btdt: introducing myself

[btdt]

reading about norepinephrine it is part of effexor and the only part of a drug I have been on that I have not tried alone ... thinking 9 years will be enough of this... but the new PAW posted by Petu says 10 years is the magic number... 

according to this link 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine_reuptake_inhibitor

There are plenty of drugs that raise just norepinephrine... could just get some cocaine I guess or some speed... 

"NRIs are commonly used in the treatment of conditions like ADHD andnarcolepsy due to their psychostimulant effects and in obesity due to theirappetite suppressant effects. They are also frequently used as antidepressantsfor the treatment of major depressive disorder, anxiety and panic disorder. Additionally, many drugs of abuse such as cocaine and methylphenidatepossess NRI activity, though it is important to mention that NRIs without combined dopamine reuptake inhibitor (DRI) properties are not significantly rewarding and hence are considered to have a negligible abuse potential.^[1][2]However, norepinephrine has been implicated as acting synergistically with dopamine when actions on the two neurotransmitters are combined (e.g., in the case of NDRIs) to produce rewarding effects in psychostimulant drugs of abuse.^[3]"

 psychostimulant - 

• Bupropion (Wellbutrin, Zyban) made the list by the way... 

treats laziness... no fatigue...increasingly being used in older adults but has special things to look for cardiac issue blah blah helps memory falls apathy... I think I have apathy... for sure. 

http://www.currentpsychiatry.com/the-publication/past-issue-single-view/psychostimulants-for-older-adults/5c2dd717dbc422547c92e11e0c30ea15.html

 

Since Glenmullen says increase one neurotransmitter is actually increasing others this is like cocaine no.. 

so tho wd from norepinephrine is not talked about I am assuming it is like cocaine or effexor just a guess.. and a no. 

 

 

 

 

 

• Adderall
• Dexedrine
• Dextrostat
• Vyvanse
• Metadate
• Concerta
• Daytrana
• Ritalin
• Methylin (liquid and chewable methylphenidate)
• Quillivant (extended release liquid methylphenidate)
• Focalin (dexmethylphenidate)
• http://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/medication-list#ReadThisNext5

The most commonly used street drugs that fall into this category are cocaine and amphetamines.

[btdt]

Any doctors in the house what do you think of this ultra sound.... 

 

FINDINGS:
To the right of midline near the spinous process at the level of concern? L3, there is a oblong hypoechoic band of solid tissue which tapers at each end and measures 19 x 2x 10 mm.  It is located within a fibrous band directly beneath the subcutaneous adipose tissue and anterior to the underlying muscle. 
There is some localized thickening of the fibrous  band at this location causing compression of the underlying muscle. It is avascular. 


Opinion:


Probably benign mesenchymal tissue possibly a lipofibroma formed within the fibrous tissue, perhaps within a tear.  It could be a sequelae of a previous hematoma. Did the patient ever have a direct blow to the back in this location.

 

My back drives me mad keeps me up a lot at night moving my one leg this way and that rubbing on crap and usually taking a T3 to get any sleep at all which is usually not enough. 

 

So there it is... 

I think it means there is something they don't know what on my back .. it is solid has no blood flow is under the skin maybe deeply and on a muscle maybe.... compressing it... 

 

what do you think?  

I suspected my doc would do some sort of follow up to find out what it is exactly but she did not suggest anything.

[btdt]

I have a revolving digestive problem when it hits I cannot eat a bite and I am in it now... my answer so far is ensure and stop eating for a time. 

 

Along with it I get so I can't think well and negative mean feelings things fly out of my mouth and I swear to God I was not even thinking them... poor thought and impulse control perhaps but more problematic for me is the feeling of loss of awareness over my own actions thoughts... I feel completely removed from reality.  This is scaring the **** out of me as if feels crazy. I am wondering if it is a reaction to the T3 I can't recall if I was taking it when all of this started or not.  

[btdt]

Neural Sensitization: The Medical Key to Treatment of Chemical Injury (pg 3) Biochemical Vicious Cycle

•  Neural sensitization occurs by excess inducible nitric oxide.³ This can result from exposure to irritants and/or particle exposure³ and from other chemicals as discussed below.
• Neural sensitization can also occur by excess activity of brain and nerve cell NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate), which then increases brain and other organ (inducible) nitric oxide (NO). ^8,16,17
• When this nitric oxide is increased, especially chronic or repeatedly, free radicals are formed from the vicious biochemical cycle set in motion. Free radicals are substances that damage body cells and organs.¹⁸ This cycle is shown in the chemical diagram on page 13.

Below is a detailed discussion of the vicious cycle along with the substances medically documented to control it. This forms the scientific basis for treatment. For more treatment details refer to PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR TREATING CHEMICAL INJURY (being revised).

Inducible Nitric Oxide

The cycle begins with inducible nitric oxide (iNOS).^1,3,4 Bioactive B12 works well for reducing excess iNOS.^19,20 Methylcobalamin is a bioactive form and more neurocalming than hydroxocobalamin. Cyanocobalamin should not be used.

Nitric oxide also damages the first detoxification step,²¹ allowing chemicals and many drugs to build up more in the body. This further increases inflammation.

Exhaled nitric oxide is a medically accepted marker of airway inflammation.⁴ Excess nitric oxide impairsthe body’s energy capacity¹³ and can cause death of energy structures (mitochondria).¹³ These mitochondrial changes can lead to fatigue.

Mitochondria are structures in body cells that generate energy by producing ATP. Mitochondrial damage has been documented in the vast majority of patients with chronic illness from chemical injury.²² This is a major cause of their fatigue.

When nitric oxide is increased too much, there can be a decrease in body defense antioxidants such as SOD (superoxide dismutase), catalase and glutathione peroxidase.²³ Healing substances are needed to help these body protections function better.²⁴

Peroxynitrite Free Radicals

Inducible nitric oxide forms a tissue damaging free radical known as peroxynitrite.^2,8,25,26 This then forms even more nitric oxide. See diagram for biochemical details.

Peroxynitrite is a highly potent free radical that damages proteins,¹³ including enzymes, lipids (brain and cell walls), mitochondrial (energy producing) membranes, ribosomal (protein making) membranes, cell messaging membranes (RNA, etc.) and genetic (DNA) membranes.²⁷ Peroxynitrite weakens the blood-brain barrier, allowing chemicals to enter the brain more readily.

This vicious cycle with increased nitric oxide and peroxynitrite can cause brain cell death and neurodegenerative disease.^{8,13,26,29-32}

Antioxidants such as high gamma Vitamin E (tocopherols) reduce peroxynitrite damage in lipid membranes.^33,34 In different cell organ locations, glutathione,  Vitamin C (ascorbic acid),^14,38 and alpha lipoic acid^39,40 also help protect against these effects. For glutathione function, the body needs selenium^24,41,42 and Vitamin B2 43,44 to help heal damage.

Superoxide Free Radicals

Superoxide free radical reacts with nitric oxide, which then increases peroxynitrite. Excess superoxide can damage the mitochondria (energy production) and other body cells. Superoxide is reduced by the body’s protective enzyme system, SOD (superoxide dismutase). SOD needs minerals zinc, copper andmanganese (in proper ratio) to function.^24,45,46

Damage to Mitochondria/Energy Structures

Peroxynitrite damages mitochondria and thus also depletes energy ATP,^1,13,47 which then further increases sensitization by excess action of NMDA.^32,48 Lack of adequate mitochondrial antioxidants damages the mitochondria and forms more peroxynitrite.⁴⁹

The mitochondria need adequate nutrients to function well to help stop the vicious cycle. These includethiamine, niacin, pantothenate and biotin^24,50-53 as well as coenzyme Q10^40,54-56 and acetylcarnitine.^57-60 Chromium helps glucose enter the cell to be burned for energy, reducing diabetic risk and hunger cravings/obesity. Adequate omega-3 essential fats (EPA/DHA) also helps reduce insulin resistance,^61,62thus helping glucose enter the cell to generate energy.

NMDA (N-methyl-D aspartate) Receptor

NMDA is a neuroexcitation receptor.¹⁸ When activated, it increases nitric oxide, peroxynitrite, and other free radicals. ^13,63,64

Magnesium calms the NMDA overactivation.^65-67 Magnesium is further depleted by body acidity caused by inflammation.²⁴

Pyridoxal phosphate B6 helps form GABA,⁶⁸ and taurine supports GABA⁶⁹ and is neurocalming,⁷⁰reducing NMDA adverse effects.

SUMMARY OF NEURAL SENSITIZATION

Neural sensitization thus involves self-perpetuating excess brain/nerve cell neuroexcitationresponse to further chemical exposure.^71,72 Since nerve cells communicate with all body organs, increased inflammation can involve many organs. This can cause hyperactivity in children and a feeling of being “wired” in all ages, despite fatigue, as well as other changes discussed above.

Antioxidant function in general is usually reduced in chemically ill patients,²² and increased lipid peroxides and other damaging free radicals are common.⁷³ These cause ongoing damage if not corrected by the above medical treatment and environmental controls.

Without adequate antioxidant protection, there is increased risk of inflammation and degenerative diseases, lung damage,^74,75 and other organ injury.

The vicious cycle must therefore be interrupted to the maximum extent feasible. Symptoms of sensitization “reactions” are warnings that other more silent toxic-induced organ damage of the liver, pancreas, immune system, adrenals, mitochondria, and other organs can be also occurring.^22,73,77 Thus masking/blocking symptoms of these cycles by drugs is not recommended because it allows silent damage and patient deterioration. It does not heal the disturbed biochemical mechanism. This is like turning off the battery warning light without fixing the battery.

