Erell: struggling with paroxetine

[Erell]

@Mimi79 and @Dejavu : thank you ! Your hugs and wishes are deeply appreciated ! ❤️ 

 

Quickly stopping by this evening because I always think good news are very important to share : since yesterday, I have some easier moments that are very sweet. It doesn't last long, but it is amazing : like if, suddenly, the cloudy sky in my head was clearing up ! 

 

Take care friends ☀️

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Erell

[Dejavu]

Oh, @Erell, that is wonderful! Even though those moments don't last long yet, the fact that you're having them at all is a strong indicator that you're starting to level out. Great news!

[Frogie]

That is great news!

[Cocopuffz17]

That is great to hear! Glad you are having a better time 😊

[Longroadhome]

That’s really good news @Erell So pleased for you 😊

 

[Subzero42]

Hi Erell,

 

I send you courage

 

Keep hope 

[Cigale]

On 7/25/2020 at 7:59 PM, Erell said:

it is amazing : like if, suddenly, the cloudy sky in my head was clearing up ! 

 

Bonjour @Erell! This is wonderful news. I hope more sunny skies come your way! 🌻

[Erell]

Thank you dear friends ❤️ Those sunny skies have been deeply appreciated, with big smiles !  

 

Prozac bridge update ~ 7.5mg  Fluoxetine (2 weeks) / 0.03mg Paroxetine (5 days) : 

 

--> 24-25-26 July : symptoms easier, mostly mild. Some moments with low symptoms.

--> 27-28 July : cortisol rushes worsen/ anxiety increase / restlessness/ some crying spells / racing intrusive thoughts/ impending doom/ Hypervigilance

 

I naively hoped that I wouldn't feel the Paroxetine drop thanks to the Fluoxetine updose, but I was wrong. My better moments were maybe what is called a "honeymoon" before chaos.

Didn't expect this difficulty level when I started my bridge in April.

 

@brassmonkey : You wrote in many threads that everyone does eventually stabilise (after a reinstatement). From all the cases you've seen, does it also apply to a switch between 2 drugs ?

I'm trying to understand if my best option is to keep updosing Fluoxetine, or just quit Paroxetine and wait for stabilisation on the same Fluoxetine amount.

 

I apologize, I sound a bit like a broken record. Probably because I wanna make sure I'll stay financially and daily independent and autonomous.

 

Take care ☀️

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Erell

[Frogie]

@Erell

 

I just wanted to stop by and say hi.

 

You are going to heal. It just takes time and lots of patients. 

 

I think you are a wonderful person, going through this and being able to help members on here.

 

Hang in there my friend 💗

 

Take care,

Frogie xx

[brassmonkey]

Hi Erell-- our bodies are designed to seek and maintain homeostasis or balance in all their functions. Each time we change that balance by adding or subtracting a drug it throws the body into chaos as it makes adjustments to get back to that balance. It's not just the change between drugs but all the little adjustments that you have made in the past several months that are helping to keep your body confused. One of the traps that catches many people while tapering is "trying to find the sweet spot" with their dosing.  The problem is that the "sweet spot" can be a little different each day, so it is practically impossible to hit.  This is compounded by the length of time it takes for the drug's blood serum level to stabilize and the body to react to that stability. It makes it very easy to make too many changes too quickly, and as I said each change upsets the body even more. For right now I think you need to determine a dose for each medication and then stick with it for several months.  This will allow your body to find it's footing and start to stabilize.

 

Stabilizing from a reinstatement or updose is different from stabilizing from a cross taper between drugs. With a reinstatement or updose the body has to get use to a new level of the drug it is familiar with. However, with a cross taper one drug is basically CTed and the new drug is used to provide what the original drug was doing AND to cover up the symptoms of the CT. This can be quite a tall order. From my observations this works well about half the time is sufficient time is allowed for the body to stabilize after the switch, but this can take a lot of time time.  In the cases where it doesn't work it is usually very obvious in the first few weeks with a large increase in symptoms similar to an adverse reaction. If a persons symptom load is manageable then they should eventually stabilize and be able to continue to taper the new drug.  If their symptoms become unbearable then crossing back, restabilizing and continuing to taper is the best option.

 

As I pointed out above, I think you are on the right track, but need to settle in one place and let your body adjust to the situation, then stability will happen. You are changing from a drug that is very hard taper to one that is much gentler which is why this change is recommended.  I had a taper buddy named Aberdeen who was hard switched (no cross taper) from effexor to paxil, basically from bad to worse, but she was able to stabilize on the paxil and eventually tapered off.  She has been drug free for several years and is living a great life. 

