downtongirl: I want to become med-free

[scallywag]

downton: 

 

The symptoms you describe could well be caused by Effexor withdrawal.

 

Switching to another drug right now is likely to bounce you around more. Switching formulations to liquid is unlikely to address your symptoms.

 

As far as I can tell you haven't sufficient time where your dose has remained the same; the longest time I can see is close to 2 weeks at 20 mg. You cut dose to 15 mg and held for 5 days. You've now taken 10 mg for 5 days.

t

My thought is that you hold steady at 10 mg Prozac to see if the symptoms ease up. You may need to ride out the waves of symptoms, uncomfortable as they are. I'll ask other moderators to let me know what they think and/or to post directly to you here.

 

Edited to add:

I've been reading your thread. Frankly, I'm puzzled as to why you've tried a Prozac bridge when you haven't had success with it previously. 

 

Unfortunately either your CNS is naturally sensitive or it has been sensitized by many drug changes in a short period of time, since last November.

 

Tapering psych drugs requires a willingness to self-manage with and through symptoms.

 

You need to choose which you want more, to be

- comfortable

-- or--

- off psych drugs.

[savinggrace]

HI Scallywag,

 

Perhaps it would help both downton girl and I if you interpret what you mean as "comfortable." (in the edited post above)

 

My understanding, as I have read and followed this site 5 months daily now, that the goal is to taper while being reasonably comfortable; by not becoming bed-ridden and dysfunctional.  I really struggle with this as I compare myself to those on this site, wondering just how sick I should allow myself to get because of tapering.

 

Do you think it is unreasonable to try to have a  functional life (defined by being able to get out of the house and out of bed, but nothing near normal, perhaps maintaining a few relationships) and taper?

 

 I put up with a long list of withdrawal symptoms every single day and have for 15 years (between dose symptoms before tapering).  My desire to be off psych-drugs has been my biggest wish/goal, but my desire to not miss a decade of my family growing up has prevented me from choosing the bed-ridden route.  I really thought we were supposed to aim our tapering at being reasonably comfortable, but certainly not normal.  I am confused every day by the amount of suffering we are supposed to  live with while trying to get off these poisons.  I am in the last part of a long hold now, and giving my brain time to re-model...I am not comfortable, but I am much more comfortable than I was two months ago.  I suppose there are differing opinions on this, and once someone has successfully tapered, it changes one's point of view.  Maybe you were just trying to say that acceptance and not focusing on symptoms is necessary to make progress?

 

I ask this with sincerity and respect,

Grace

[ChessieCat]

Hi savinggrace,

 

Maybe you were just trying to say that acceptance and not focusing on symptoms is necessary to make progress?

 

My 2 cents worth regarding this:  I believe that accepting something (it is what it is as my boss says to me) and that it is how it is at the present time helps to relieve the stress and anxiety in your body.  This in turn allows your body and brain to do what it needs to do to heal because it is not having to divert its attention to dealing with the stress and anxiety.  For example, when people are stressed and anxious their digestive system slows down.

 

I find this can be difficult to do when I have felt horrible for any length of time so that I forget how I felt on better days.  (A good none AD WD example is having a cold or flu.)  At those times it feels like it will be forever.  When this happens I try to remind myself that this is how I feel at this moment, try to accept it as being temporary and hang in there until things improve.

 

You may have already seen these topics.  I've included them because they may be useful for other members reading your post:

 

acceptance

 

mindfulness-and-acceptance

Edited July 30, 2016 by ChessieCat
Included links

[scallywag]

HI Scallywag,  Perhaps it would help both downton girl and I if you interpret what you mean as "comfortable." (in the edited post above)

 

Grace, perhaps a better way of expressing what I wrote is that there's a choice: "between feeling no discomfort or being off psych drugs."

 

Tapering off psych drugs isn't for everyone.  There is a risk of unpleasant symptoms, as you know. Unfortunately sometimes the only way through the symptoms is through them -- pay attention to the symptoms, bear them, work with non-drug techniques to ease them or cope with them.

 

If you'd like to continue this discussion, let's do that in your introduction thread: savinggrace Introduction

[downtongirl]

Well update....My body is telling me that even the 10 mg of prozac is too much.  Here is what a day is like for me...

 

wake up feeling ok....not good not bad

 

1 hour after being awake I take prozac

 

45 minutes to an hour after taking prozac I beg feeling the following....

 

brain fog, dizzy, drunk, flat, zombie

 

4 - 8 hours after taking the medicine I feel even worse....

 

anxiety, heart palpitations, tightening in the chest, hot flushes, restlessness feeling, jolts of energy in my legs, my heart rate can get to around or a little above a hundred for an hour or so and sometimes has even gotten up to 120 bpm....blood pressure is also very elevated for me....my normal blood pressure is 120 over 70 and my blood pressure can get to 140 over 90 during this time.