For effective treatment, the frequency of intake of ingredients must be adequate to CONTINUALLY interrupt the biochemical vicious cycle. Also, interruption in taking protocol ingredients significantly delays the ability to interrupt the biochemical cycle.

Medical References (footnotes)--Neural Sensitization: The Key to Medical Treatment

Next page: Pg 4 - Chemical Causes

[btdt]

I taking Natural factors mixed vit E and looking to make a supplement shopping list glutathione selenium and 

Pantothenic acid 

 

[btdt]

GiaK, on 11 Jul 2014 - 2:37 PM, said:

 

from David Healy's withdrawal guide...he doesn't understand the potential extent of it (and I do not recommend the drugs he suggests), but this is interesting...

 

Quote

Having said this, SRI dependence and withdrawal does involve real bowel disturbances 

from diarrhea through to food intolerance that are difficult to see just as a vigilance 

problem and there is much more serotonin in the gut and muscles than anywhere else. 

 

Stabilizing the histamine system - 1 

The SRIs are a group of antihistamine drugs that also inhibit serotonin reuptake. Despite 

marketing propaganda, they are not selective or clean drugs. 
 

One way to manage withdrawal might be to switch to an SRI antihistamine such as 

chlorphenamine or diphenhydramine. These are less potent SRIs and switching to them is 

a way to slowly reduce the dose. 
 

A related option here is to switch to a tricyclic antidepressant such as dosulepin which is 

also an antihistamine with less potent serotonin reuptake inhibiting properties. 

The best way to think about this is that the SSRIs are like sports cars that can pick up pace 

incredibly quickly but a car like this isn’t needed in a town or a city. The amount of 

serotonin and reuptake inhibition from dosulepin or chlorphenamine is all that is really 

needed for most situations. 
 

There are other antihistamines that do not inhibit serotonin reuptake such as loratadine or 

cetirizine that might be useful if withdrawal comes more from histamine than serotonin. 

 

Stabilizing the histamine system - 2 

A further option on the antihistamine front is to view serotonin withdrawal as a histamine 

over-activity (semi- allergic) state brought around by the fact that the person has been on 

antihistamines chronically. 
 

One of the ways to damp down histamine over activity is to use a mast cell stabiliser such 

as sodium chromoglycate. Sodium chromoglycate (Nalcrom) is used extensively for people 

with food intolerance – a complaint that many people with SRI withdrawal have. 
 

The histamine system can be further damped by adding a H2 receptor blocker such as 

cimetidine or ranitidine. 
 

Cinnarizine is an antihistamine that is also a calcium channel blocker. 

 

 

 

Could this still be my issue is this why 2 different docs in 2 wks have been suggesting drugs that ultimately will lower histamine... some of them are psych.  

 

I think I would rather chance a probiotic that lowers histamine. 

 

Thiamine Vit B1 lowers histamine in the brain 

Increased neuronal histamine in thiamine-deficient rats

It is the opposite of what was stated in the first article above thiamine and histamine do not dwell together thiamine will kick histamine out of the brain...

 

Histamine levels in thiamine deficient rats were significantly lower in the hippocampus, amygdala, olfactory bulb, thalamus and pons-medulla oblongata than those of normal and pair-fed groups. In the case of the hypothalamus, thiamine deficiency produced a significant increase in histamine levels. These changes observed in the thiamine deficient group were reversed to the normal levels by supplying the normal diet. These data present a new finding that thiamine deficiency affects the central histaminergic neuron system as well as other monoaminergic systems

[btdt]

Something to consider

http://alisonvickery.com.au/the-anti-depressant-brain-fog-and-histamine-intolerance-connection/

Professor Healy’s protocol for withdrawal of SRIs, predominantly includes tapering off with anti-histamines and mast-cell stabilisers, to continue to compensate for this dis-equilibrium in the anti-histamine system.

It is interesting to also note that anecdotally people who have been on anti-depressants, and have severe adverse reactions, report that have a lifelong increased sensitivity to pharmaceutical drugs. That is, whilst they may be able to withdraw from anti-depressant medication, the introduction of new medication, will often see a return of their old withdrawal symptoms. This suggests a pervasive destabilisation of the histamine system in some individuals.

Brain Fog

Brain fog (or mental fog, meta–memory, or chemo-brain) is common with histamine intolerance.

I have had the opportunity to have a detailed discussion and private correspondence with Professor Healy on the connection of brain fog to prescription medication (and indeed SSRIs, statins, fluoroquinolone, antibiotics, and other drugs).

Interestingly, Professor Healy concludes that brain fog is caused by muscle memory disruption. That is; brain fog is not in all in the mind, but actually in the muscle.

This hypothesis is founded on the fact that brain fog is often accompanied by myalgia, that many drugs interfere with muscles, and the research into statin drugs where “it is conceded for example that the statin group of drugs can cause severe cognitive problems, up to apparent dementia levels, routine testing of patients on cognitive function tests for the statin group of drugs shows no problems as such.”

He goes on to state:

“This means that things that should be happening routinely that depend to some extent on muscle memory aren’t happening in the same way. This leads the person to have to concentrate harder than ever but despite this they still make mistakes and figure that clearly their memory isn’t as good as it should be. However at the same time cognitive function testing if undertaken is highly likely to come out as normal because the person’s brain is in fact normal.”

The solution? Professor Healy recommends to be physically and mentally active to refashion nerve endings.

“Activities such as walking or swimming may be helpful specifically if undertaken in a graded program that ensure there is daily activity and over time builds the activity levels up.” and ” To adopt, if possible, the same approach that people who have muscle memory problems for example take to playing the piano after an injury to an arm or hand – the advice is to get back playing if you can and evolve by sheer dint of practice another set of memories that will help make functioning smoother.”

Genetic Tolerance

Professor Healy’s “Guide to Stopping Anti-depressants” also states:

“A small number of people have a severe “toxic” reaction to SSRIs with neurological and other features often starting within days of starting treatment. The after-effects may endure for months or years. These drugs in the doses they are usually given are grossly overpowered. It’s like a huge articulated truck traveling down a stone-walled country lane.”

Whilst Professor Healy does not expand on this point, I want to make the point, that a simple life-long DNA Dose test can tell your bio-individual genetic response to anti-depressants. It is my personal believe that every individual prior to being given anti-depressants, due to its withdrawal legacy, should be given this test.

Professor Les Sheffield, from DNA Dose, concludes that only 50% of people have a normal response to anti-depressant medication, 40% of people need their dosage adjusted, and 10% of people are unable to metabolise medication. This means that it may not be the medication, so much as the dose, and the ability to detoxify or methylate it, that may be important for histamine intolerance.

Conclusion

Withdrawal syndrome from psychotropic medications is extremely complicated and should be done under medical supervision. As an aside, Professor Healy runs an e-clinc, where he consults on the prescription, and withdrawal of psychotropic medication.

My purpose in sharing this information is not to make recommendations in relation to anti-depressants but to cross-pollinate Professor Healy’s observations in relation to histamine intolerance.

In the context of my own healing from histamine intolerance Professor Healy’s observations appear extremely relevant.

I have had histamine intolerance all my life, but developed mast cell activation disorder, when put onCYP450 mediated (and in particular CYP2D6 related medication).

When I started this histamine intolerance healing journey my brain fog was so bad, that I could barely speak in a full sentence, could not read more than a paragraph, and could not remember basic information. That has gradually resolved by continuing to engage physically and mentally and not let my brain fog get the better of me. Reversal is slow but it is reversal. I will shortly write more about what has worked for me.

My histamine intolerance is now in remission. I have done this through diet and not medication.

There is a current theory, that mast-cell stabilisers, may in time reboot a hysterical, de-stabilised, histamine system. By standing down the histamine system, it stops hyper-responding, and histamine intolerance resolves. This theory is consistent with Professor Healy’s protocol. It is also my immunologist’s in relation to mast-cell activation disorder.

Personally, I tolerate so few medications, I have really had to use lifestyle medication, rather than prescription medication. Equally, for some of my clients, particularly those who tolerate so few foods to use food as medicine, mast-cell stabilisers have been their turning point. In the end this is a personal decision.

[btdt]

Just for future reference:

 

Tips for tapering off Tramadol

 

hint, hint, hint.

I am thinking I won't be needing it... at some point a rat has to stand up and say no more... squeak squeak.... looking for some cheese

[btdt]

I had another run in with tomato after being tested and being told I do not have a tomato allergy.  So now tomato is my enemy... time before this I had pain in my chest not just mouth blisters so the heck with them I am done with tomato. I no longer care if I have a "real" allergy or a reactive whatever... they make me sick.  I must't say I do crave things with tomato sauce like pasta pizza who doesn't. 

 

Suddenly things I have waited on for months are coming to the forefront surgery for the two hernias are in the offing now I don't know that I want to do it... I want it done I just don't want the pain the chances I am taking with the drugs I will need. 

 

There is another surgery breast reduction not sure of that either... seems the pain I have could be helped by this surgery... but it is only on one side a true breast weight problem would be on both sides don't you think?  

 

Seems all my ill can be cut and sewn away, well some of them they say. 

 

I do wonder if either surgery would help that much would it be worth the cost the risk. I truly can't decide maybe I need more information and a look at the alternatives.. I keep seeking. 

