Erell: struggling with paroxetine

[Erell]

8 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

You could probably do both, since it will take a couple of weeks for the fluoxetine level to decline.

 

Will do this morning. 

 

The fact that you still believe I can feel better and my switch will work is a huge helper to hang on.

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Erell

[Hanna72]

@Erell

I have a gut feeling that getting rid of Paxil even for that tiny dose you had left will move you to stabilising. The further away I got from Paxil, the more I stabilised on fluoxetine. Well done💪

Don’t be pushed around by the fears in your mind. Be led around by the dreams in your heart .

Hugs my friend 💖

Edited August 16, 2020 by Hanna72

[sunnysideup69]

Hello @Erell,

 

 

I have everything crossed for you. You already know it's likely to be bumpy. When I switched last year, it took a good four months for things to begin to settle, for example. 

 

This last few months is a glitch in the proceedings. 

 

Sending a big hug xxx

 

 

[Erell]

Hello dears, 

 

thank you for the warm words

 

@Hanna72 : I love your gut feeling 😃 

I remember that you once told me that you felt better 2 weeks after stopping Paroxetine, so, even if everyone's journey is different (and you were on 20mg Prozac), it helps  me greatly ❤️ 

 

Symptoms are really strong : intense dread, feelings lije going crazy, doom feelings, no color or pleasure, strong 'lugubrious' feelings, dark cloud, mostly housebound.

I try to 'selfcare' as much as possible : relaxation, puzzles, walking at least once everyday, ...

I don't have any impact on the feelings so I try my best to accept them.

I however manage sometimes to impact my thoughts with distraction : walking and cleaning being my best tips ! Grateful for being able to move my body.

And when my mind runs to catastophize thinking, I usually say out loud a strong "not going there".

 

Things are very hard, but I keep on hanging on to hope ☀️

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Erell

[Longroadhome]

Thinking of you Erell 

you have been so brave really hope this works for you 
sending healing vibes your way 

take care 

 

 

[Erell]

On 7/30/2020 at 6:18 PM, Altostrata said:

You can take little boosters of paroxetine by dipping a toothpick in the liquid. This may help you get over the rough patch.

 Might try this tomorrow morning.

(Feeling highly agitated, loosing ground).

Edited August 17, 2020 by Erell

[Mimi79]

Hi dear Erell,

I’m so sorry you are struggling these days. You are so brave and positive, I’m sure you will get through. I hope your intrusive thoughts are lessening, for me this is far the worst symptom I have! I know our thoughts aren’t fact, but it is so hard to not believe them.

 

You said something in one of your last post: 

« All my requests and needs of reassurance makes me realise that I have a huge work to do before considering going off AD's in the future »

But you have to remember, when we are in bad waves, our thoughts lie to us. They are telling us this big lie that we won’t make it. But when we are feeling better, in windows,  we know that we will make it, we don’t need reassurance anymore. Until the next wave.

 

Je suis certaine que tu vas être capable de te passer d’AD, on a tous nos moments où on se sent comme une petite fille perdue qui a besoin de se faire redire que tout va bien aller. Il ne faut pas trop se fier sur ces moments là  pour juger de notre capacité à vivre sans AD. 

I’m sure you will make it, like everyone else here. We will be able and one day, we gonna be very proud of ourselves! On sabrera le champagne!

 

So take care of you, dear Erell!

 

Anne-Marie

 

 

[sunnysideup69]

@Erell, I'm also thinking that dropping the P will lead you towards stability. 

 

You're doing amazingly well, this hasn't been an easy shift so far. But you've come a LONG way.

Hugs xx

[Erell]

I thank you deeply, your words mean a lot ❤

 

Took a Paroxetine booster this morning with a toothpick.

 

Considerably worsening since few days : I'm now bedbound in terror but with high restlessness / walking into my flat but intense dread as soon as I quit my bed. Need to shake my body. 

Don't manage to distract. "Physiological" terror.

Trying to see these feelings as CNS adjustments work.

 

Could be Paroxetine acute WD/kindling/too much changes in Fluoxetine updose. No way to know.

