hayduke: coming off olanzapine / Zyprexa

[hayduke]

Thanks @morgana

 

What I've been doing this round is leaving a 2.5mg tablet (the smallest they sell) in 50ml of filtered water.  I measure out the water with a 50ml pipette I was using last year.  That suspension stays in the fridge in a brown glass bottle recycled from the chemist's.

 

Now that I'm at and below 0.5mg (1/5th of the mgai in the tablet), I only need to draw 10ml or less each night (1/5 of the 50ml).  So after shaking the bottle really well I draw out the 10ml (or last night, 9.7ml) and drink that.  The finer markings on this pipette let me get 9.7ml more accurately instead of "somewhere between 9.6 and 9.8ml" with the larger one.  As the doses get smaller you want more accuracy because your body notices the smaller changes more.

 

What you really want to do is take 10% off your previous dose each month, not just the same fixed amount.  If you look at my graph just above you can see it resembles a logarithmic curve that flattens out more as it closer to zero more than a straight line.  This is just part of how the drug interacts with your brain, and it can be frustrating to have to slow down as you go, but rushing it will just be worse.

 

The cool change came through here this arvo thanks - been for a walk on the beach, got the windows open now.

 

Cheers

[morgana]

yeah i saw your graph, it is basically a continuious withdrawal....where what i have been doing is sitting on the same amount for a year and then reducing it...not very small increments over shorter periods like you are doing....which sounds your idea is a much better idea....i am still thinking about how i am going to taper.....was thinking i am on 3/4 solid of zyprexa and 1/4 liquid of a 2.5mg tablet....i was thinking if i sit on 1/4 tablet with 30ml water for 2 or 3 months and than start tapering that liquid by .25ml  from a 1 ml pipette every 3 months until that 30mls is gone and then sit on 1/2 solid and the next 1/4 liquid sit for a couple of months and continue until that 30mls is all gone...that way i am still on solid  until i am ready to change to liquid taper....once i have finished the 1/2 tablet of liquid taper, i just cut the tablet in half with a pill cutter throw 1/2  in the bin and just begin the whole process again with the other 1/2 tablet...rather than completely change to 2.5mg liquid taper and then begin tapering from there....it wont be very accurate my way but the truth is i really dont understand mirco tapering....i am better at someone showing me how to do something rather than reading it..... do you think i would experience too bad a withdrawal symptoms doing it my way?  also time wise how long do you think all up it will take you to get from 2.5mg tablet to zero in years doing it your way? let me know cheers morgana

[hayduke]

@morgana I gave up on the pill cutter after 5mg because it was too inaccurate and the constantly varying doses became intrusive.  I could stand one night of inaccurate dosage but after the second it would mess me up the next day to the point where I wouldn't want to go outside or be able to work.  I realised it wouldn't be possible for me to taper safely that way. 

 

You really want a steady dosage that you control precisely or your brain won't be able to adapt to the change in levels and you won't be settled enough to continue. 

 

Liquid taper is pretty straightforward when you get the hang of it.  I watched a you tube clip ages ago where a guy demonstrates how he does it with benzos, you should find something on there which will show you, it's easy enough.  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=liquid+titration+taper

 

If I were you I'd just stay on the solid 2.5mg tablet until you're steady and know you're ready to taper, then you could start crossing over to the liquid.  But I would wait until I was 100% over to the liquid before reducing your dosage.  If you start liquid tapering with parts of a cut up pill, you won't know how much of the drug is in the liquid portion vs the solid chunks, so you're still on the rollercoaster of the pill cutter.  Inconsistent dosing will mess you up.  The point of the liquid taper is the accuracy.

 

I'm not doing a micro taper as such, but it's more gradual than a single 10%/mo cut.  That's a pretty harsh road after this long on the drug.

