downtongirl: I want to become med-free

[downtongirl]

Well...I went to see a new gynecologist who specializes in menopause...and is a woman...previous gyno was a male....anyway I had a complete hysterectomy 7 1/2 years ago and at the time of the hysterectomy I was stable on a dosage of effexor so I did not have a lot of hot flashes from being immediately surgically menopause induced so I opted for no hormone replacement therapy....well in the fall of 2013 I was on cymbals instead of effexor and the hot flashes and night sweats and insomnia is getting the best of me so I go onto the estradiol (estrogen) pill.  It helped with the hot flashes and insomnia.  I was on it until the spring of 2015 and decided to come off because I did not think it was really helping me but looking back I was in klonopin withdrawal and had been changing my antidepressant so I wonder if it was more withdrawal than the estradiol no longer being effective.  Anyway I recently started bioidentical progesterone therapy at night by a naturopath doctor and it helps with making me feel a little calm after I take it and maybe slightly with sleep but not with the hot flashes so I found this new gyno dr. and she drew blood and said that I needed to be on the estrogen and progesterone so she started me on a .5mg estradiol dot patch that I change twice a week.  I started it on 9/2/15 and think I am sleeping a little better but I feel it is too soon to say it is due to the estradiol.  I am not expecting it to cure my withdrawal symptoms but would love for it to help with some mood swings, agitation, sleep, and hot flashes...has anyone out there gone on hormone replacement therapy while in withdrawal and it help any of there symptoms?  Thanks in advance!

[AliG]

DowntonGirl .   There are many differing views on hormone replacement . Personally, I think the reason Bio-identical hormone replacement therapy has been sometimes maligned by some but not all of the medical profession is like anything else, to do with money. The drug companies miss out on their $.

My own experience has been positive and I have had success with them . I think they are superior and more natural to the body than the synthetic concoctions dreamed up by Big Pharma.  You need a balance and sometimes that can be hard to achieve at the best of times but particularly in withdrawal.  An experienced doctor who specializes in this field is an asset.  It sounds like you might have possibly found one.

 

My blood counts have been a bit " screwed up " in withdrawal, but like everything else, I'm hoping they will continue to stabilize as I do .  

This is only my account but I know they have helped me. Unfortunately , it can be a " perfect storm" when you combine hormone irregularities with withdrawal.

 

As always do your homework/ research and then make an informed decision that you feel is right for your life/ circumstances and health.

I would say they have definitely been a positive thing.  I hope this helps you a little. 

Ali   

[downtongirl]

AliG....thanks so much for your reply....do you remember about how long it took for your hormone therapy to help with mood swings, insomnia, and anxiety?  Do you take progesterone and estrogen?  If so what form of them do you take?

 

I have had different doctors to tell me just do estrogen and then one told me to do just progesterone....from what I am reading and from this new doctor they say I would do better on both....I like the fact that she is doing blood test to check for levels rather than just stabbing in the dark and guessing what dosage I need.

 

She also said that the patch estrogen is better than the oral....I have read that other places too.

[downtongirl]

Well....my daily patterns are changing a little...I guess that is to be expected....

 

am...mild agitation and frustration

 

late morning to afternoon....feel like crying...sad...do cry a little

 

evening and night....hot flashes increase

 

night time...difficulty going to sleep...lots of waking up several times at night...lots of hot flashes and night sweats at night...

 

today is day 5 of my estrogen patch,..contiuing to take the progesterone at night...if the estrogen doesn't help with sleep I may have to go up on my trazadone or switch to something else for sleep like elavil, seroquel, or klonopin....I have tried all of the herbal remedies and melatonin for sleep and they don't work more than a couple of days and I have to have some sleep....I so want to go back to work....I am so tired of being at home....I just don't know what to do....my doctor wants me to go back on klonopin but I am scared to but feel it may be my only option....

[tntd]

I have to wonder if your sleep problems are being caused by an imbalance in your hormones. I know you had a complete hysterectomy but since the doctors have started working with your hormones you sound like you're having menopause symptoms.

 

I'm in peri-menopause and your symptoms sound so much like mine. The second half of my cycle I have terrible insomnia usually, probably because my estrogen is too high compared with my progesterone and estrogen is excitatory.

 

I thought this article describing the functions of the hormones and how an imbalance can cause sleep problems was interesting so I thought I would share it with you.