 

Try not to over think the situation then give your body some time to sort things out.

[Erell]

Hello Brassmonkey,

And thank you for taking the time.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/21457-erell-struggling-with-paroxetine/?do=findComment&comment=493258

 

In this post Altostrata says that I need to "find the right Prozac dosage", which I understood as a suggestion to updose until I reach the 'good amount'.

 

You said :

 

14 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

One of the traps that catches many people while tapering is "trying to find the sweet spot" with their dosing. 

 

each change upsets the body even more.

 

I'm very confused between those two opposite suggestions, and having a hard time to make a decision.

 

I also know that nobody can predict the future or know the truth about these drugs, so ultimately I have to make my own decision and take the responsability.

 

I'm currently loosing my job, and even if I know SA is only a peer support website and nobody here can do anything for my daily life, I was (and probably am) obsessing about finding the "best solution " to try to save my job and be functionnal. 

 

Anyway, I thank you and Altostrata for taking the time to answer and for all the time you give to SA. 

It really is priceless !

 

Take care  ❤

Edited July 29, 2020 by Erell

[brassmonkey]

That is part of the problem with a cross taper. You do need to find the dosage that works the best for you, but in doing so it tends to destabilize things further, but once you've found the dose that you think works well it is best to stay on it for a while to make sure. It's not like things will magically be better when you hit the right combination, they will have to settle in. 

 

I'm so sorry to hear about the problems with your job, I do hope they work out.

[Vegalia]

Coucou, 

 

Courage ma belle. 

 

Mes pensées et mon soutien. 

 

Bisous. 

 

❤️

[Altostrata]

Erell, I would give the adjustment to the paroxetine change a little more time. It takes about 4 days to fully take effect, then your system has to rebalance on the new drug baseline.

 

It's incredible that such a small amount would have such a big effect, isn't it?

[Erell]

17 hours ago, Altostrata said:

It's incredible that such a small amount would have such a big effect, isn't it?

Utterly incredible yes !

Looking at my notes, I went straight back to hell in June when I dropped Paroxetine dose from 0.1mg to 0.06mg (cortisol rushes back, anxiety through the roof, random brutal depression and SI).

And struggling since.

Such a tiny 0.04mg drop !

 

And I'm probably having more stress because of work issues : as I don't manage to be functionnal at work or fake it since June, I'm loosing my job and it adds a lot of stress. 

 

And thank you Brassmonkey for taking the time to explain : it really helps to benefit from objective point of views.

@Altostrata : considering the need to stay on the same combination for months instead of doing changes (highlighted by Brassmonkey), how would you quit Paroxetine in order to end the crossover ?

- staying on 0.03mg Paroxetine for months ?

- dropping to 0 in 4 weeks ?

(I ask because I  will have to find more liquid Paroxetine if I should take it for months).

 

Well, I'm gonna go for my morning walk and and try to focus on the beauty of the seaside ☀️

Edited July 30, 2020 by Erell

[Altostrata]

You'll have to see how you do over the next few weeks, but I would favor

9 hours ago, Erell said:

- dropping to 0 in 4 weeks ?

 

You can take little boosters of paroxetine by dipping a toothpick in the liquid. This may help you get over the rough patch.

[Erell]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

You can take little boosters of paroxetine by dipping a toothpick in the liquid. This may help you get over the rough patch.

Definitely not something I will tell to my psychiatrist 😅

 

Thank you for your answer.

Have a nice day ☀️

[Hanna72]

Erell I can totally relate. I am first of all so sorry to hear about your situation. I have been there. 
I find that when off these meds or as you are have tiny substance in your systems we are hit with a lot of thoughts and emotions. Something we have not experienced for years. It is overwhelming and scary. Our job now is to face it head on, and not let our mind get the best of us. This is what we are headed towards, that is feeling and having emotions. No wonder it takes courage and work to face this. But you can do it💪 Come on girl, I believe in you🙏 You can do it, push through the hard times, and in the end you will be so proud what you have overcome. Remember it’s ok to hurt, feel sad and be afraid, but in the end you will be free🙏

[sunnysideup69]

@Erell,

You're gonna get through this. I'm sorry about the work situation, I really am. I know how stressful it is to be self reliant and not feel able to work. 

Sending you lots of love and a big hug. 

[Dejavu]

Erell, I hope your walk by the sea helped you a bit. I've always wanted to live close to water. I envy you.

