women, and i think they do not, and instead messes them up even more than us guys.

[moodyblues78]

That 4-6hrs applies for me. That is the worst part.

 

Your calculation sounds good.

 

It would be interesting to know if the half-life is different when making your own liquid. Are the factors in the blood that affect it? Weight? Age?

 

PS. I`m doing much better than yesterday at the moment.

[bubble]

so happy for you moodyB!!!!

 

and Wulfgar,wow:  you are a genious!!!

[wulfgar]

Ok, heres the result of the "svalbard" jury:

Two doses a day, 2 x 5.5 mg at 8.00 and 20.00 resulted in

Average blood serum: 17,30

Max 18,96

Min 15,26

 

One dose 11 mg at 20.00 resulted in

Average blood serum: 17,31

Max 21,90

Min 12,85

 

Here are the diagrams:

[wulfgar]

The blood serum calculated is the one dose equivalence. What amount of zoloft a person who not previously have taken zoloft must take in order to reach the same blood level. So, taking 11 mg of zoloft once a day will give you an accumulated maximum blood level same as a single dose of 21.9 mg . There is no easy way for me to calculate actual mmol/l blood serum concentration but i think my calculations is good enough.

 

The difference between liquid and a pill is probably the time it takes for the stomach acid to dissolve the tablet. Put a tablet in something acidic, stir gently every 5 minutes, and clock it. I would think 30 minutes.

 

Taking a tablet with food will probably slow the uptake time more but would not change the max/min/avg much.

[moodyblues78]

Thanks Wulfgar! This is becoming a very scientific thread. 

 

Clearly twice a day is easier for the body.

 

Today has had it`s ups and downs but over all things have been better than in a long time. 

[wulfgar]

You are welcome, MB! In regards to half-life, liver size and liver status should be the primary factor here. Us guys have a larger liver and therefore a quicker half life.

[Altostrata]

Alto is so busy with all of us here and trying to address concerns of as many as possible that she sometimes comes of sounding like the oracle of Delphi

 

the question is what to do now since it's too activating but reducing it would conflict with the principle of stability...

LOL.

 

When a dose is too activating, reduction is the only choice. Excessive activation is bad for the nervous system.

 

Of course, one can reduce by a very small amount over a matter of days.

 

I haven't done the math but have a gut feeling that splitting the same dose two times over a day gives the same average blood serum, with less spikes and less dips. There is a for me tricky integral involved or i can do a excel numerical method to find out if you like?

Very good point, wulfgar. And entirely possible that at lower doses, Zoloft is metabolized faster -- there's less of it for the liver to process.

 

Thank you for the charts. In addition, please consider elevation of Zoloft from previous doses. "Half-life" indicates only that half the substance has been metabolized. The rest is processed over some hours; whatever remnant is present at the next dose elevates the substance in blood serum. These overlapping cycles are the principle behind "steady-state," which takes some days to achieve.

[wulfgar]

The charts is of steady state. I have created excel data for about two weeks so that previous days contribution of doses to serum concentration is included, and so that serum fluctuations is the same from day to day, and ploted the end steady state part.

 

I have not included the possibility for a shorter half life on lower doses, which i think is quite plausible. Shorter half life would cause bigger variations between doses. The comparizon between one and two doses, that two doses gives less serum varability, would still hold true though.