 

 

Estrogen and sleep problems

 

When estrogen is too high and progesterone too low, it can cause sleep problems for the obvious reason—there is too much of the excitatory estrogen compared to the calming progesterone and the brain can’t calm down enough to rest. A proper ratio between the two is important.

However, low estrogen can also contribute to sleep problems. Estrogen is intimately connected with serotonin, a brain chemical associated with a feeling of well-being and that is converted to melatonin, a sleep hormone. Low estrogen may lead to low serotonin activity and contribute not only to sleep problems but also depression and anxiety. The female brain is highly dependent on sufficient estrogen for normal function in general, and low estrogen can also cause symptoms that include brain fog and memory loss. http://capitaldistrictvitalitycenter.com/blog/2012/12/why-sleep-is-more-difficult-for-women/

 

Anyway, just a thought since this started happening after the changes to your hormones it might have something to do with it. I'm wondering if it may take a little while to get the amounts right for you as an individual. Isn't being a woman fun

 

Hope you sleep well tonight.

[downtongirl]

Thanks for the info...sounds very familiar to other information I have read about in the net dealign with menopause...yes being a woman is so much fun....I so wish men had to experience a menstruation cycle, giving birth, and menopause   ....not to bash our male board members....I am sure there are aspects to being a male that we as women can't appreciate either.  I just wish Eve had not eaten that apple   

[downtongirl]

Forgot to mention that I got the results from my stress test and structurally my heart is a ok....but I am having PVC's (irregular heart beats), elevated heart rate, and elevated blood pressure so I am on metropolol xr 25 mg....I have bee on that for 6 days.  I take it in the morning and it is helping some with the heart beat and heart rate issues.  I have noticed that I am weepy a couple of hours after I take it so that might explain the increase in sadness....I notice as the day goes on the sadness sort of improves some....I know that depression can be a side effect of the beta blockers so I will need to pay close attention to this.  I will need to update my signature also.

[tntd]

Well I'm glad your heart is structurally sound. Sorry you have to take a beta blocker. I took propranolol one time, for akathisia, and ended up feeling really down. Maybe you will get lucky and that side effect will be temporary.

 

I think those shows where they have men experience the pain of childbirth are kind of funny. 

 

Ah, our lovely hormones. Can't live with them, can't live without them!!

[AliG]

AliG....thanks so much for your reply....do you remember about how long it took for your hormone therapy to help with mood swings, insomnia, and anxiety?  Do you take progesterone and estrogen?  If so what form of them do you take?

 

I have had different doctors to tell me just do estrogen and then one told me to do just progesterone....from what I am reading and from this new doctor they say I would do better on both....I like the fact that she is doing blood test to check for levels rather than just stabbing in the dark and guessing what dosage I need.

 

She also said that the patch estrogen is better than the oral....I have read that other places too.

 

I have been on it for quite a few years and it takes a while to get the balance right based on blood tests. They helped from the start but became unbalanced in withdrawal. I'm still getting back on track. 

I take a mix of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone - cream am  and troche.pm

It is a matter of " fine tuning" according to what your body needs.

 

I had heart palpitations during withdrawal. They do settle down in time. You will have to taper off the Beta Blocker as well. It's another drug added to the mix. Have a read through this link :

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7144-tapering-beta-blockers-or-alpha-blockers/?hl=%2Balpha+%2Bblocker#entry103359

 

I would be hesitant to add yet another drug.

Ali

[downtongirl]

Well it was 6 weeks yesterday since my last Prozac pill. This week I have been having a lot of muscle aches and pains especially in my jaws and head. I have been having to use Tylenol and ibuprofen although not together at the same time. I also have been having these episodes where I get really sad and will shed a tear or two but that all of a sudden stops on its on without any effort from me and almost as fast as turning on a light switch the sad feelings turn into a sense of relief and almost a light happy feeling...strange indeed. I am still experiencing dizziness and fatigue. This withdrawal is different from a year ago where it took a couple of months for the major withdrawal symptoms to show up...strangely enough I think I prefer this withdrawal so far because I am not being caught by surprise...at the least I hope I won't get caught by surprise by it getting worse.

[tntd]

I hope things get better for you as well DG. Sorry to hear that you are hurting though, that's never fun. Are you still able to get out and about?

 

Just wanted to stop by and let you know that I'm thinking about you.