 

I'm having a really hard time.

Back into acute days exactly one year later.

Battle fatigue.

 

Trying to take it one minute at a time. 

 

Hoping for some relief  ❤

Edited August 18, 2020 by Erell

[Longroadhome]

@Erell

 

as you say there’s no way of knowing . There are three things it could be as you have observed. The good thing is the answer/solution to all three is the same . Hold wait and stabilise. 
maybe it’s time to do this ? 
really rooting for you Erell you’re an inspiration to so many,  a good kind thoughtful person . 
 

read the thread by Mirage . Not on Paxil like us but went up and down on doses initially.  has since stabilised happy and getting on with living . 
 

hold tight. 🌈 
 

 

 

[Cigale]

Oh my dear @Erell - I am holding you in my heart. You do so much for so many, I wish there was more I could do for you. I will keeping hoping with all my heart for your stabilization.

[Rhiannon]

Hello Erell, I have been catching up with your adventures. Sounds like you're going through a tough time now. Just remember, if you can, if you can hang in there you will stabilize, but it can take a while. You have grown so much in wisdom, I probably don't need to tell you anything. But I am thinking of you.

[Erell]

18 minutes ago, Rhiannon said:

Hello Erell, I have been catching up with your adventures. Sounds like you're going through a tough time now. Just remember, if you can, if you can hang in there you will stabilize, but it can take a while. You have grown so much in wisdom, I probably don't need to tell you anything. But I am thinking of you.

 Oh wow ! How nice it is to hear from you 🤗

 

How are you doing ?

 

Well, yes, since Paroxetine stock out I'm living quite an adventure !

 

I'm actually weighting the pros and the cons of a low dose of Diazepam (maybe 1mg).

Not with pleasure. But family have seen me extremely agitated and now want to inpatient me.

I know how things work in France, so the risk is to end with more drugs and heavy amounts.

 

I know too well that there cant be quick fixes, but if Diazepam could alleviate a bit of terror/agitation I could avoid more harm.

 

Well, not a nice place, but I'm trying my best to remain focus on hope

 

I hope you're doing ok 😙

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Erell

[Vegalia]

Hi my dear @Erell

 

So sad to see that it is really difficult for you.  But you are strong. 

 

What help me sometimes with strong agitation and so terrible internal akathisia is to scream and banging on my mattress. Some  people likes punching ball too. But impossible for me with my aches. 

 

Last days I watched  TV shows. (Je  parle de séries, je pense que la traduction n'est pas bonne. Ce sont des séries dans des univers fantastiques.) Very good to change of channel. 

It helped me too.

 

I have written a lot too. 

 

Akathisia and emotional spirals are a little bit less strong. 

 

Courage. Tu es une wonder woman, une vraie !

 

Je t'embrasse. Toutes mes pensées. ❤️

 

L 😘

[Erell]

(Trigger warning)

 

@Altostrata , @Shep :

 

I might try a low dose of Diazepam this evening : in addition to terror and restlessness, I'm feeling rage and the need to knock on something or somebody. Tried to take a walk outside but came back to my flat because I'm too scared to hurt somebody. 

I've never had such thoughts/feelings.

I try to observe and not identify but I think my agitation is too high.

 

I know that SA isn't about adding new drugs but I was wondering if you would accept to help me with a guess about possible dose ? Maybe 0.25mg or 0.5mg ?

 

Trying to protect my life and avoid inpatienting (family wish) which would mean more drugs/harm.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Erell

[brassmonkey]

Hi Erell-- periods of intense rage can be quite terrifying to go through because you feel like you can't trust yourself not to act. Been there, done that quite a lot. At my worst times I found that isolation was the best answer. It never had to last too long, usually several hours, but getting away from everyone and every thing and letting the rage burn itself out in a "safe" location really helped. When isolated it was easier to think about nothing, be totally in the moment and allow the rage burn out and drop away. My rage attacks like this frequently had a build period over several days that would start with some innocuous event that triggers a spiral of thoughts. Those thoughts were barely perceptible and seemed easy to control but would persist and grow over time and get retriggered again and again until they exploded.