 

I think there is something more wrong in the chest shoulder area that has not been found as of yet as the hernia doc said repairing the hernias would not help my pain...maybe he is wrong. 

 

I am accustom to second guessing doctors at this point and it makes choices like this extremely difficult. 

[btdt]

When I was looking at tomato causing mouth blisters some people said that lysine will stop this and I don't know if it is true .. but will look so far B1 lowers histamine maybe lysine does too. 

 

lysine

Lysine has anxiolytic action through its effects on serotonin receptors in the intestinal tract, and is also hypothesized to reduce anxiety through serotonin regulation in the amygdala.^[37] One study on rats^[38] showed that overstimulation of the 5-HT4 receptors in the gut are associated with anxiety-induced intestinal pathology. Lysine, acting as a serotonin antagonist and therefore reducing the overactivity of these receptors, reduced signs of anxiety and anxiety-induced diarrhea in the sample population. Another study showed that lysine deficiency leads to a pathological increase in serotonin in the amygdala, a brain structure that is involved in emotional regulation and the stress response

 

nothing there about lysine helping allergic reactions but if the mouth blisters were caused by herpies it may help that. 

[btdt]

pondering this 

 

http://kungfu-guide.com/addendum/addendum.html

[btdt]

metabolic syndrome and choline

http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/blogs/supplement-perspectives/2013/10/sounding-the-choline-alarm.aspx

 

SSRI antidepressant drugs and their role
Obesity, dyslipidemia, and diabetes with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors: the Hordaland Health Study.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2006. Raeder MB, Bjelland I, Emil Vollset S, Steen VM. Einar Martens' Research Group for Biological Psychiatry, Center for Medical Genetics and Molecular Medicine, Helse Bergen HF, Norway. 
This study aimed to examine whether subjects taking selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors SSRI drugs are more likely to have elements of the metabolic syndrome compared with those taking no psychotropic drugs. For comparison, we also studied subjects taking antipsychotic drugs. We used data from The Hordaland Health Study '97-'99, a general community cross-sectional health survey including 25,315 subjects aged 40 to 49 and 70 to 74 years. For the groups studied, we estimated prevalence and odds ratios for obesity, hypercholesterolemia, low high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, hyper-triglyceridemia, and diabetes. We have shown that use of at least some SSRIs is associated with clinical and biochemical elements of the metabolic syndrome. Our data indicate differences in the metabolic side effect profile among various SSRI drugs, although treatment bias might have influenced these results. We suggest that patients taking SSRIs be carefully monitored for obhttp://www.raysahelian.com/metabolicsyndromex.htmlesity and dyslipidemia.

http://www.raysahelian.com/metabolicsyndromex.html

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

'Scuse me for butting in but the info at your initial link above was far more interesting, I (and others) already know ssri/snri are likely to make you big as a house and gift you with diabetes to boot (bonus!) but its the choline stuff that was really of interest:

 

Quote:

 

"I have been on the bandwagon for returning egg yolks to the diet for over 15 years. It all started when I worked with athletes who were having trouble with mood and mental focus. At that time I went into the neurobiology literature and discovered that the essential B vitamin, choline, played two very important functions in the body (among others that I’ll get to below).

 

First, choline is half of the most abundant neurotransmitter in the body, acetylcholine. Acetylcholine works every time we think or move, which is profoundly important. Choline, as part of the phospholipid complex phosphatidylcholine, in partnership with phosphatidylserine, is required to create the channels in brain cell membranes that allow for nutrients to pass in and toxins to pass out. So choline is essential for healthy brain function, memory, how you feel, and how you think."

 

Sorry, can't quote from phone.

 

What gets me is they do all these bs studies and say good stuff is bad for you. Then the purveyors of said stuff finally get THEIR study saying oh no our stuff is GOOD FOR YOU.

 

Check out the entertaining vid in my thread today.

 

I just don't believe studies any more and you should think about doing the same thing. Studies won't get you better but good stuff in moderation will. You can't eat a study or ride it around town.

 

Bah on studies I say.

 

(Sorry for that, uh not really.....)

[btdt]

When I ate two boiled eggs a day I did feel better I can't say it was the choline... maybe something else in the eggs or less food in general I did check your link today and read about your mother... then I kind of tuned out a bit.  Today is the 20th anniversary of my mothers death and a long wkend to boot... here in Canada.  I was reminded of many things reading your thread ... about my mother a lot of drug things I wish I had known then but didn't.  What we don't know can hurt us so I was busy just now trying to learn some things.. from this link I want to keep... 

 

https://isepp.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/gracepresentation.pdf

 

at the end of it there is a list of things to heal the brain no choline in sight... lol

[btdt]

Neural Sensitization: The Medical Key to Treatment of Chemical Injury (pg 3) Biochemical Vicious Cycle

•  Neural sensitization occurs by excess inducible nitric oxide.³ This can result from exposure to irritants and/or particle exposure³ and from other chemicals as discussed below.
• Neural sensitization can also occur by excess activity of brain and nerve cell NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate), which then increases brain and other organ (inducible) nitric oxide (NO). ^8,16,17
• When this nitric oxide is increased, especially chronic or repeatedly, free radicals are formed from the vicious biochemical cycle set in motion. Free radicals are substances that damage body cells and organs.¹⁸ This cycle is shown in the chemical diagram on page 13.

Below is a detailed discussion of the vicious cycle along with the substances medically documented to control it. This forms the scientific basis for treatment. For more treatment details refer to PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR TREATING CHEMICAL INJURY (being revised).

Inducible Nitric Oxide

The cycle begins with inducible nitric oxide (iNOS).^1,3,4 Bioactive B12 works well for reducing excess iNOS.^19,20 Methylcobalamin is a bioactive form and more neurocalming than hydroxocobalamin. Cyanocobalamin should not be used.

Nitric oxide also damages the first detoxification step,²¹ allowing chemicals and many drugs to build up more in the body. This further increases inflammation.

Exhaled nitric oxide is a medically accepted marker of airway inflammation.⁴ Excess nitric oxide impairsthe body’s energy capacity¹³ and can cause death of energy structures (mitochondria).¹³ These mitochondrial changes can lead to fatigue.

Mitochondria are structures in body cells that generate energy by producing ATP. Mitochondrial damage has been documented in the vast majority of patients with chronic illness from chemical injury.²² This is a major cause of their fatigue.

When nitric oxide is increased too much, there can be a decrease in body defense antioxidants such as SOD (superoxide dismutase), catalase and glutathione peroxidase.²³ Healing substances are needed to help these body protections function better.²⁴

Peroxynitrite Free Radicals

Inducible nitric oxide forms a tissue damaging free radical known as peroxynitrite.^2,8,25,26 This then forms even more nitric oxide. See diagram for biochemical details.

Peroxynitrite is a highly potent free radical that damages proteins,¹³ including enzymes, lipids (brain and cell walls), mitochondrial (energy producing) membranes, ribosomal (protein making) membranes, cell messaging membranes (RNA, etc.) and genetic (DNA) membranes.²⁷ Peroxynitrite weakens the blood-brain barrier, allowing chemicals to enter the brain more readily.

This vicious cycle with increased nitric oxide and peroxynitrite can cause brain cell death and neurodegenerative disease.^{8,13,26,29-32}

Antioxidants such as high gamma Vitamin E (tocopherols) reduce peroxynitrite damage in lipid membranes.^33,34 In different cell organ locations, glutathione,  Vitamin C (ascorbic acid),^14,38 and alpha lipoic acid^39,40 also help protect against these effects. For glutathione function, the body needs selenium^24,41,42 and Vitamin B2 43,44 to help heal damage.

Superoxide Free Radicals

Superoxide free radical reacts with nitric oxide, which then increases peroxynitrite. Excess superoxide can damage the mitochondria (energy production) and other body cells. Superoxide is reduced by the body’s protective enzyme system, SOD (superoxide dismutase). SOD needs minerals zinc, copper andmanganese (in proper ratio) to function.^24,45,46

Damage to Mitochondria/Energy Structures

Peroxynitrite damages mitochondria and thus also depletes energy ATP,^1,13,47 which then further increases sensitization by excess action of NMDA.^32,48 Lack of adequate mitochondrial antioxidants damages the mitochondria and forms more peroxynitrite.⁴⁹

The mitochondria need adequate nutrients to function well to help stop the vicious cycle. These includethiamine, niacin, pantothenate and biotin^24,50-53 as well as coenzyme Q10^40,54-56 and acetylcarnitine.^57-60 Chromium helps glucose enter the cell to be burned for energy, reducing diabetic risk and hunger cravings/obesity. Adequate omega-3 essential fats (EPA/DHA) also helps reduce insulin resistance,^61,62thus helping glucose enter the cell to generate energy.

NMDA (N-methyl-D aspartate) Receptor

NMDA is a neuroexcitation receptor.¹⁸ When activated, it increases nitric oxide, peroxynitrite, and other free radicals. ^13,63,64

Magnesium calms the NMDA overactivation.^65-67 Magnesium is further depleted by body acidity caused by inflammation.²⁴

Pyridoxal phosphate B6 helps form GABA,⁶⁸ and taurine supports GABA⁶⁹ and is neurocalming,⁷⁰reducing NMDA adverse effects.

SUMMARY OF NEURAL SENSITIZATION

Neural sensitization thus involves self-perpetuating excess brain/nerve cell neuroexcitationresponse to further chemical exposure.^71,72 Since nerve cells communicate with all body organs, increased inflammation can involve many organs. This can cause hyperactivity in children and a feeling of being “wired” in all ages, despite fatigue, as well as other changes discussed above.