 

Hugs and healing

[downtongirl]

Thanks T.....I saw on your thread you are changing things up with K.  I wish you the best of luck.  I seem to have one day where I am very sad, flat, zombie, depressed and the next I am agitated, anxious, irritated......I really don't think things will ever get better and I fear I will never be able to sleep with out the trazadone.

[tntd]

Hi D,

 

Thanks for the well wishes. It's kind of scary but the interdose withdrawal was getting to me and I read on BB that it just makes the tapering harder. 

 

I know what you mean about feeling like we will never get better. It is a withdrawal symptoms to feel that way. All the symptoms suck but that one tries to suck the hope out of you.

 

I wish you were feeling better. Know that I am thinking about you.

[downtongirl]

Ok so now that it has been almost 7 weeks since my last prozac dosage I was wondering about how much of the medicine is still in my system?  I have read reports that say 6 weeks and it should be out of your system and then i have read reports that say 3 months?  Is there a consensus on this board as to when it should be mostly out?   My genetic testing says that I am a poor metabolizer if that helps.  Thanks.

 

Also, with me taking the trazadone for sleep would that be causing prozac to linger in my body longer?

 

Should the trazadone be helping cover any of the prozac withdrawal?

[Shep]

Hi, Downtown.

 

Prozac's half life is discussed in the Tips for tapering off Prozac (fluoxetine):

 

It has the longest half-life of any SSRI. After you take it for a few days, half-life is about 16 days. Fluoxetine itself has a half-life of 2-4 days, but as it is processed, your body creates an active antidepressant metabolite, norfluoxetine, which has a half-life of 7-15 days. So Prozac keeps on extending its half-life as it is metabolized.

 

But in the context of withdrawal, it's less about how long the drug stays in your system and more about how it changes the brain:

 

Brain Remodelling (Rhi's Description of Brain Healing)

 

To answer your other question - "Should the trazadone be helping cover any of the prozac withdrawal?"  It may or may not because you're also dealing with a discontinuation syndrome from that drug, as well.

 

You've also introduced lithium orotate a few weeks ago, which is close to when you stopped taking Prozac, so that complicates the picture. 

 

Please keep the concept of limbic kindling in mind:

 

Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity

 

As mentioned, it's less about when the drug (or supplement) gets out of your system and more about what the chemicals have done to your mind and body. 

 

Question for you - when did you come off Cymbalta? I noticed that drug is in your first post, but I don't see anything about it in your signature. Please update your signature to include this information so we have a complete picture.

 

 

[downtongirl]

Hi Shep....I quit taking Cymbalta two years ago....September 2014.  I am not taking the lithium orotate any longer since I started hormone replacement therapy and I will update my signature.

[downtongirl]

Well... I wanted to update to let you know how things have been going for me the past couple of weeks.  I went to a menopause specialist about 2 1/2 weeks ago and we decided to put me back on hormone replacement therapy.  I had a complete hysterectomy about 9 years ago and was on estrogen therapy via a pill for a couple of years but when I decided to get off of all prescription medications I stopped taking it.  Well since being back on estrogen therapy things have improved.  I am now trying a estradiol patch at .5 mg and it has helped reduce hot flashes, sleep is a little better, anxiety surges is a little better too.  I also decided to try the L-methylfolate again but at a lower dosage of 5 mg instead of the 15 mg in deplin and I am not having any bad reactions so I will continue to try it.  My doctor also switched me from 25 - 50 mg of trazadone to 10 mg of amitrypteline for fibromyalgia.  I don't know which medication is stronger....the trazadone or the amitryptiline but I simply stopped the trazadone when I added the amitryptiline.  I haven't seen  any negative effects so far and it has been about a week.  I have been doing pretty well...I went to a ladies Christian retreat Friday- Saturday and went to a college football game yesterday and church today.  A lot of my symptoms are the same as menopausal symptoms so I don't know how much of what I have been experiencing over the past year is withdrawal and how much are menopausal symptoms or if one makes the other worse?  I do know that so far the estradiol therapy seems to be helping.  I go back to the menopausal specialist this week and we will draw blood again to recheck my hormone levels.  When she checked them at the previous visit they were low as to be expected.  I am expecting she will increase my estradiol patch as I am not where I would like to be symptom wise.  I have even read that women in menopause can have brain zaps/shivers/electrical symptoms.  The type of estradiol patch I am using has to be changed out twice a week and I do notice on the day that I am supposed to change it I have more symptoms so I am guessing my body is getting less estrogen on those days which means more symptoms.  I don't know if the pill would be better but my doctor seems to think that absorbing the estradiol through the skin is more effective so I will see.  I still have some anxiety and some low mood/lack of motivation, fatigue, dizziness, etc. but these are getting better.  In my readings I have found that estrogen has a profound effect on serotonin so maybe the menopause has made m y withdrawal symptoms worse...who knows only time will tell I guess.  