 

I'm basically following the Brass Monkey Slide taper, which is 2.5%/week for 4 weeks, then a two week hold.  It's about as gentle as a taper is going to get, and I think those of us who've been drugged for long periods get a lot more quality of life this way.  Of course you can slow that even further if you need to.  You can also see I've taken a few long holds when my body, or life, or both, says "give me a break sport".

 

There are online taper calculators that can save you having to do maths in a spreadsheet.  Have a look at http://www.taperoff.co/

 

As to when my taper will finish, I really have no idea at this stage.  I'll just have to see when it seems sensible.

[manymoretodays]

Hi hayduke, @hayduke

I got the last few posts back and forth between morgana and you, moved to morgana's topic.

And explained that when posting around your own situation, that should be done on one's own Introduction thread.  And that way, we have the whole context, of each of your tapers, and updates, in your own topics.

 

17 hours ago, morgana said:

yeah i saw your graph, it is basically a continuious withdrawal....where what i have been doing is sitting on the same amount for a year and then reducing it...not very small increments over shorter periods like you are doing....which sounds your idea is a much better idea....i am still thinking about how i am going to taper.....was thinking i am on 3/4 solid of zyprexa and 1/4 liquid of a 2.5mg tablet....i was thinking if i sit on 1/4 tablet with 30ml water for 2 or 3 months and than start tapering that liquid by .25ml  from a 1 ml pipette every 3 months until that 30mls is gone and then sit on 1/2 solid and the next 1/4 liquid sit for a couple of months and continue until that 30mls is all gone...that way i am still on solid  until i am ready to change to liquid taper....once i have finished the 1/2 tablet of liquid taper, i just cut the tablet in half with a pill cutter throw 1/2  in the bin and just begin the whole process again with the other 1/2 tablet...rather than completely change to 2.5mg liquid taper and then begin tapering from there....it wont be very accurate my way but the truth is i really dont understand mirco tapering....i am better at someone showing me how to do something rather than reading it..... do you think i would experience too bad a withdrawal symptoms doing it my way?  also time wise how long do you think all up it will take you to get from 2.5mg tablet to zero in years doing it your way? let me know cheers morgana

 

I left this one here ^.  I think we may have talked about this a bit on morgana's Introduction and may quote it there too, now.

 

Definitely okay to support and encourage each other, on either thread.  It's just that most of morgana's posts that were moved back to their Introduction were completely morgana's information, updates, that belonged there.

 

Okay, best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[manymoretodays]

And good to see you are doing so well too.  Sorry I did not mention that above.

And looks like you just did, a nice judicious taper!

[hayduke]

All good @manymoretodays, thanks for keeping the joint tidy!

 

And cheers, I can't wait to see the back of this chemical.  Even at 0.5mg I can't jump off yet.  I'm quite curious to see when it will become feasible.

[manymoretodays]

Yes, or no, don't jump off yet. 

Keep going down in those micro increments.

 

Are you sleeping okay?

And sheesh, don't mess around with any drugs or alcohol now.  You're in the home stretch.

[hayduke]

Thanks @manymoretodays sleeping well, thanks.  6-8 hrs most nights and usually pretty settled.  A growing fondness for naps when I can sneak one in too!

 

Giving up coffee and the weed again this year has been it's own challenge, especially the coffee this time, so I've definitely been untangling that stuff ok.

 

While long a habitual drinker, it wasn't that hard to give up for a month earlier in the year, and my grog use has been shrinking since then.  I'll be on the wagon if need be.  For now a few social drinks are feeling ok, if a bit tiring.  One thing at a time 🙂

[Venkat]

Hi hayduke 

 

Congratulations on your progress. Hope you are doing good. 

 

I have a small question. 

 

After preparing the liquid, is it ok to syringe out the amount to be discarded and then consume the remaining left or should I first syringe out the amount to be consumed first and leave the rest to be discarded. I am aware your method is the latter one. Kindly suggest with your experience. 

 

I will be starting to taper olanzapine 5mg from Jan 2021, where in I will be taking 2.5mg solid tablet as a whole and dissolving the other 2.5mg tablet in 40ml of water. This time I want to be tapering at 2.5% of the current dose every two weeks as I could not tolerate 10% reductions per month. 