Antioxidant function in general is usually reduced in chemically ill patients,²² and increased lipid peroxides and other damaging free radicals are common.⁷³ These cause ongoing damage if not corrected by the above medical treatment and environmental controls.

Without adequate antioxidant protection, there is increased risk of inflammation and degenerative diseases, lung damage,^74,75 and other organ injury.

The vicious cycle must therefore be interrupted to the maximum extent feasible. Symptoms of sensitization “reactions” are warnings that other more silent toxic-induced organ damage of the liver, pancreas, immune system, adrenals, mitochondria, and other organs can be also occurring.^22,73,77 Thus masking/blocking symptoms of these cycles by drugs is not recommended because it allows silent damage and patient deterioration. It does not heal the disturbed biochemical mechanism. This is like turning off the battery warning light without fixing the battery.

For effective treatment, the frequency of intake of ingredients must be adequate to CONTINUALLY interrupt the biochemical vicious cycle. Also, interruption in taking protocol ingredients significantly delays the ability to interrupt the biochemical cycle.

Medical References (footnotes)--Neural Sensitization: The Key to Medical Treatment

Next page: Pg 4 - Chemical Causes

 

⁴ Bioactive B12 works well for reducing excess iNOS.^19,20 Methylcobalamin is a bioactive form and more neurocalming than hydroxocobalamin. Cyanocobalamin should not be used.

 

Antioxidants such as high gamma Vitamin E (tocopherols)

 

glutathione,  Vitamin C (ascorbic acid),^14,38 and alpha lipoic acid

 

 For glutathione function, the body needs selenium^24,41,42 and Vitamin B2 43,44 to help heal damage.

 

 These includethiamine, niacin, pantothenate and biotin^24,50-53 as well as coenzyme Q10^40,54-56 and acetylcarnitine.^57-60 Chromium helps glucose enter the cell to be burned for energy, reducing diabetic risk and hunger cravings/obesity. Adequate omega-3 essential fats (

 

Magnesium calms the NMDA overactivation.^65-67 Magnesium is further depleted by body acidity caused by inflammation.²⁴

Pyridoxal phosphate B6 helps form GABA,⁶⁸ and taurine supports GABA⁶⁹ and is neurocalming,⁷⁰reducing NMDA adverse effects.

SUMMARY OF NEURAL SENSITIZATION

 

I just bought  glutathione selenium and 

Pantothenic acid  I had already taurine Vit E Q10 niacin magnesium fish oil lysine alpha lipoic acid... a few different types of B12 all forms of D3 B6 B2 Vit C and many others... 

 

I started taking a few of these consistently and added lysine after the last mouth blister from eating tomato that tested neg on allergy test last wk... thought try lysine see if it helps... 

 

I have been taking 

Selenium 100mg

Glutathione 250mg

Vit E 400mg

Vit B1 

Magnesium ( bits of a 300mg mag citrate as always) 

Pantothenic Acid 250mg 

 

after the blister in my mouth again from eating tomato I added lysine 1000 broken into 4 bits one bit a day... 

 

Sexual feeling returned one day it has happened before and left just as fast sometimes it has come on like a lightening strike only to disappear just as fast.  I am not sure what in the mix here could account for it I think Area 1255 did mention lysine... I am not sure if that is right. 

 

I think I am thinking better but I did leave a pot on the stove yesterday for a couple hours turned on so I could be wrong... a brain is a terrible thing to lose and I am going to eat whatever I need to ... to help keep mine. 

 

While sexual feeling is a very big deal it is not my prime focus here cognitive/neurological/metabolic issues are my number one priority. 

 

More to buy.... 

 

Biotin

Acetylcarnitine

Chromium

 

I need to check my B12 to see if I have the right one.

 

After reading this https://isepp.files....resentation.pdf and knowing how I feel and think... I cannot afford to fool with this and just wait any longer. 

peace all

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Btdt,

 

Enough with the studies! They are not a reliable guide to good health at all. For instance, you say you are taking 100mg Selenium.

 

SELENIUM IS A TRACE MINERAL NEEDED BY THE BODY AND IS MEASURED IN MICROGRAMS WHICH IS A VERY TINY DOSE.

 

Too much and you are actually causing yourself harm.

 

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Selenium-HealthProfessional/

 

You are stuffing so much garbage into your brain that is clouding the issue. You cannot use supplements to get well no matter how much you think it will work. The body is meant to exist on FOOD not chemicals, it's your diet you need to concentrate on. Using supplements is likely to cause more problems and you never will feel better.

 

Some people just get those mouth ulcers when they consume acidic foods, you are confusing cause and effect sometimes because some people get them and don't eat the acid foods.

 

Eat nutricious food in a balanced diet. Drink at least 8 oz water a day, don't go nuts on the water. Walk outside (or crawl or shuffle or sit and move your arms and legs like you are swimming) but for goodess sake do it every day for at least 30 minutes. Lie in bed 8 hours each day at the same time and rest.

 

Get off that computer and go on a fast from looking stuff up. Knowledge is not what is needed, it is action. Good old fashioned self care.

 

What does nike say? Just Do It.

 

The supplement manufacturers and purveyors are good for little else but emptying your wallet. How about trying food? Even processed food is better than artificial supplements.

 

So maybe you should try the diet my mom has been on for the last few years? Diet 7up, coffee, dole fruit cups, pepperidge farm cinnamon raisin bread, 'i cant believe its not butter' spread, TOOTSIE ROLLS, potato chips, arby's roast beef, wendy's chili, chicken lo mein, domino's wings, dairy queen plain cheese burgers, and very occasionally will she eat some canned beets, cottage cheese and campbells vegetable soup. Oh and club crackers, she loves them.

 

91 1/2 and still mean as a snake (to me, not strangers). But it's FOOD, even though there are probably chemicals in there that gourmands would shun, dieticians too. But it's FOOD.

 

Sorry for the rant. You may not realize it but on this site we have all the knowledge aready on how to survive wd syndrome, adding more in the way of arcane old studies is not as good as dropping a friendly note of support on someone's thread which you do very well. Maybe more of that and less copy and paste? It will help you feel better too, trust me. I really liked that story you told me about the bird, those things are precious. I don't give a rat's patootie about studies, schmuddies. Not after I've seen what I've seen, all the cheating in the world of academia. I would not trust a study nowadays to even be enough to burn the paper to keep me warm.

[btdt]

lol CW you do make me laugh... and the supplements are helping me.. they really are. 

 

Some I had earmarked already B1 for thinking when I go off the rails... for instance mag in tiny low doses taurine for times I feel like I have had too much coffee... those I have known for years now. I have done a lot of things to try to recover a LOT of things I am sure if they said to swing a cat by it's tail and sing naked on public beach would stop this I would have done both by now... I tried a lot of things some made me worse some did nothing.

 

This time around I am dealing with chemical sensitivity and some of the supplements are to help mcs... they seem to be a lot the same as some other sites have suggested.  It is not just the Ad type drugs I have take it is many drugs the one that caused annaphylactic  reaction the drugs taken to treat that.. pain pills.  For a long long time I can't get out from under these reactions to perfumes of all sorts it just gets worse. I have tried this for a couple wks now... bit hit and miss with the tomato reaction I shuffled some around a bit. They are helping me they really are I don't know for how long or if they will turn on me... I can't say anything other then they are helping me right now. 

 

Today I drank a beer... I did the entire beer.. first one in a long long long time. I don't know why.. yes I do I was to go to a bday dinner out of town and the cab was so late I missed the bus.. that was enough I guess I just had enough and turned to beer... oddly enough it did not make me sick not yet and it did not affect me much last beer I could not drink even half I was dizzy and messed up. 

 

So there you have it... so far. I will keep you posted. the link with the suggested drugs came from a link Muddles sent to me on multiple chemical sensitivities. Some of it is the same as we see here... 

 

I am in no way suggesting anyone else should try any of this I am being a lab rat once again and I got here out of desperation... I will let you know how it goes. 

 

I have done all sorts of diets probiotics fasting walking meditating 8 and a half years worth CW that is a long old time to wait.. I am trying this for now.  It may bite me I know that.. if and when it does I will stop.. and I will tell you all about it.

 

I still eat maybe not as colourful a diet as your dear Mom but I do eat real food all the time except for when I can't eat which isn't too often lately. It does happen sometimes for unexplained reasons that can't be found. Your Mom and I have beets in common

 

 

I wish you peace... 

[btdt]

I had a strange sensation go up my back to the back of my head when I was drinking beer... not sure I ever had that before. 

likely nothing if I ever have another beer I will watch for it

sexual feeling returned but the headache that come from sex did not go away... sucks 

peace all

[btdt]

still have not read it got side tracked tonight.. so here it is so I don't lose it again

 

Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness that is more advanced than the primitive awareness that insects have. Being conscious is also being aware of something within oneself, such as ideas and thoughts.