 

Over time I learned to recognize the pattern, learned the triggers, and did a lot of changing the channel, walking away from situations and keeping to myself. I had to go through it more times than I would have liked , but over time the rage attacks became weaker and more manageable. I can't downplay the drugs involvement in the situation, because it is a large component, but knowing that helps to gain control. The drugs can weaken our inner strength  and resolve to do whats right for us and cause us to act out, but in the end acting on or displaying the rage is a personal choice that is often not necessary, being an outward expression of our inner fear, frustration and anxiety.

 

Temporary isolation allows us to drop everything and not "feel" while in a safe environment. Dropping the thoughts and feelings allows the body to relax, regroup and center itself. It's similar to self imposed anhedonia, but it goes beyond that. It sound weird, but it is a state of "not thinking about, not thinking about things", just letting the mind and body go blank and letting it think and feel nothing. It's one of those things that can't be taught, only learned. When it happens you'll know it and can remember it so with practice it will grow.

 

It is best to respect rage attacks because the consequences can be far reaching, but don't fear them. We know they are partly caused by our bodies reactions to the drugs, but there is a large component that can come under our control and in time we will rule it.

[Altostrata]

Very low, Erell.

 

Have you seen any changes since you reduced 0.25mg?

[Erell]

19 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Very low, Erell.

 

Have you seen any changes since you reduced 0.25mg?

 

- Before 8 August : anxiety and depression around 6 out of 10. Oscillations : easier moments.

- 8 August : very high restlesness. Mentally and physically agitated. Anxiety around 7 out of 10. 

- Since 15 August : restlesness/anxiety/doom/agitation increase every day. Now at 8/9 out of ten. (Reduced 0.25mg on 16 August)

Symptoms getting worse.

 

About Diazepam  : I resisted the urge for now.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Erell

[Erell]

I feel like I'm loosing ground because of so intense inner restlessness and dread.

 

I try to stay connected by using mindfullness tips and trying to connect with my Breath.

[Altostrata]

My guess is it's too much fluoxetine. I would reduce to 7.25mg.

[Erell]

Just now, Altostrata said:

My guess is it's too much fluoxetine. I would reduce to 7.25mg.

 

Thank you for sharing your guess. 

 

I was thinking it was maybe too much dose changes/kindling. Or acute Paxil WD.

 

So you still think I might succeed this switch despite worsening symptoms ?

I'm in a quite dark place and even if I try my best to not listen to doom thinking I must  confess that I struggle to remain rationnal.

 

[Altostrata]

Fluoxetine takes weeks to ramp up. You might be feeling the effect -- activation -- of the increase to 8mg now. Subsequent decreases haven't brought the blood level of the drug down enough.

[ChessieCat]

 

57 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

My rage attacks like this frequently had a build period over several days that would start with some innocuous event that triggers a spiral of thoughts.

 

Have you seen this topic which BrassMonkey wrote:

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

[Altostrata]

Is it rage or is it irritability?

[Erell]

14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Is it rage or is it irritability?

No rage, no irritability.

 

What I feel is : 

- intrusive thoughts with violent scenarios, and physical feeling of a violent impulse.

- extreme energy/boiling in my body and mind, like I'm about to explode. Overstimulated. Need to jump out of my skin. Feeling like I've drank a thousand coffee (I don't drink cafeine). Surges to escape.

Feeling a need to shake my body/head.

Diarrhea every morning. 

 

I took 0.33mg Diazepam (1 drop) this morning. 

Not proud.

It didn't seem to have any effect.

 

I feel extremely unwell and agitated, inner restlessness without respite. I don't manage to distract or connect with reality. Managed to sleep 3hours. Spend my days between my bed, trying to relax, and my garden walking in circles.

 

I hope strongly this is because I have too much Fluoxetine, it would mean that lowering the dose might give me some relief soon. 🤞

If so, I might see some improvments in a week or so ?

The idea that activation could lower soon makes me feel like I can hanging on.

If it's kindling : lowering the dose could also help ?

 

I'm feeling stupid for not being satisfied with anxiety and depression levels in July. I couldn't How worse it could be. 