 

Please keep your chin up. I really believe stability is closer than it feels. And just think, when you stabilize, compared to all you've been through, tapering prozac should be the easiest part of the journey. 

 

Hugs!!

[Longroadhome]

It’s challenging  how these drugs Take over all bodily functions that we have no control over. 
I think we can all relate to the symptoms you describe and how debilitating they can be. 
its not easy testing  ones ability to manage them and I think you are a very strong and courageous person for doing just that. 
keep going don’t look back keep your eyes focused ahead of you. Your goal. . WD doesn’t last forever and such is the strangeness of these symptoms that they can go from really severe to manageable overnight. 
take care Erell 
 

[Erell]

@Hanna72, @sunnysideup69, @Dejavu, @Longroadhome, @Frogie: thank you from the bottom of my heart ! Your words mean a lot, truly ❤️

 

Well, today I feel the need to express some of my thoughts and feelings. Mostly because I don't talk to anyone, so I feel the need to take some things out of my mind. Feel free to read or not  

 

What is WD, and what is not ?

I often wonder, especially because of my work situation, what is WD and what is not.

For example : I "spiral" a lot these days, mostly because I'm loosing my job, I'm disabled by Wd symptoms and wonder if I should give up. These are clearly thoughts, not WD symptoms. To cope with these thoughts, I use a lot of CBT techniques, and I'm kind of proud because I think that now I notice the beginning of the spirale earlier.

 

But I also know that some emotions are clearly WD : for example, I live in a constant high anxiety state. The other day, suddenly, I felt like all the tension in my body just disappeared, just like that ! It lasted only a few minutes.

Same with depression : it sometimes appears on and off brutally.

 

About work : 

I am truly amazed by all the dear survivors that manage to work despite strong WD symptoms. I must confess that I don't really understand how they manage to.

I was able to go back to work last january, only because symptoms were much lower. 

But right now, and since June, I feel unable to do so because of too strong neuroemotions. I try, I force myself, but I don't manage to. How do people do ? This is a real mystery for me.

 

Socialising : 

I feel quite stuck about this one. Often on SA people highlight the importance of social interactions in order to heal.

But I don't really manage to do that.

Before my Paroxetine crash, I used to be a very social person, and I loved being around people, meeting new people.

But now I suffer from some high social anxiety : the only idea of seeing someone, or discussing with someone freaks me out.

And everytime I try, it happens to be more difficult than being alone in my flat.

I went to see family and it was very stressfull because they pressure me to updose, take new meds, go to psychward, ...

I went to see a friend, but it was really hard to discuss, I had lot of crying spells and anxiety spikes.

 

So I spend my weeks alone. Lockdown was actually easier for me : nothing was expected from me except staying home !

 

I try to be inspired by Shep : she mentionned that she went through her journey alone, and she really is an amazing woman !

 

...hairiness :

Well, this is a strange one ! I'm a blond hair girl and never had a lot of hair on my body. Since my Paroxetine crash, I have a lot more black hair all over my body and I'm way more hairy than before. 

I guess that all this WD thing has confused my hormones.

 

About being strong : 

I truly admire all survivors for all the strenght they show by going through all this ! it really is the hardest thing we'll have to face in our lives !

Sometimes, I get really discourage and feel like i don't have strenght anymore. I mean, now that I have discovered SA and gained more knowledge, I know that eventually WD does fade and CNS do stabilise.

But how to stay strong in the long run ?

I've been medicated since I was 14-15, and struggling since etiher because of side effects, or because of WD. I've struggled at different levels, and to be honest some times have been nice ( I remember an incredibly bright month after my Benzo taper ❤️ ).

But the thing is, as i'm nearly 30 years old, half of my life is WD or side effects. I have issues to imagine what could be my life after, or how to keep strong while it's the only thing I've known.

 

 

Well, I apologize for this novel, and don't know how much understandable it is : just needed to express a bit

 

Wish you all nice day ☀️

[Longroadhome]

@Erell

 

yes you’ve been on medication a long time and since you were young . However WD shows no preference to long term users, short term users, how old you were when you started, how old you are when withdrawing Etc etc None of this makes any difference To the length of time it will take to recover. What will be will be. So you mustn’t worry about the implications of being young and a long term user of meds. 
No matter the length of time everyone does recover. I have talked with Baylissa Frederick who has worked with many many people over 15 years that were going through WD And she cannot emphasis  enough that everybody recovers  By Accepting how you feel, letting  time pass  and being patient.
 