It gets muddied when using drugs and wd from them.  I wrote this a long time ago and for some reason maybe good sense... I can't read it today.  It was a long time ago and just now I am feeling less reflective and stable than I would need to be to read it.  I have always felt this was really important and it could be drivel you can be he judge I lost it for a long time and found it again today since I do not want to lose it again here it is ...at SA. 

peace 

 

Consciousness and Effexor (Antidepressants)

 

I am always searching. Night and day I am looking for an explanation. In the beginning I was looking for a cure as my life was out of control I was sick , constantly sick. In body in mind and in spirit. It was all incompassing there was no escape. Doctors I seen offered medication most did not work many made me worse. On the advice of devine intervention or a hallucination I am not sure which I quit taking all medications and let nature take its course. When I did this I was quite prepared to die as I had suffered long and hard there was no fight left in me. Surrender was the choice of last resort and I had made that choice. I obviously did not die.

Today I wanted to put down my thoughts about consciousness and how it is connected to the disconnection of self by the use of antidepressants. I think only a person who has done battle with these drugs for 18 years and has been searching and collecting information for almost as long could join these dots. I am that person. While I realize most of the paths I have searched come up empty there is this underlying connection with consciousness I see. I would like to gather my thoughts on this now and put them in one place.

I have read and reread a book called The Power of Now. I think only people like myself who have completely trashed their life to the point that there is really nothing left but people you have disillusioned mostly family who feel a responsibility to see to your well being and of course doctors who I have discounted as a source of help. Only people in this state with no money no life and very little to hold onto could find the NOW such and important part of their lives. The past is generally where a person of my age has built security nurtured relationships that will sustain them in their future. I have none of this so my future is very questionable hence the importance of the Now to me and other

individuals who have been damaged the same way. As usual it is difficult to stay focused not because of the current residual damage to my brain if there is any but because the intensity of this trip has been such that a undercurrent of emotion and traumatic memories pull me away from the NOW and into the past. This has been and remains my constant struggle to remain in the present time and deal with content that I wish to focus on. Bear with me as I am trying to make this as concise as I am able but the content needs a bit of history to make it understandable. I am doing my best to not get trapped in the web of history but I need for you to know it is a struggle and I may slip forgive me if it does happen. Please continue reading as I hope to eventually get to the point but the point needs some sign posts to make it relevant. Behind each sign post is a well of unconsciousness slipping into these wells I now know is what has kept me lost. The unconsciousness is not the kind where you are asleep as you generally see would see the word used but rather an awake type where you go to work drive you car build and destroy lives. This I believe is drug induced and I hope to if not prove it scientifically present a few more sign posts that may lead to a general understanding of what we are up against in trying to find our way thru this dark forest. Expect to trip on some fallen trees as would be the case maneuvering in any forest at night.

I know there will be many who will discount this idea of mine fine I accept you don’t agree and I know you will add your two cents I am not so much welcoming it as expecting it. I don’t welcome it because if I am even close to an understanding on this issue it is very important to the lives that have been affected and those that will be

affected in the future if we do not get some clarity around this issue and restrain the use of these drugs. There are countless places for you ideas I just wish you would not put them in this thread unless there is a some issue of fact you would like to contest where there is a possible mistake in the concept those comment which may lead to further growth or clarity on this issue are welcomed. If all you have is a non productive criticism bitching and whining please restrain yourself or start you own thread.

At this point I am mostly I hope above water but if I should slip into the well of unconsciousness the wake variety expect me to be underwater if you can go there with me pretend you are listening to a person underwater experiencing life and reacting to life while constantly underwater then you too can glimpse what it is like to be a person currently under the influence of antidepressants or reliving the state of drug induced unconsciousness. Welcome to our world be glad you can leave whenever you want as those of us affected cannot.

The idea just hit me that maybe the slips into the well are where the real identity and understanding exist and in that may dwell the truth you need to glimpse I think it may turn out in the end to be a bit of both. Life unconscious and the coming out and understanding life after this state it is a slow dawning not a sudden trip like the falling back in. For those who have lived this or are living it maybe this will help not in how things will be exactly for you but in sign post in showing the way. This entire exercise is in a hope of consolidating the past and therefore a base for the future as I cannot seem to move forward in the ways the world expects while I am still reeling from these experiences and slipping between altered states. I would like to say here that most of the time I do not live in an altered state at this point or I don’t believe I do I may be wrong either way I am out of it long enough to know the difference.

Here is the sign post that state this train of thought today.

 

 

 

N

 

 

 

 

Now I do not want to get into the purpose of the book though love this book and find it immensely helpful during my healing process it has helped me get through the days and direct my energy way from the trail of crap I have left in my wake.

What would like to focus on is the first sentence and may have been well advice to just type it but thought there may be some who will be spurred by the second sentence to read the book J hence there it is. I may put as many off their choice.

So when we are in dreamless sleep we are actually entering into a consciousness state that I suspect is a restorative state that allows us to heal on a regular basis hence allowing us to remain conscious in our waking day. Without this type of restorative sleep we slip into a an ever increasing state of unconscious living not just the type talked of in this book but a state beyond this to being unable to consolidate our own feelings wants needs we are removed from ourselves and live as shells of who we once were. This will change when the drugs are removed and tho the heart and soul the essence of who you are will

return there is all this pollution that has built up in you own system and is represented in how you have lived your life while drugged that needs to be dealt with. If you have been drugged for years and years this is an ominous task. If you have been drugged a short time with devastating effects as some are devastated this may still be an ominous task but with fewer wells to fall into.

Here is my take on this years ago I had a car accident I had what was thought to be a concussion. I hurt my leg in this accident and for a few years took Tylenol #3. I went to scheduled apt with a back specialist. I was working and quite functional at this time. This doctor thought I was taking too much Tylenol and gave me a pill that he said would allow me to take less. This is before home computers and before people mistrusted their doctor or their drugs. I took the pill. Within a couple of wks I had hallucinations and went quite mad. Strangely enough the medication was never thought to be a cause of any of these issues. Within the next two years I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue fibromyalgia quit work could not sleep had many other health and psych problems.

I seen and experienced things that were not there this fact got me sent to the head injury clinic where they suspected I had a brain injury from the accident year earlier and was having some kind of seizure which was expressing itself as these “experiences” I do not recall if I told them about the pill I had been given for leg pain I can only expect that it was part of my file they may or may not have received. Testing was done a sleep deprived EEG. During this test the operator asked me if I had a good nap. I found this odd as I had not been asleep and told her so. She said yes my brain was asleep. I also learned on reviewing sleep test with my doctor that I never went into the fourth level of dreamless sleep that discussed in the book that started this writing.

I had the pills from the back doc still I took them occasionally when my leg was too painful. The medication was prozac the name on the label was not prozac so even when I heard of prozac I did not identify it as a medication I had taken. It was not till 18 years had passed that I figured out I had taken prozac and that was cause of not only my craziness but the sever ongoing issue with insomnia pain and psych issues were indeed withdrawal. I suffered two years in this state before being sent to a pain clinic where you got it they put me on amitriptyiline an antidepressant used to treat fibro. I helped me sleep and through sleep my healing/life improved it too had many side effects I was eventually switched to Zoloft then paxil then respiradol then effexor eventually it stopped working increasing the does caused mania so cellexa was added this is how one is drugged for 18 years on what started as a treatment for leg pain and cause untold suffering . Repeatedly withdrawal was diagnosed as other things depression ptsd ect more drugs and more side effects and more withdrawal and more diagnosises… a trap is what I call it now.

Yes I have fallen in a couple of wells already as memory needs a place to unleash itself but I am still here and moving forward. This is how the post antidepressant brain functions or at least how mine does.

Back to unconsciousness induced losing your grip on life and personality changes this may not be the only reason the drugs have such a devastating effect but I think it is one of the ways.

Another offshoot of this sleep/consciousness idea can be found by looking at Sleep State Misperception it is a topic we covered at paxilprogress.org when I was a member there of course all my posts have been deleted so you will see number on the top left counting the

posts when you see a missing number you will know that was one of my posts. Still some of my comments are still in the responses as quotes. Doctors Anne Blakely covers this in her book and while she does some stuff that really does distract from her good work and make it easy for the drug companies to discredit her the information she presents on this issue seems sound. There are cases where a antidepressant using person has done things which they say were like dreams to them they are sleep walking. Something referred to in some antidepressant writings as spellbound. For instance a husband killed his wife in what seemed like a dream to him he loved her dearly and strangely enough he used the drug as a defence and went free. So there is more to this than my ramblings and yes I know I had my head smacked in a car accident and that rules me out is some peoples minds as have a straight up horrid reaction to medication and as medication being the soul cause of my problems but to that I offer this. I carried on my life after the head injury finished school and work the problem the doc was trying to fix was using too much Tylenol #3. The problem created was massive this is my opinion. I can’t make people believe me I can only tell the truth and let the pieces drop where they may.

What I can tell you is this when I was having problems when I was on Effexor I could not think after 5 or so years on I felt like I had did when I had just had a head injury and so I started looking for the doctors I had that were treating what they thought was a brain injury after I had taken the prozac. This was the worst my brain has ever worked after prozac and after 5 years of Effexor I could not think. After Effexor I had all the symptom of MS and was evaluated for it including an MRI which showed plaques in the white matter of my brain. This was thought to be either migraines or a vascular issue a the time. Since I have found research linking vascular issues to antidepressants. Either way the point of view that I felt he same right after the accident when I had a sever concussion then again after a short few doses of prozac then again after long term use of Effexor says something to me. These drugs hurt our brains mess with our sleep cycle in way not yet understood change our level of consciousness and hurt our bodies.