[tntd]

Hi DG,

 

It's good to hear that things seem to be getting a little better for you. It's so nice that you were able to get out and be with other people this weekend. I hope the women from your retreat were a great support for you.

 

I hope your appointment goes well this week as well.

 

Thinking of you,

 

Hugs and healing

[downtongirl]

Thanks T....I hope it is not just a window but the start to long term improvement.  I hope you feel better soon too!

[tntd]

Thank you DG. 

 

Hugs

[downtongirl]

Well I have been off of prozac for 8 1/2 weeks and things are getting more intense.....the sad feelings are more intense.....the happy feelings are more intense.....and I am now having some nausea and an internal vibrating feeling especially in my legs....it feels like a continuous adrenaline overdose....like I have drank too much caffeine....It feels like I am going to loose control....I can sit still so I don't know if it is akathisia or not?

[scallywag]

Please don't worry about what name to give your symptoms. Your description of the actual experience is better than a name given to it by medical professionals.

[downtongirl]

scallywag...the reason I am concerned if it is akathisia is so I will know how to treat it....do you know what works to treat the internal adrenaline that lasts for hours?

[scallywag]

No I don't know what will treat adrenaline rushes.  My comment about using your words rather than medical terms will probably still be useful here at SA and when dealing with doctors. It happens in many situations, as soon as we think something is a problem, we rule out other options.  Using the umbrella term "akathisia" isn't particularly helpful and can point you or someone assisting you in the wrong direction.

[downtongirl]

It just feels like I want to go running down the road screaming 

[downtongirl]

Can withdrawal cause mania or hypomania?

[scallywag]

If you have questions about whether something could be a symptom, there are several good places to look:

What is withdrawal syndrome
Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list
Important topics about symptoms

[tntd]

No I don't know what will treat adrenaline rushes.  My comment about using your words rather than medical terms will probably still be useful here at SA and when dealing with doctors. It happens in many situations, as soon as we think something is a problem, we rule out other options.  Using the umbrella term "akathisia" isn't particularly helpful and can point you or someone assisting you in the wrong direction.

 

Hi DG,

 

When I had akathisia I went in to see my doctor believing I already knew what I had but I told him all of my symptoms and let him tell me what he thought I had. I happened to be right but I'm not always so I usually don't tell them what I think it is. If you are like me though I tend to research the heck out of it to try to get a handle on what in the world is going on. 

 

Have you tried any extra magnesium to help with the agitation? An epsom salt bath maybe if you are worried about stomach issues. I have found putting magnesium in water and then sipping it as needed has helped me a lot when I feel extremely anxious or agitated. I have found that if I take the magnesium away from any calcium it works better to calm me. 

 

I'm thinking of you,

 

Hugs and healing

[Sunny123]

Hi, I just joined and have never responded to someone yet, not sure if I'm doing it right.. I have used hydroxyzine in the past, I'm not on it anymore. I had some trouble with it

[downtongirl]

Thanks T....I do take magnesium supplements and try to get a couple hot epsom salt baths in per week.  Hugs to you!

[Sunny123]

Sorry, I see that I was reading from the top (the most old)

[downtongirl]

Hi, I just joined and have never responded to someone yet, not sure if I'm doing it right.. I have used hydroxyzine in the past, I'm not on it anymore. I had some trouble with it

Hi Sunny!  Thanks for dropping by.  What symptoms did you take the hydroxyzine for?  What type of trouble did you have with it?  I have taken it in the past but not on a regular basis.