 

Oh Altostrata, I know you can't do much for me and you don't have a crystal ball. I'm trying to be brave.

I want to write my Success Story ! 😊

 

Current selfcare :

- take walks outside everytime I feel like I can. While outside, try to focus on the fresh air, the butterflies...

- don't manage to sit still to practice meditation, so I try to practice mindfullness while walking.

- reading a lot success stories on SA

- cold showers/massaging my skin with a fresh water bottle seems to help.

- trying to catch my catastrophising thoughts and replace them with optimist thoughts, or 'rationnal' thoughts.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Erell

[sunnysideup69]

16 hours ago, Erell said:

 

I'm having a really hard time.

Back into acute days exactly one year later.

Battle fatigue.

 

Trying to take it one minute at a time. 

 

Hoping for some relief  ❤

Honestly, @Erell, this was me, this time last year. Had already been struggling for a year, did the switch, felt like I had gone right back to the beginning.

 

It was horrible AND it passed. Lean in here as much as you need.

We're all rooting for you.

 

[Erell]

13 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

 

Have you seen this topic which BrassMonkey wrote:

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Thank you for the reminder ☺

 

I also like Shep's posts about being the Observer and trying to look at symptoms with curiosity.

 

Having a hard time to do it, but still trying ☺

 

@sunnysideup69 : thank you ❤ 

I'm really glad to know that things are getting easier for you, you deserve this relief !

Edited August 19, 2020 by Erell

[ChessieCat]

You're welcome.

 

The good thing is that you know what it is and what is causing it.

[Altostrata]

These bad thoughts came on with the increase in fluoxetine, correct? Good chance a reduction in fluoxetine will help. How much are you taking now? Hang in there.

[Erell]

26 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

These bad thoughts came on with the increase in fluoxetine, correct? Good chance a reduction in fluoxetine will help. How much are you taking now? Hang in there.

 

- I took 7.25mg Fluoxetine this morning. 

+ Paroxetine booster with a toothpick (weird : 1 minute after the toothpick, my body felt calmer for 5minutes.)

 

(Signature updated)

Wondering if I should go to 7mg tomorrow, but also know that my restlessness is making me my mind desperate for illusionnal quick fixes.

 

- Bad thoughts (according to daily notes) : it appeared last 3 days. Concomitant with worsening of restlessness/akathisia.

 

- thank you for the encouragement, greatly appreciate 💞

 

Inner restlessness/tension is so intense.

I have made a mistake, should have stayed at 7.5mg. Little did I know !

Guess this is how we learn our lesson in WD.

 

On a positive note : I'm pacing and shaking my legs so much I might eventually have the legs of an athlete !

Or might not, as it won't last too long 😇

 

[Erell]

45 minutes ago, Erell said:

- Bad thoughts (according to daily notes) : it appeared last 3 days. Concomitant with worsening of restlessness/akathisia.

 @Altostrata more precisely : intense inner restlessness appeared 7 August, worsening since 15 August.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Erell

[Hanna72]

Dear @Erell

7 minutes ago, Erell said:

Paroxetine booster with a toothpick (weird : 1 minute after the toothpick, my body felt calmer for 5minutes.)

Yeb that’s Paxil, powerful isn’t it. 
We are all rooting for you 💪

8 minutes ago, Erell said:

On a positive note : I'm pacing and shaking my legs so much I might eventually have the legs of an athlete !

Or might not, as it won't last too long 😇

There you go, 😊

Hugs dear 💖

[Erell]

Tried a summary. Don't know if it might help. 

Don't manage to watch my situation objectively, maybe you'll see things I don't. 

 

Before switch : 10mg Paroxetine 

Despite lockdown, feeling mostly almost symptom free. Some low anxiety. 8-9 hours sleep.

 

13 April : 10mg Paro + 1mg Fluo

Introduced 1mg Fluoxetine. No effect.

 

14-17 April : 10mg Paro + 1mg Fluo

Some restlessness in legs and arms (evenings), some stimulation (low). 

8-9 hours sleep.