 

Regards, venkat 

 

 

[hayduke]

11 minutes ago, Venkat said:

Hi hayduke 

 

Congratulations on your progress. Hope you are doing good. 

 

I have a small question. 

 

After preparing the liquid, is it ok to syringe out the amount to be discarded and then consume the remaining left or should I first syringe out the amount to be consumed first and leave the rest to be discarded. I am aware your method is the latter one. Kindly suggest with your experience. 

 

I will be starting to taper olanzapine 5mg from Jan 2021, where in I will be taking 2.5mg solid tablet as a whole and dissolving the other 2.5mg tablet in 40ml of water. This time I want to be tapering at 2.5% of the current dose every two weeks as I could not tolerate 10% reductions per month. 

 

Regards, venkat 

 

 

 

Thanks mate.  Whichever way round you like, the maths should work out the same.  I’ve done it both ways over the years.

 

Take your taper as slow as you need.  A slower starting rate will help.  Adjust as needed and only make cuts when you are stable and settled from the one before.

 

If/when you start having difficulties as you taper, try and work on managing the symptoms.  Then see if you can work out what’s coming up and why, and how to process and release it.  These things are bound to get uncovered as the tranquilisers wear off.  You might need help with these feelings etc - go and find it if you do.

 

Cheers

[hayduke]

Update - Been doing more EMDR, it had become clear over the last few months what else I needed to process and expunge.  A tad tender after yesterday’s session but that’s to be expected and new insights and bits of gristle to chuck up are emerging as you might hope.

 

Nice that work is winding down for the year too, civilised eh.  Seems to be the neoliberal agenda has been eroding such human niceties, if it took covid to show why those matter it’s not all in vain.

 

Cheers

 

 

[morgana]

good to hear you are working everything out for yourself...congrats...work winding down for you?.....sounds nice....i just got myself a job today unfortunately....lol so its going to be busy for me over the holidays....i am just at the beginning of working on my issues with a therapist...i see him tomorrow...but i do find the less medication the more emotional traumas we have to deal with.....

[Venkat]

Hi hayduke 

 

Thanks a lot, it was really reassuring. Will do as you suggested. 

 

Regards, venkat 

[hayduke]

1 hour ago, morgana said:

good to hear you are working everything out for yourself...congrats...work winding down for you?.....sounds nice....i just got myself a job today unfortunately....lol so its going to be busy for me over the holidays....i am just at the beginning of working on my issues with a therapist...i see him tomorrow...but i do find the less medication the more emotional traumas we have to deal with.....

 

Grats on the job Morgana...hope it opens doors for you. 

 

Yes the less drug the more emotional pains surface...but letting them up means you can see them off :-)

[hayduke]

28 minutes ago, Venkat said:

Hi hayduke 

 

Thanks a lot, it was really reassuring. Will do as you suggested. 

 

Regards, venkat 

 

Remember, you're the one in control.  Listen to your body, work on calming yourself and stay safe.  Cheers

[morgana]

so true hayduke! I think the only doors that will be opening for me will be the toilet doors i will be opening so i can clean the public toilet.....lol....got a job as a cleaner at a shopping center.....lol 

[BadMedicine]

Hey @hayduke. Glad the EMDR is working for you. What does it entail and how does it work? I tried CBT to sort myself out psychologically but I am too set in my ways for it to work. Self defeatist I guess you could call it!

 

I am looking for alternatives and like the sound of something where you do some physical process to help sort out the emotional. I also am thinking of hypnotherapy to try to get over my fear of talking to people which started with the Sertraline and is getting better now that I have stopped it but isn’t back to where I was before the drugs.

 

Good for you that work is quieting down.I wish my work would ease off. People are still panicking about all the time that was lost during the strict lockdown so wanting everything done ASAP.I work as a scientist in the lab so couldn’t work from home so we lost nearly 6 months worth of work!