[Erell]

@Longroadhome : 

 

Hello dear, and thank you for your words

 

oops, I wans't clear : I  wasn't talking about the implications of being young or length of time on the drugs.

How am I gonna say this in English ? 😅

It's just that I read a lot of people on SA who wants to get back to their previous life, who hang on to the life before AD's. Their memories and knowledge of a "previous life" seems to give them strenght.

In my case : I struggle to have memories before being a teenager, and I don't want to get to my life before AD's. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't

 

So what I was trying to say in my post is : 

 

- I sometimes don't know how to hang on to a brighter future as I don't really have experienced "normal" adult life

- I try to meet myself and create my life, my baseline, but it is very hard to do while struggling with neuroemotions

 

This is one of the reason why Shep is a mentor for me  :  she has been drugged since being young and had to create her own baseline. She even succeeded ❤️ !

 

Well, don't know if it's clearer 😃 

 

Have a nice day/evening 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Erell

[Vegalia]

Coucou, 

 

J'espère que mon français né derangera pas, mais je n'ai pas la force d'ecrire en anglais. 

 

Très étrange.. Ces jours-ci je me suis fait beaucoup de réflexions très similaires aux tiennes. 

Bien sûr mon parcours est beaucoup plus court, mais beaucoup de similitudes avec ton ressenti actuel et tes interrogations. 

 

Je ne vis pas seule mais c'est un peu comme si je l'etais. Et je continue à me forcer, trop, bien trop comme j'ai fait toute ma vie en fait, vivant à un rythme trop brutal. Alors que n'étant pas seule je devrais pouvoir demander de l'aide mais la personne avec qui je vis est fermée. 

Du coup je suis isolée aussi et sans travailler depuis deux ans, c'est très dur. Les jours se ressemblent trop. 

 

J'ai beaucoup plus il me semble, de difficultés que toi à différencier ce qui est WD de ce qui ne l'est pas, mais je sais que tout n'est pas WD et ça m'explose à la figure. Et les neuro-emotions intenses restent bloquées, les douleurs aussi car je ne pleure toujours pas. 

Ce sont des courses, des parcours epuisants. Il est difficile aussi de ne pas trop penser dans de telles situations 

 

Demain je vois une magnétiseuse et deux autres fois ensuite. Pas trop mon truc a priori mais... Elle se trouve à 3 km de chez moi et ne fait rien payer, alors qui sait?  Si ça enlevait certains blocages ? 

 

Ne doute pas de ta force et de tes incroyables capacités d'adaptation, même si le découragement est logique parfois.Tu m'as toujours impressionnée, tu es une source d:'inspiration pour moi. Je crois vraiment en toi. Tu peux te sentir mieux, j'en suis sûre. 

Prends soin de toi, à ton rythme. Tu es vraiment forte ma chère. 

 

Bisous. 

 

❤️

[Cigale]

Dear sweet and strong @Erell - I have read and re-read your ideas on WD/not WD thoughts, work, socializing, hairiness and being strong. I swear you have a true gift for communicating and connecting with others - even in a second language. (I keep thinking that you would make an incredibly insightful multilingual therapist.) Your insights are profound and I see myself and my challenges in all those concepts. I wish I could help you find answers, but want to let you know that you are not alone. These difficulties all seem to be part of this challenging WD journey, and because they are so foreign to us (I have never had trouble socializing or riding my bike), they can be so hard to accept. 

 

But you are doing all the right things. Using CBT to help with your thinking is critical and you should be so proud. I have also been trying ACT therapy. Getting yourself out every day for a walk along the ocean is so important. Writing and sharing your thoughts is good - and helps other, like me, merci. You are an especially talented writer! I also TRY to meditate and do yoga - which works some days. One form of meditation that seems to work better for me is yoga nidra - breathing into your body one section at a time - because it gives my spinning brain a focus. Here’s a resource in different languages for different issues. As for socializing, I am not sure what to say to help since this is really hard for me too now. One thing I try to do is to reach out at least once a day to someone - by texting a nice photo or calling to find out how someone is doing. And then, some days, I am weak and just sit on the couch and breath and cry a little. But even in doing ‘nothing,’ I am doing something by giving myself a break.

 

You are so young and have so much awareness and compassion. You are already using your experiences and challenges to grow - something many people never do. I believe if you just trust in your incredible strength and wisdom, your path will open before you. 

 

Sending hugs and sweet light - Cigale

 

PS - Though I don’t have the hairiness issue, I do have icky warts that started when I reintroduced lexapro in 2019. They are only on my left side. So weird these chemicals makes us go through such an odd metamorphosis. Maybe we are now caterpillars...