K that is it for me today I am spent

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ietnk098vo7smta/the-power-of-now.pdf?dl=0

[Irvingkirsch]

Hello everyone not so new to this. Rather tired of the entire situation but don't have any choice in some of it still messing around with hit and miss withdrawal symptoms some I am sure of some I am wondering about. 3.5 years post Effexor cold turkey after 7 years continuous use. Not afraid to fly alone use to it but it is nice to have company.

 

Hi, I'm not sure if you still come on this board, but I was wondering if you could tell me if you had problems gettting a suffiecient amount of sleep every night for a while after getting off antidepressants? I've had this problem for a while now and can only get about 4 hours of sleep. How long did it take for this problem to go away for you if at all?

[btdt]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ietnk098vo7smta/the-power-of-now.pdf?dl=0

I know you mean well but I am not so hot with this sort of stuff and hate it I really do if not for SA I may not even own a computer... that is how bad it is... peace

[btdt]

 

Hello everyone not so new to this. Rather tired of the entire situation but don't have any choice in some of it still messing around with hit and miss withdrawal symptoms some I am sure of some I am wondering about. 3.5 years post Effexor cold turkey after 7 years continuous use. Not afraid to fly alone use to it but it is nice to have company.

 

Hi, I'm not sure if you still come on this board, but I was wondering if you could tell me if you had problems gettting a suffiecient amount of sleep every night for a while after getting off antidepressants? I've had this problem for a while now and can only get about 4 hours of sleep. How long did it take for this problem to go away for you if at all?

 

 

I am 8+ years off cold turkey I still have sleep issues from time to time they come they go... in the old days I would go max 4 days without sleep then I got a bit crazy... usually that was the max... if your getting 4 hours every day you good... peace

[ang]

Hi Irving,   I had to reinstate seroquel,   now I wish I had tried not to.    Anyhow that worked, and am now tapering the seroquel.          I find after a cut, I get very little sleep for a few days, and then that settles.   The main thing, is even if not sleeping, are you relaxed, or in a state of panic?    I am usually a bit of both, but bearable.

Best advice I was given was to make sure it was totally dark,  all i do is wrap a t shirt around my eyes.

 

Perhaps cannabis oils are worth a try?  I found CDB oil quite sedating, but I dont use any of these anymore, I dont want to add any more of anything,  I just want my brain to recover without adding things to the mix.

 

I just went to your personal thread to see how you have been getting along, your last post there was March, I think.

 

How are you?   Did you reinstate any of your meds?  

[Irvingkirsch]

 

 

Hello everyone not so new to this. Rather tired of the entire situation but don't have any choice in some of it still messing around with hit and miss withdrawal symptoms some I am sure of some I am wondering about. 3.5 years post Effexor cold turkey after 7 years continuous use. Not afraid to fly alone use to it but it is nice to have company.

 

Hi, I'm not sure if you still come on this board, but I was wondering if you could tell me if you had problems gettting a suffiecient amount of sleep every night for a while after getting off antidepressants? I've had this problem for a while now and can only get about 4 hours of sleep. How long did it take for this problem to go away for you if at all?

 

 

I am 8+ years off cold turkey I still have sleep issues from time to time they come they go... in the old days I would go max 4 days without sleep then I got a bit crazy... usually that was the max... if your getting 4 hours every day you good... peace

 

 

Thanks, 4 days without sleep is really intense. How long was it before your sleep problems became as infrequent as they are now?

[Irvingkirsch]

Hi Irving,   I had to reinstate seroquel,   now I wish I had tried not to.    Anyhow that worked, and am now tapering the seroquel.          I find after a cut, I get very little sleep for a few days, and then that settles.   The main thing, is even if not sleeping, are you relaxed, or in a state of panic?    I am usually a bit of both, but bearable.

Best advice I was given was to make sure it was totally dark,  all i do is wrap a t shirt around my eyes.

 

Perhaps cannabis oils are worth a try?  I found CDB oil quite sedating, but I dont use any of these anymore, I dont want to add any more of anything,  I just want my brain to recover without adding things to the mix.

 

I just went to your personal thread to see how you have been getting along, your last post there was March, I think.

 

How are you?   Did you reinstate any of your meds?  

It's good that the withdrawal from your seroquel only lasts a few days with each cut. When I was cutting down on Remeron, I would get like 2 hours of total sleep a night for a week with each cut. 

 

Unfortunatley, I'm in a constant state of panic and the more sleep deprived I am, the worse it is.

 

I've tried the cannabis oils, but they weren't effective. Like you, I'm done messing with my brain since that strategy is the reason I'm in the situation I'm in.

 

I'm not doing well. My insomnia is worse than ever and it has been this way for the 3.5 months I've been off Luvox. I've experienced worse withdrawals, but this is pretty bad. I haven't reinstated any of my meds. I've been on meds since I was 10 and I'm now 34 and I think I'm done for life. I've wasted too much time and gone through too many withdrawals.

[btdt]

 

 

 

Hello everyone not so new to this. Rather tired of the entire situation but don't have any choice in some of it still messing around with hit and miss withdrawal symptoms some I am sure of some I am wondering about. 3.5 years post Effexor cold turkey after 7 years continuous use. Not afraid to fly alone use to it but it is nice to have company.

 

Hi, I'm not sure if you still come on this board, but I was wondering if you could tell me if you had problems gettting a suffiecient amount of sleep every night for a while after getting off antidepressants? I've had this problem for a while now and can only get about 4 hours of sleep. How long did it take for this problem to go away for you if at all?

 

 

I am 8+ years off cold turkey I still have sleep issues from time to time they come they go... in the old days I would go max 4 days without sleep then I got a bit crazy... usually that was the max... if your getting 4 hours every day you good... peace

 

 

Thanks, 4 days without sleep is really intense. How long was it before your sleep problems became as infrequent as they are now?

 

If I had your history which is not included here.. I would have more of an idea what you up against... what drug did you stop how you stopped it how long you took it how many drugs you had before .. I think is all important... in how I would answer or any suggestions I could make. Keep in mind my wd was as it turns out not just from effexor but from a few other drugs that I was given to "treat" the symptoms I was having while still on Effexor and when I came off effexor.  It is not as black and white as I thought it was once I learned more about the drugs and how they synergistically affect the brain/body...it is complex... 1+1 does not always =2 in this situation.  Many things affect how you heal and your life experiences while trying to heal are part of the mix ...surgeries car accidents other illnesses other drugs you may need to take .. add to the complexity and the duration in many instances. 

 

Knowledge can help to lessen the affects if you know how things affect you ...what to look for ex... there is a lot of knowledge on this site more than any previous wd site it has taken years of trial and error to get this far. What you find here was paid for in suffering by others who came before you who did not have the benefit of the knowledge we have now. Nothing will take the place of knowing your own body so while this site is priceless in what it offers the works is mostly yours to find what you need observe yourself and decide what to do next. 

 

For a time there is not much you can do that will affect your situation... decent food lots of water deep relaxation epson salt baths.. are basics but just as important are avoiding things that make your body work harder such as stress..drugs... booze anything your body finds toxic... stress is . hard to avoid when your in this situation as there are so many unanswered questions... expecting or demanding help from doctors is a big waste of time and drain on your personal resources as are a lot of negative emotions we all have to deal with before finally accepting this is wd and the only way out is thru it. Not an easy thing to deal with and it is a process we all go thru.. tiny bites is my suggestion a gut full of resentment does not help your healing. 

 

I would like to say one more thing about what may be toxic I am one of the  people who had reactions to different soaps perfumes ect... in early wd... I did not know what it was at the time and it has come back with a vengeance.. a hundred times worse than it was before.  I have come to know this as a chemical sensitivity... and have made many changes to my life to try and lessen the affects.

 

I wonder if I had known earlier what this was if limiting the toxins in my environment would have prevented this currant state... I don't know but there is a chance it would have.

 

There are many Multiple Chemical Sensitivity sites to look at if you are having problems with chemical reactions ..mine are mostly neurological or so it seems now. Avoiding perfumes in early wd may be one way to allow this system that is reacting to heal it would be one thing I would suggest to anyone in early stages who reacts to any scents or chemicals.

 

It may not make any difference in how it develops later the least it could do is help you feel better now. It is not just scents that are the problem as I have bought "scent free" products and reacted very badly to them.. it is the actual chemicals... and they are in everything.  If you can eat organic that is best too. I think most of us are not aware how many chemicals are in our lives we have assumed that if they were bad for us they would not be used... that simply is not true...not for me or many others.  Laundry soaps and room fresheners perfumes personal care products hair dye nail polish or remover paints cleaners the list is long... additives in our food... preservatives flavour enhancers colouring... it all adds to the toxic load your body has to detox. 

 

I would never have expected to be the person who goes on about sensitivities... before ADs I had no allergies no reactions to anything... now I am the whiny person in the corner saying don't spay that off around me... an avid camper I use to use off as a night gown... that may be part of my problem.  

 

Things can change drastically... 

peace

 

peace 

[btdt]

Started reading more about Dan Harris, the ABC newscaster who had an on-air panic attack in the early 2000s. His doc explained it was likely due to a bit of stimulating recreational drug use, and told him to knock it off. An assignment from his boss Peter Jennings to cover 'Religion and Spirituality' led him to try meditation and now he's a daily meditator. And he wrote a book about it too. What got me looking into his story was a new member's experience and I found Dan's delightful description of his journey into the world of meditation gloriously tongue-in-cheek in parts and almost abjectly self effacing in others, and hilariously funny in this circa 2014 talk at google NYC. He has a bit on Tolle that had me rolling. NSFW language in parts, he ought to do stand up he's so good.