[hayduke]

@morgana if that works out for a while could you pivot to something closer to what you want to do?

 

@BadMedicine yeah for sure, I wrote a fair bit earlier in the thread here and in the EMDR thread.

 

CBT seems more suitable for problematic cognitive patterns. 

 

EMDR is more suited to bringing up traumas, especially suppressed ones (no way my 4 year old brain could process what happened to me at the time) and reliving them so that your amygdala can put it into long term memory.  Otherwise they tend to stay subconscious but keep setting off your fight or flight response ('anxiety disorder' anyone?  or worse).  Your body doesn't know the threat has really passed until it's consciously processed and passed through to long term memory.

 

More here.

 

I'd guess it's probably a better bet for issues you'd class as emotional.  My cognition's been fine since, and while some strong emotions have come up, I don't feel there's been any problem recognising them, where they come from or where they should go :-)

 

Having a clinical psychologist who is a trauma expert has been key for me.  It's also really important you find one you're comfortable with as some really difficult stuff might come out.

 

 

 

 

 

[morgana]

Hi hayduke, my therapist is interested in Dialectable behaviour therapy, he said CBT method is alittle out of fashion now, their are better methods now....they also do EMDR however he wants me to read a book on the dialectable therapy, so i assume he is interested in using this method....i too am always in a fight or flight mode...if something upsets me i just gotta get out of the situation...and i over-react to situations....i never use to be like this...i find since reducing my meds....i constantly feel anxious....i am sure underlying repressed feelings significantly cause this, but i honestly feel the drugs are causing high levels of cortisone to be released in the body or something and making the situation 100 times worse....and so i now have to learn with a therapist how to deal with lifes events in the most appropriate way...does that make sense?

 

[hayduke]

@morgana yeah, as the drug sedation wears off the root problems demand more attention.  That's why they dish out the drugs - it's easier (for "them"!) to shut the problems up than have you work through them. 

 

EMDR works for me by moving the problems out from hammering my fight/flight/freeze into the past where they can be laid to rest - the price is living through them, if only briefly, in vivid horror and processing them - but that is why you want a good therapist who will hold your hand through that and see you to the shore.  And they'll stop kicking and screaming after that.

 

There will be other roads, that's the one that got me unf**ked.

 

Cortisol/stress hormones and adrenalin are just consequences of your limbic system going off too often/easily, as above.  Moving somewhere quiet has really helped me reset that to a better baseline.  Up in FNQ I suppose you'll have a better chance of finding quiet natural spaces than say Brisvegas.  Meditation and yoga can also help heaps.  Cheers

[morgana]

yeah its pretty relaxing where i am, quite laid back, i am not in Brisbane...too busy for me...i am in cairns in the FAR NORTH...the wet tropics....however  we cannot say its called the wet tropics anymore we have had water restrictions for the past 20 years...but still quite green in our summer season...we have tropical rainforests, great barrier reef and beaches, OK walking tracks in the National Parks and 15mins away from everything..we have alot of wildlife which i really like and use to volunteer and Wildlife Rescue taking in orphaned birds.    Unfortunatley everyone is coming here from the south and its growing way too fast...i hate it!...do not like progress!   NO way could i handle a big city ever again...i love my space

[ChessieCat]

Please condense your drug signature so that it doesn't take up so much room.  Since the software upgrade, some of the topics appear on the left side of the screen.  I'm using a desktop computer and your drug signature takes up the whole length of my screen so it makes it difficult to read posts.

 

I suggest that you post your current drug signature into a post so you still have access to the information.  Once that is done you can copy the link location and include that in your drug signature.

 

For anything older than 2020 we just need a summary.

 

Also, we don't need anything other than drug name, dose and dates.  Other details just make it harder to see your drug history at a glance.

 

Thank you.