[Erell]

On 5/2/2020 at 6:07 PM, Altostrata said:

I would wait at least 2 weeks after a fluoxetine increase to decide whether more is needed.

 

1. Do you think I should go up to 8mg Fluoxetine?

 

My guts are telling me that I don't take enough Fluoxetine to cover Paxil WD.

But I don't know if I can trust my guts.

 

 

2. You said that according to a knowledgable doctor you know 5mg Fluoxetine is often sufficient to substitute with 10mg Paroxetine.

Do you know how this doctor proceed when it is not the case  ?

 

Thank you ❤

[Altostrata]

3 hours ago, Erell said:

My guts are telling me that I don't take enough Fluoxetine to cover Paxil WD.

 

Did you feel better after the last increase? Yes, you can increase fluoxetine if you intuitively feel you need more.

 

3 hours ago, Erell said:

2. You said that according to a knowledgable doctor you know 5mg Fluoxetine is often sufficient to substitute with 10mg Paroxetine.

Do you know how this doctor proceed when it is not the case  ?

 

He increases fluoxetine.

[Erell]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

 

Did you feel better after the last increase? Yes, you can increase fluoxetine if you intuitively feel you need more

 

I have issues to know : things are pretty hard since June with a lot of fluctuations.

But I have the feeling that I'm not taking enough Fluoxetine to susbtitute.

I don't know if it is rationnal or if it is a "need to do something".

I've had some short nice moments on 24/25th July (10 days after last increase).

I Have to make a decision

 

Alto, I wanna apologise and thank you :  I ask you a lot during this difficult never-ending switch, because I trust your knowledge and advices.

I should be asking to my psychiatrist who is being paid for that, but while you give me careful advices, he urges me to take Prazepam and Alprazolam (Xanax, seriously?!).

So thank you, for everything.

[Altostrata]

3 hours ago, Erell said:

I've had some short nice moments on 24/25th July (10 days after last increase).

 

10 days would be just about when the increase is starting to make a difference in fluoxetine's blood level.

 

Yes, I would increase fluoxetine again, by 0.5mg. Be sure to keep daily notes for 2 weeks after. If you see the same pattern -- at 10 days you feel better but after that, the bad symptom pattern returns, I would increase again.

[Erell]

8 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Yes, I would increase fluoxetine again, by 0.5mg. Be sure to keep daily notes for 2 weeks after. If you see the same pattern -- at 10 days you feel better but after that, the bad symptom pattern returns, I would increase again.

 

Updosed to 8mg this morning. 

Recorded in my daily notes 

 

Thank you ❤

[Cigale]

Bonjour @Erell! I am hoping with all my heart that 8 is the magic number for you. And if you need a different kind of therapy today, you might want to see this thread that Sunnyside69 shared with me: 

 

 

Bisous Ma Belle!

[Erell]

 

Since 12 hours, I'm experiencing a significant worsening of my symptoms.

Yesterday, I've felt better with very low anxiety and no depression during one hour.

In the evening, all of a sudden, symptoms have worsened : a high sense of dread appeared and have only been able to sleep 1hour. Intense dread all night. Massive impending doom.

 

Despite all I've been through, I've been Lucky this year in the sense that I haven't suffered from insomnia. This is quite new.

 

I know one bad night doesn't make a trend, so will have to see what happens in the next few days.

Still in intense dread this morning, a feeling I haven't felt for months + massive impending doom + highly restless and feel like I'm going crazy.

 

@Altostrata : I've never felt so restless, mentally and physically. 

Could it be the updose ?

I could go back to 7.5mg Fluoxetine, but wasn't feeling good either.

I'm really lost and loosing faith.

I'm trying to use my toolkit to cope.

 

Haven't made any other change (same diet, no other drugs, no alcohol, same routine). Drugs bottles opened since 2 weeks, expiration dates in 2021.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Erell

[sunnysideup69]

Am hoping for you that it's a temporary blip, @Erell. I see you're a couple of days into the updose...hang on in there.

 

You're right, one night of insomnia is horrible but it doesn't predict a pattern. Hopefully, you can get some rest today.

 

Sending love and support from London. Hug 😘

[Erell]

Thank you @sunnysideup69 ❤

I'm in a state that is very hard to describe, don't think I've ever felt that way. So restless.

Gonna try to take a walk.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Erell

[Longroadhome]

Thinking of you @Erell

And wishing you well x