 

 

Maybe it's time for me to put a toe in the water again?

 

Edited to add: But no where can I find how he fared in the immediate aftermath of the episode and strangely missing are any accounts of treatment, except maybe talking to the shrink (probably better therapy than pills). I don't think he was medicated and he was lucky. Were drugs so shotgunned into people back then? Was he offered benzos and refused? I know panic attacks and PTSD sufferers are cruelly over medicated nowadays, what about back then? It might be in the book, $10.95 for the kindle version, link above. Was he off air for a time too? The video of him during his attack belies the fact that to him, his world fell apart in front of 5 plus million viewers. Just a slight shaky breathlessness to his voice and a quick "Back to you, Diane (Sawyer)" followed by a deep breath while the camera was still rolling in the studio, a nervous straightening of the knot in his tie, a barely perceptible squaring of the shoulders after that deep breath.. You can hardly tell there was a problem.

 

28 min is he says taking the meds prescribed to you I don't know..... 

 

he has doctor science parents maybe that is how he managed to not get drugs.... 

 

maybe journalists don't get them in case he talks lol

 

I can't believe he read the power of now and missed the most important line in the entire book....

 

watch for the next thought ... when it comes start over... that is very odd to me... very odd...and you don't have to clear you mind is wrong you do... and everything he talks about here in other authors books came from the power of now.. ALL of it he gives credit to other people... he says we are all A..holes... hmmm maybe he is. not a fan BOO to him. 

 

I did look for my Power of Now book so I could quote the things he gives credit to other for... but I can't find it.. or I would as I hate when people steal things and give them to somebody else... yep I am about decency... most days.

 

Posted 25 May 2016 - 08:24 AM

if you read this you will see

 

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/1577314808

 

Posted 25 May 2016 - 10:51 AM

Whatever you say, b, whatever you say. 

I believe you missed the entire point of what he had to say and misunderstood the rest.

It's ok, keep stalking those thoughts if that's what works for you.

Really I would say the same back to you. Still agreeing or disagreeing I wish you peace and a taco kitty...we don't have to agree on everything. I am very passionate about the power of now as it saved me once so I know it inside and out even without the book in my hand. 

peace

 

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:41 PM

Is this some kind of test to prove I am wrong?  I don't want to play.  I feel ill intent... why the questions. I was in a very bleak place I found a book called the power of now in that book I found a man ready to die as I was... this is what he said...

 

my brain was driving to distraction I sat up in bed ready to end it all I could not take one more minute and I chose to die... and when I had made the choice to do it.. all the chatter in my head stopped... and I thought hey who made that choice ... if my brain was busy with chatter what is the voice that said I am dying... end of story no more problems... 

 

hence duality... one voice chatters ... the ego driven choice maker we are raise to follow it makes us decent citizens we follow the get up go to school get up go to work.. why.. to earn the things we are told we want.. all the while there is a self.. the one who could say NO>>> that doesn't say much goes along trying to tick the boxes of happiness and raise to all the obligations we are told we have to be decent successful human being and all the while that real self is saying ok this ok cause I am ok to a point then one day the self is not ok .. the chatter is driving the self to distracting the demands are too high the rewards are too small and there is a break... 

 

once the break comes... the source of the real power is found.. it is the self that can choose as once the choice was made the voice was silent...

 

I have lived this over and over and over in my life it was not just reading it... it was living it so many time I chose to die I knew exactly how I would die I wrote my letters I had everything ready.. my brain was driving me mad... I wanted out there were no rewards or not enough the trickets I could buy the food the houses the whatever the pats on the back... all that.. not enough... 

 

Once I chose to die it all stopped I got relief... and I had a rest from the brain chatter but at the time I had not identified it as such.. I just knew when I chose to die and when I had it all ready to go... I magically no longer wanted to die and the torment ended and I could have a rest and then later go on.... 

 

There was not just chatter but visions of horrid things that started when I took prozac I thought all those 18 year of taking drugs I was mentally ill I did not know I had taken a mind altering drug I thought it was an anti inflammatory...so I kept taking more drugs cause I never knew I had a sar to prozac and that is what started it... more drugs kept it going but at a lower rate... it would come and go... add another drug to my AD and back it would start I would quit that drug get wd go back on another drug... do it all over again... sometimes it was different with effexor it was different but still not great... celexa was added more insanity... I thought this was the drug failing and my disease coming back I bought in hook line and sinker I was a believer I drank the cool aide completely because I did not know... 18 year of that... 18 years of intermittent suicidal thoughts and plans of how to die.. 

 

One time I decided to see what role suicide played in my life and I took a long hard look at it and discovered it was a break I did all that to get a break from the torment once I made the decision the torment stopped I had no problems as I was not going to be here I had a break then went back to life many times...sometimes I had to stop a drug and start another if I was having too much... I think this was too much serotoin for me but no I can't prove it... 

 

I was in a state in wd after my 18 months of seemingly getting better all the time and I hit the wall and was so negative and depressed it was bad... and I found the book the power of now .... and it rescued me from that.  

 

The stopping the thoughts as I was plagued with a lot of really bad negative thoughts and memories of being not myself and stripping and so very much happened in that time that nobody knows but me... it was bad and I had lost my best friend to these drugs and watched him have a brain anyerism... it was constant bombardment of those bad thoughts I could not get out from under it... and my husband was dying... all that old stuff... and all the therapy I had done was not worth a dime and I went to more therapy and it did nothing... not really. 

 

I got that book and the sky opened for me when I started doing that one thing... focus intently on the next thought... when it comes start over... I did that over and over and over and over I took control of my own brain and freed myself from torment... it was like planning a suicide to get relief but I did not have to do the gruesome work... it was hard work at the time but It worked like magic.  

 

That is why I am speaking up cause this was a big deal to me... and I hope this answers your questions I am not so hot at tests and that is a lie I was an honour student and if I am well and I decide to learn something I can learn anything.. but I do not want to look up each thing you asked and learn it ...I want to answer you based on that book the power of now I also could talk about Jesus if you like but am now sure what your asking regarding that... not really I have such a gutteral reaction to the question and an immediate urge to get you to understand this ... which is for me emotional that I am not in my head about Jesus I am in my gut about what I know saved me... and that is what I am sharing if you like another time I will come back and talk about the others if you still need it lets see how this flies first.. if that bird don't fly then... we talk about it some more. 

peace

 

sorry for the mistakes it was in no way a suggestion that your not worth my corrections I am just tired and had to get it out right away... k 

peace to you CW...

 

Btdt, you went waaaaaayyyyy out of the 'now' in your reaction to my posting, but that just shows more about you than me. You aren't able to see that Tolle has made the same money you are accusing Harris of doing from the elucidation of concepts that are 'timeless' and he did not 'steal' anything.

Look up, look up, broaden your horizons a bit. There are so many of these kinds of people, they are saying the same thing in different ways according to their experience. Some kinda pervert it so you have to watch out, but most do it in such a way as to spark understanding in a 'mind' where others have failed.

Some people cannot stand Tolle, you surprised? Does that say more about them or Tolle?

The present moment, the Now, the point of power, the ground of all being, and countless other phrases (Oh, the 'Holy Ghost' I think, too) all refer to the same thing which has to be experienced, not defined and defies description. My favorite word is 'ineffable' because not only does it describe it (not) [i am referring to Tolle talking about 'Presence' here] but you cannot really define the word itself without stumbling all over yourself. Try it without looking in the dictionary if you think you know what it means. I can't so I don't try. I reach for the word 'ineffable' and let it go at that. 

Dan Harris is appealing to the skeptics and overly bright and scientific minded folk, trying to draw them into a reliable way of experiencing the 'ineffable' because he knows it's really the best thing going for a lot of humanity's ills and he is walking proof. Interesting to note his wife thinks it's great for him but not interested herself. Did you hear that part? I believe she loved him enough to marry him while still thinking he could be an insufferable azz. He's not so much of an azz now. Regular contacts with the 'ineffable' will do that to you, it appears. I should do it too.

 

When I said you misunderstood Dan Harris's talk I meant it and you are just continuing to reiterate that now. Sheesh, give Dan a break! He is doing MUCH good encouraging people to learn meditation, which is the whole point of the power of living in the now. You were so far out of the 'now' in your posts that they came across as ranting. Not a good sign, so chill. Whenever that happens, there's a chance something is being triggered in YOUR psyche and not something wrong with the facts.

I'll add a note in my thread that you'll prob misunderstand too and think it is being mean but it is not.

I am attempting to point out to you that Tolle's message was far more profound than you think and I posted you a copy of his book in electronic form, all you have to do is download it and you can read it on your computer in any PDF reader you use, such as Adobe. Read it again and please, just chill, ok? Add a bit of peace in there too for good measure.

 

I am going to re think this so I put it all in one place to make my life easier.

[lanah]

Unfortunately because of my brain fog I can't read everything that is written here, I read bits and pieces. I wanted to mention that on benzobuddies they kind of came up with 4 stages of withdrawal. Where you had stage 1 constant suffering, stage 2 windows and waves but they come out of the blue, stage 3 is the stage where waves are triggered by certain foods and things, and you are very sensitive to stuff, and stage 4 is where you heal.
It's always a combination at least, but everyone seems to recognize these stages. (this is in regards to you mentioning the sensitivities, that could be a good sign? )

[btdt]

Unfortunately because of my brain fog I can't read everything that is written here, I read bits and pieces. I wanted to mention that on benzobuddies they kind of came up with 4 stages of withdrawal. Where you had stage 1 constant suffering, stage 2 windows and waves but they come out of the blue, stage 3 is the stage where waves are triggered by certain foods and things, and you are very sensitive to stuff, and stage 4 is where you heal.