 

*** I am not a health professional - your actions are your own ***

 

My taper visualised as a graph   |   My intro thread

 

10mg olanzapine 2003-06.  3mg risperidone 2006-2014 gave slight weight loss but mediocre sleep.  Abrupt x-taper to try aripiprazole Dec 2014 increasingly restless (Freddy the blind man could've seen that coming, shame about the pdoc) then back onto 10mg olanzapine after 3 weeks.

Round 1:  2015   10 -> 7 1/2 -> 6 2/3 -> 5mg olanzapine.   Hadn't researched, just decided to try it myself with pill cutter.  Easy enough.  Next cut to 3 1/3mg for 2 weeks had me struggling to function.  Reverted to 5mg, thought that was as far as I could go.

Round 2:  Given Breggin to read, found SA.  Taper from 5 to 2.5mg over five months.  Titrate liquid suspension using Rhi's method.  Cuts and holds all done by feel.  All samples at start of month in mg:

2018:  Feb 5.0 | Mar 4.5 | Apr 4.25 | May 3.7 | Jun 3.3 | Jul 3.1 | Aug 2.9 | Sep 2.5 and six month hold

Round 3:  2.5mg and below.  EMDR work unearthed and resolved root trauma at around 2.1mg

2019:  Jan 2.5 | Feb 2.3 | Mar 2.215 / EMDR / Apr 1.976 | May 1.875 | Jun 1.825 | Jul 1.625 | Aug 1.525 | Sep 1.46 | Oct 1.3 | Nov 1.225 | Dec 1.25

2020:  Jan 1.214 | Feb 1.1 | Mar 1.0 🙂 | Apr 0.88 | May 0.82 | June 0.74 | July 0.69 | Aug 0.61 | Sep 0.59 | Oct 0.525 | Nov 0.5 | Dec 0.485

‘If you think you’re enlightened, spend a week with your family.’  -- Ram Dass

 

[BadMedicine]

Hey @hayduke. Thanks for your reply and info. Really interesting. I wouldn’t say that I have experienced any particular trauma in my life but I have experienced a couple of episodes of bullying which has left a lasting impact on my self confidence and I think contributed to my psychotic episode along with the fact that I physically ran myself into the ground. I used to compete at quite a high level at triathlon and used to train 10-14 hours a week on top of a full time job. Not enough rest came back to bite me! 
Not sure if EMDR is really the right approach to my problems although could be useful for addressing the emotional scarring from the bullying? I’ll have a think about it.

[Venkat]

Hi hayduke 

What kind of meditation was helping you, can you please suggest. 

 

Regards, venkat 

[hayduke]

@morgana If only 'progress' meant 'improvement'.

 

@ChessieCat Done.  I blame Steve Jobs 🙂

 

@BadMedicine  Bullying can certainly be traumatic and it sounds like you've already made that connection.  EMDR has worked for me there, there may be other options.  I wouldn't look at CBT for that stuff, cognition won't get at the root cause.  Suggest reading Bessel van der Kolk.

 

@Venkat  Which meditations do you like?  I could tell you what's helpful for me, but it may be better to start exploring yourself and finding out what works for you.  I would probably stay away from Raja and Kundalini yoga for now, though.  Restorative yoga is my fave during wd and healing, but I haven't been since covid.  Anything that calms your nervous system is good, basically.

[Venkat]

I prefer vipasana and Anuloma viloma , both related to breathing and pathanjali yoga for the body. 

Thanks hayduke. 

 

Regards, venkat 

[Venkat]

Hi hayduke 

Just tried restorative yoga after watching some videos, it felt good . It looked like a blend of yoga and meditation. I will continue with that. 

Regards, venkat

[hayduke]

Glad to hear the restorative yoga is working for you @Venkat

 

Update:

 

Feeling pretty glad to be at this low dosage of 0.44mg.  Holding here for another fortnight as per the brass monkey schedule.  The last round of cuts has been pretty manageable.  Even as 2020 dished out more extraordinary stresses I felt ok to keep to the schedule here.  No doubt the preceding long hold helped a lot.