[Sunny123]

. Thanks! I took it for anxiety, I get really bad chronic anxiety (social especially) and panic attacks too. Actually I would have to admit I abused it. I finally threw them out when I stumbled upon something online that said 20 pills of my dose would b sure death. It scared me bc I was taking a lot of them

[tntd]

My doctor gave me hydroxyzine when she started reducing my benzo. I think I only took it twice. The first time I ended up with a really bad headache and it didn't help my anxiety, plus I was so tired all day I couldn't do anything. The second time I took it at bedtime and couldn't really wake up and was super depressed, crying and feeling like the world was going to end. Benadryl did the same thing to me, made me super depressed. So did propranolol. These were all things the doctor prescribed or recommended. 

 

The propanolol was specifically for the akathisia. It worked but at the price of super low mode with lots of apathy. That was one dose and a low one at that. 

 

Hope you are feeling better today.

 

Hugs and healing

[downtongirl]

Well....I wanted to update...I am still here....the 1 mg of estradiol (tablet form) seems to be helping quite a bit with the hot flashes thank God!  

 

I had my one month follow up with the cardiologist for a more in-depth report from my stress test.  Initially I did not do well on my stress test....I did not make it to the 7 minute mark on the tread mill and when they elevated the tread mill is when I almost passed out.  The ultrasound showed no heart defects structurally but when I try to walk on a incline my heart does not pump the way it should which causes a spike in blood pressure.  I have had the palpitations off and on for 7 and a half years and they started before I was in withdrawal or tapering and with the bad history of heart health problems on my mom's side of the family.....grandfather died of heart attack at 66, mom's brother died at age 52 of heart attack, mom had heart defect, high blood pressure, multiple heart attacks...passed away at 63 and her sister with a heart defect, high blood pressure, etc. the dr. suggested blood pressure medicine.  I told him these palpitations made me anxious so we went with the propranolol instead of metropolol....so far so good.  The propranolol does help with the palpitations and when I walk up hills I don't have as many problems.  I do not believe the root problem of my heart palpitations and issues with walking up hills are due to withdrawal but I do believe withdrawal makes them worse.  

 

For the past two nights I have been able to go to sleep with out trazadone.  I am using melatonin.  I see to sleep in two hour spurts and do wake up several times from 10 pm until 8 am but for the past two nights can get myself back to sleep.  I don't know how long this will last but I hope it continues on this positive trend so I won't have to use trazadone.  

 

For the last few days I have been experiencing parathesia with out pain in my legs and a couple of times in the back of my head....don't know what that is about....I have read the thread on here under symptoms and self care about pins and needles and parathesia....it makes me anxious because it makes me afraid I am going to get akathisia but so far I am able to sit still.  

 

I have also been having some spikes with sudden agitation, anger, irritability which is to be expected....I have had them before but they were different in that they lasted longer were more constant but to as sharp, or intense....these seem to come on pretty quickly, hit hard, but quickly turn into me crying and once I am done crying I feel calm, free, and better....weird huh?  I may be grasping for straws but it makes me almost feel like even though they are sharper, more intense the feelings of agitation are getting better because I can now cry at the end of them and that makes me feel better....I wonder if the crying is a way my body is healing itself?  I hope so.  Any thoughts to this theory?  I think the crying is a result of being frustrated by these mood swings.

[tntd]

Hi DG,

 

I'm glad they are figuring things out with your heart. That must be kind of scary all by itself, especially with your family history. 

 

As far as the crying goes, I still get crying spells and usually feel better afterwards. From what I understand crying reduces cortisol so it makes sense that we would feel better after we cry.  

 

Stress release

Crying is thought to help reduce stress, which can have a damaging effect on our health and has been linked to a number of health problems including heart disease, high blood pressure, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

According to the Minnesota study, crying can help to wash chemicals linked to stress out of our body, one of the reasons we feel much better after a good cry. Higher levels of adrenocorticotrophic (ACTH) have been found in emotional tears (compared to reflex tears).

Removing this chemical from the body is beneficial because it triggers cortisol, the stress hormone – too much of which can lead to health problems associated with stress.

'Crying can help release tension and stress, as well as expressing emotions,' says Dr Abigael San, chartered clinical psychologist.

'When you're upset and stressed, you have an imbalance and build up of chemicals in the body and crying helps to reduce that.'  

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/healthy-living/wellbeing/a10637/the-health-benefits-of-crying/

 

Do you know what the side effects of propranolol are. I just read that insomnia is one but I don't know, other than depresssion, what others there might be. 

I hope your new symptoms start to abate quickly. 

Thinking of you, 

Hugs,

T