It's always a combination at least, but everyone seems to recognize these stages. (this is in regards to you mentioning the sensitivities, that could be a good sign? )

It has taken me 8+ years to get to stage 3 so if math has anything to do with this I may be done in 12 years... only 3 1/2 to go.  I watched the video here

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12083-making-the-case-against-antidepressants-in-parliament-robert-whitaker/

 

the gentleman who was in AD wd had the sensitivities too.. bit foggy headed myself when I watched it I can't be sure if he said they ever ended or not so it is for sure a part of AD wd. 

Thanks for the heads up.

[btdt]

I am going deaf... just one ear it sucks.  I am taking supplements trying to improve things in the mean time there have been some disruptions in my normal calm self... but whatever.  Have to break some eggs to make an omelette.  I have also started working with an osteopath who says something is not flowing properly in my brain... sound fishy? 

I am at the point where I don't care I am going to try it. 

peace all

[stan]

Btdt,

 

Enough with the studies! They are not a reliable guide to good health at all. For instance, you say you are taking 100mg Selenium.

 

SELENIUM IS A TRACE MINERAL NEEDED BY THE BODY AND IS MEASURED IN MICROGRAMS WHICH IS A VERY TINY DOSE.

 

Too much and you are actually causing yourself harm.

 

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Selenium-HealthProfessional/

 

You are stuffing so much garbage into your brain that is clouding the issue. You cannot use supplements to get well no matter how much you think it will work. The body is meant to exist on FOOD not chemicals, it's your diet you need to concentrate on. Using supplements is likely to cause more problems and you never will feel better.

 

Some people just get those mouth ulcers when they consume acidic foods, you are confusing cause and effect sometimes because some people get them and don't eat the acid foods.

 

Eat nutricious food in a balanced diet. Drink at least 8 oz water a day, don't go nuts on the water. Walk outside (or crawl or shuffle or sit and move your arms and legs like you are swimming) but for goodess sake do it every day for at least 30 minutes. Lie in bed 8 hours each day at the same time and rest.

 

Get off that computer and go on a fast from looking stuff up. Knowledge is not what is needed, it is action. Good old fashioned self care.

 

What does nike say? Just Do It.

 

The supplement manufacturers and purveyors are good for little else but emptying your wallet. How about trying food? Even processed food is better than artificial supplements.

 

So maybe you should try the diet my mom has been on for the last few years? Diet 7up, coffee, dole fruit cups, pepperidge farm cinnamon raisin bread, 'i cant believe its not butter' spread, TOOTSIE ROLLS, potato chips, arby's roast beef, wendy's chili, chicken lo mein, domino's wings, dairy queen plain cheese burgers, and very occasionally will she eat some canned beets, cottage cheese and campbells vegetable soup. Oh and club crackers, she loves them.

 

91 1/2 and still mean as a snake (to me, not strangers). But it's FOOD, even though there are probably chemicals in there that gourmands would shun, dieticians too. But it's FOOD.

 

 

hi 

 

for me i agree your advice, better eat good food(supplements are inside and good balanced) than eating supplements (a deluge of chemical bad balanced and becoming sometime little toxic)

[btdt]

Thanks Stan I appreciate your advice. 

[btdt]

There is on gem in the power of now... take what you need leave the rest it worked for me.. 

 

watch for the next thought when it comes start over... 

 

end of story for me 

 

to each their own... simple stuff for a simple life I can't do more than that

 

peace

[btdt]

For those of us with low vitamin D on test results and bad reactions to supplementing Vit D this may be of interest...

 

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2013 Jul;98(7):2944-51. doi: 10.1210/jc.2012-4262. Epub 2013 Apr 22.

Oral supplementation with probiotic L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 increases mean circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D: a post hoc analysis of a randomized controlled trial.

Jones ML1, Martoni CJ, Prakash S.

Author information

 

 

A lot more about it here sure sounds like a wonder product... I have followed this guy off and on over the years he seems to do reliable research as well and anyone using dr google... 

https://selfhacked.com/2016/03/23/top-12-scientific-health-benefits-of-l-reuteri/

 

he recommends a multi strain brand I would not go that route as there are very different strains doing different things.. or it is possibe the science is not all in yet.. one old strain at a time of these newer pb is my idea. 

 

He says it may not be good for histamine intolerace folk but I read new research last wk that say this is not so... do your own research it is best. 

 

another link about this probiotic at the Chronic Fatigue/Fibro topics.. you can find here

 

https://cfsremission.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/lactobacillus-reuteri-and-recommendations-on-how-to-take-it/

Abstract

CONTEXT:

Low serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D is a risk factor for osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. Disruption of noncholesterol sterol absorption due to cholesterol-lowering therapies may result in reduced fat-soluble vitamin absorption.

OBJECTIVE:

We have previously reported on the cholesterol-lowering efficacy and reduced sterol absorption of probiotic bile salt hydrolase active Lactobacillus reuteri NCIMB 30242; however, the effects on fat-soluble vitamins was previously unknown and the objective of the present study. DESIGN, SETTINGS, PATIENTS, AND INTERVENTION: The study was double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized, parallel-arm, multicenter lasting 13 weeks. A total of 127 otherwise healthy hypercholesterolemic adults with low-density lipoprotein-cholesterol >3.4 mmol/L, triglycerides <4.0 mmol/L, and body mass index of 22 to 32 kg/m² were included. Subjects were recruited from 6 private practices in Prague, Czech Republic, and randomized to consume L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 or placebo capsules over a 9-week intervention period.

OUTCOME MEASURES:

The primary outcome measure was the change in serum low-density lipoprotein-cholesterol over the 9-week intervention. Analysis of fat-soluble vitamins at weeks 0 and 9 were performed post hoc.

RESULTS:

There were no significant differences between L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 and placebo capsule groups in serum vitamin A, vitamin E, or β-carotene or dietary intake over the intervention period (P > .05). L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 increased serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D by 14.9 nmol/L, or 25.5%, over the intervention period, which was a significant mean change relative to placebo of 17.1 nmol/L, or 22.4%, respectively (P = .003).

CONCLUSIONS:

To our knowledge, this is the first report of increased circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D in response to oral probiotic supplementation.

PMID:     It could also be that any increase in Vit D no matter how it got increased will cause a reaction. 

more about the L.Reuteri at the chronic fatigue site here

 

https://cfsremission.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/lactobacillus-reuteri-and-recommendations-on-how-to-take-it/

[btdt]

I actually use the L reuteri for a time is now my go to for tooth pain and a few other things.. like not being able to think getting lost... maybe I need some now.  I had a bottle in the fridge but it has expired. 

 

I was looking at magnesium 

nxiety disorders, such as phobias and posttraumatic stress disorder, are among the most common mental disorders. Cognitive therapy helps in treating these disorders; however, many cases relapse or resist the therapy, which justifies the search for cognitive enhancers that might augment the efficacy of cognitive therapy. Studies suggest that enhancement of plasticity in certain brain regions such as the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and/or hippocampus might enhance the efficacy of cognitive therapy. We found that elevation of brain magnesium, by a novel magnesium compound [magnesium-L-threonate (MgT)], enhances synaptic plasticity in the hippocampus and learning and memory in rats. Here, we show that MgT treatment enhances retention of the extinction of fear memory, without enhancing, impairing, or erasing the original fear memory. We then explored the molecular basis of the effects of MgT treatment on fear memory and extinction. In intact animals, elevation of brain magnesium increased NMDA receptors (NMDARs) signaling, BDNF expression, density of presynaptic puncta, and synaptic plasticity in the PFC but, interestingly, not in the basolateral amygdala. In vitro, elevation of extracellular magnesium concentration increased synaptic NMDAR current and plasticity in the infralimbic PFC, but not in the lateral amygdala, suggesting a difference in their sensitivity to elevation of brain magnesium. The current study suggests that elevation of brain magnesium might be a novel approach for enhancing synaptic plasticity in a regional-specific manner leading to enhancing the efficacy of extinction without enhancing or impairing fear memory formation.

Previous SectionNext Section

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/42/14871.full

 

Chat about it here

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/54325-magnesium-l-threonate-is-no-more-effective-than-sulfate-form/

No volunteer complained of any adverse effects, evem at MgSO4 levels of 2.5% . Possible effects on the kidneys were tested by measuring urinary protein content. This did not change significantly, whichever Epsom salt levels were used, over the 8-day period. Kidney damage is therefore not an issue.

3) MAGNESIUM administered PER ORALLY; using any of the following three forms, all of which have good PER ORAL absorption: MALATE, GLYCINATE, or THREONATE  (N.B. AVOID the OXIDE, CHLORIDE and CITRATE forms) 

 

Furthermore, please kindly note that there is NO TOLERANCE to MAGNESIUM's effects. This is a MEDICAL FACT 

There is NO TOLERANCE because its primary mechanism of action is that of NMDA RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST  

wiki

What is an NMDA antagonist?

NMDA receptor antagonists are a class of anesthetics that work to antagonize, or inhibit the action of, the N-Methyl-D-aspartate receptor (NMDAR). They are used as anesthetics for animals and for humans; the state of anesthesia they induce is referred to as dissociative anesthesia.