 

Current supplements:

400 ug Methyl folate (felt worse after they ran out and better after replacing)

1000IU Vitamin E

50mg Zinc

Yogurt every day or two with 1.5g magnesium L-threonate, 2-3 shots ground hemp seed, 2 shots ground linseed, 1 shot chia seeds and fresh fruit at will

Having MgCl/Epsom salts foot soaks as well (right now)

L-theanine as desired to doze off again if early morning cortisol spike happens, or occasionally when anxious.  Less than I was taking before.

Berocca some days.  Hasn't ever felt like a problem unlike some other B vitamins I tried and abandoned over the taper.

 

EMDR revealed more difficult things to work through, I will continue with that.  Much better to deal with short periods of considerable discomfort and process it than having it rot under the rug indefinitely.

 

Doing forest bathing and beach walks, and long talks with friends.  And catching up on video games is fun.  Glad to have a bit of time off.

 

[BadMedicine]

Glad the cuts are going smoothly for you. Must feel good to be so low. You are an example of how a patient and slow taper done at the bodies speed rather than the calendar results in successfully getting significantly down on the dosage. I’m sure it will continue to be smooth sailing for you as you get ever closer to zero.

[Carmie]

Hi there Hayduke, 

 

Thanks for your message on my thread. How are you doing? It looks like your tapering is going well, I’m so happy for you. I’m glad you’re getting out in nature, it certainly is soothing.
 

Have a good day, sending hugs🤗

[hayduke]

Been continuing intensive EMDR.  While this work by its nature hauls up an ugly mess of bad feelings, sorting them out and throwing them in the compost is such a valuable process.  Quiet time is essential while I do this, so if I've not replied to anyone lately, that's why.  Feeling ok right now, next week who knows?  🙂

 

It's draining, and it's a relief to be on holidays while I do this, but so many good feelings to reconnect to from before the various traumas are showing up again.  Even if it's missing people and places from long ago, how nice to reconnect with my life in that way.  And of course various moments in the sun, some of which carry through now.

 

It's a rollercoaster but one that tends to even out for a better future.

 

I've continued my taper during, which doesn't seem to be much of an extra burden at the moment.  Due at 0.415mg tonight down from 0.425. 

 

It seems like my body's gone through another turning point below 0.5mg, where interestingly I had to hold for a couple of months.  I don't think it's a receptor crossover this time, I think my body is reverting to more normal operation wrt metabolising fat, sugar etc.  I am becoming more tolerant of hot weather again than I've been for many years, and am able to exercise more.  I have a good 20kg of lard to burn off, and now I've started that's going well.  Eating less and better, and drinking less alcohol is coming fairly naturally as well, and of course I would like these newer habits to stick!

 

Happy New Year all

[hayduke]

Also want to mention Bessel van der Kolk's book The Body Keeps The Score again.  Challenging (because trauma).  Very validating and eye opening.  I love how the guy works persistently to improve our lives, especially in the context of the social systems in question.

 

It's been helping me make still more sense of what I've been through as well as illuminating the 'Exit' light signage 🙂

[morgana]

its good to hear your doing so well, your an inspiration to all on those who aim to get off zyprexa

[Rrsfc]

Yes, hayduke you're an inspiration. I am glad you're doing well, hope it continues... You're so close, I feel you will make it! 

[Bobblehead]

Hey hayduke,

 

Been reading the stories about all of us trying to come off Olanzapine. Just wanted to wish you good luck, I hope you succeed. It's damn hard and for me the insomnia is now the worst part. Been completely off it for almost 7 weeks.

[BadMedicine]

Really pleased to see you doing so well and great that you are noticing positive changes in your body. I wish you continued success.

As a side note I have initiated some therapy with someone who is going to work through the trauma of the bullying I experienced and the fallout from the psychotic episode that was a trauma in itself. One of the things he does is EMDR. I hope it works as well for me as it has for you and good on you for working through your past issues.