 

18 April-30 April : drop 2mg Paro every 4 days/add 1mg Fluo every 4 days.

From 10mg Paroxetine to 6mg Fluoxetine. 

A bit bumpy, but mild : oscillations between feeling almost symptom free and feeling anxiety + restlessness in legs and arms. 

8-9 hours sleep.

 

2-4 May : strong electricity and dizziness. Disrupted sleep : wake up soaked and in anxiety every hour.

 

5-9 May : reinstate 1mg Paroxetine.

Mild anxiety.

After one day, electricity and dizziness almost disappeared.

After 3 days, back to 8-9 hours sleep.

 

10-28 May : Paroxetine 0.5mg (Alto's suggestion)

Anxiety fades. 8-9 hours sleep. Some nice moments almost normal !

 

22-25 May : stop Paroxetine in order to end the crossover. 

Big spikes of anxiety.

Disrupted sleep, wake up soaked every hours.

 

26 May - 8 June : Reinstate 0.1mg Paroxetine. (Still at 6mg Fluoxetine).

Sleep slowly go back to normal, anxiety slowly decrease.

Back to "almost normal".

 

9 -27 June : drop to 0.06mg Paroxetine (in order to end the crossover). Hard times !

Week 1 : extreme diarrhea, flu like symptoms, exhaustion. Got tested for Covid, tests came back negative.

Week 2 : Better physically. Anxiety increases.

Week 3 : anxiety very high, huge crying spells, doom feelings,  SI.

 

28 June - 13 July : Increase to 7mg Fluoxetine ( + 0.06mg Paroxetine).

Week 1 : deep depression, crying spells.

Week 2 : depression fade, anxiety increase to high.

Cortisol rushes appear. Disrupted sleep.

Oscillations : anxiety and depression low  for 1hour (mostly on evenings) on day 6/8/9/11/15. 

 

14 July- 4 August: Increase to 7.5mg Fluoxetine (trying to reach the sweet spot). Drop Paroxetine to 0.03mg on 24 July.

Struggle with anxiety, depression, doom feelings and intermitent DR. Some surges to escape (mild).

Cortisol rush (only one after 6 hours of sleep).

Oscillations : anxiety and depression low  for 1hour on day 2/3/11/12/13/18. 

 

5 August-8 August : updose Fluoxetine to 8mg (still trying to find the sweet spot).

After 3 days, dread and inner restlessness appear. 

 

9 August-15 August : 7.75mg Fluoxetine. 

From 9 to 14 August : restrestlesness and dread high, with oscillations. 

Sleep : around 5 hours. 

On 15 August : restlessness/ akathisia explode, can't sit still, surges all day. Doom feelings and SI surges. 

 

16 August : stop Paroxetine, take only 7.5mg Fluoxetine 

restlessness/akathisia. No relief.

Some violent thoughts.

Sleep 4 hours.

 

18 August : Same day + toothpick Paroxetine.

Extreme agitation.

 

19 August : 7.25mg + toothpick Paroxetine + 0.33mg Diazepam. 

Extreme agitation.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Erell

[Altostrata]

It appears now you are showing signs of activation from too much fluoxetine.

[Erell]

Ok, Thank you Alto !

 

Good news is activation should lessen with the decrease in dose 🤞

 

Amazing how a small dose can have such an effect. 

Activation can be incredibly strong  : it makes even more sense that we suggest very low dose of reinstatement on SA. 

 

Perhaps this is just a fast track training to become a moderator : get to know every aspect of SSRI's ordeal in order to graduate ! 😅

 

Well, let's say that this activation experience has her own benefit : I've now developed some sense of love for my usual anxiety and depression symptoms 😇

(Note to myself : need to remember that).

 

And a good lesson for my future taper : Fluoxetine is also a strong molecule and also need to be processed very carefully.

Well, had no doubt but as I'm making effort to think positively, I try to find gratitude for every life lesson 😉

Edited August 20, 2020 by Erell

[Altostrata]

Because of fluoxetine's long half-life, it can take several weeks to get to full effect. You are feeling the effects of increases you made since mid-July, plus whatever you've taken since then.