 

about 12 hours after taking my medicine...about 9 pm....I start to feel a little relief

 

If I don't take something to help me sleep then it takes me at the least 2 hours to go to sleep.

 

I have had to take 50 mg of trazadone the past 4 nights to sleep...not happy about that but I just don't have the personality to deal with the insomnia and lack of sleep that I have some nights.

 

Don't really know what I want to do....

[Altostrata]

Well, today was a LOT better than yesterday.  I was able to sleep about 7 hours (broken) sleep without a sleep aid.  Last night I took a walk for about an hour and then took a nice long warm epsom salts bath.  Maybe that helped with the sleep.  I dropped back down to 10 mg as I feel the 15 mg is too much.  I may end up some where around 12.5 mg but we will see.  If so I will consider doing a switch to liquid...hoping I can stabilize on 10 mg until next spring.  Today I have felt much more calm and even did a load of laundry, washed dishes, took a shower, put on make up, went to the grocery store, cooked supper, and just took another hour long walk.  I actually felt a little like a normal person.  I am scared that this window won't last long but am hoping it will.  I am no longer taking the L-Methyl Folate and Vitamin B12 as I feel that contributed to some of the problems from last week.

 

What has been your drug intake for the last 7 days??

[downtongirl]

Prozac 10 mg one time a day in the morning around 9 am

 

1 fish oil in the am

 

1 fish oil in the pm

 

50 mg of trazadone for the last 4 nights

 

that is it

[Altostrata]

You may wish to reduce to 9mg Prozac, that's a 10% reduction. Hold at that level for a week and see what happens.

[downtongirl]

ok will do...are you thinking I may be having an adverse reaction to the prozac?

[Altostrata]

Well update....My body is telling me that even the 10 mg of prozac is too much.

 

 

How much discussion does this need?

 

Please put ALL the drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html

and copy and paste the results in this topic.

 

[downtongirl]

 

Interactions between your selected drugs

Major

 

fluoxetine  trazodone

Applies to: Prozac (fluoxetine), trazodone

Using FLUoxetine together with traZODone can increase the risk of a rare but serious condition called the serotonin syndrome, which may include symptoms such as confusion, hallucination, seizure, extreme changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, fever, excessive sweating, shivering or shaking, blurred vision, muscle spasm or stiffness, tremor, incoordination, stomach cramp, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Severe cases may result in coma and even death. You should seek immediate medical attention if you experience these symptoms while taking the medications. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. Your doctor may already be aware of the risks, but has determined that this is the best course of treatment for you and has taken appropriate precautions and is monitoring you closely for any potential complications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

 

[downtongirl]

I am afraid that even 9 mg is too much because I still have the heart racing and anxiety surges....I am thinking I am going to have to go down to 5 mg or even less....I am afraid I can't even take prozac anymore....just feel like giving up....

[scallywag]

downton -- reducing to 5 mg from 10 is always an option. 

 

Mucking about with medications and doses is part of what has destabilized your CNS. Why would you want to risk further destabilization by cutting your dose by 50% in one shot?

[downtongirl]

No I don't want to make things worse but I can't handle this anxious, agitated, irritable, leg feelings either....

[downtongirl]

This maybe a crazy idea but I'm going to ask it anyway....since I have the MTHFR gene mutation which my doctor says make me not metabolize medicines like I should and I am a slow metabolizer of cyp2c19 which prozac is metabolized mainly by cyp2d6 which I have no problems metabolizing with this enzyme but prozac is also metabolized by cyp2c19 maybe since prozac has such a long half life and with my problems being a slow metabolizer it is just too much....I know that some doctors prescribe prozac at 2 mg a day for the week prior to a woman menstrual cycle...has anyone ever taken just a low dosage like 1,2,3,4, or 5 mg just once a week?

[nz11]

You might like to read this

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5547-the-importance-of-mthfr-methylation-and-b-vitamins/?p=185750

 

which can be summed up in one sentence

This gene has made its way on to the do-not-test list more than once, because in almost no cases do the tests have any medical utility.

 

nz11

I think doctors  make these silly comments about genes to dodge their responsibility. If this is the case then why didnt they do this testing before even starting serial prozac bridges.

[downtongirl]

Thanks nz11 I have read this link....yes I am confused as to what to make of the whole gene mutation thing.

 

I just don't think I can take this prozac anymore....it is causing my heart to go crazy and is making me extremely agitated and anxious.....my dr. wants me to go back on a low dosage of klonopin but I don't want to do that.....I have been on prozac for almost 6 weeks and I am getting worse.

[savinggrace]

You know, nz11 (feel free to move my post but it applies to your comment to downton girl)  I tend to think there is some sort of middle ground with these tests.  I am homozygous for MTHFR1298C which is highly correlated with depression, addictions, and schizophrenia...and guess what?   My entire family tree is rife with depression and addictions and I have a seriously schizophrenic sister. (diagnosed and dysfunctional for 40+ years)  Yeah, I know, there are many families like mine unfortunately. Maybe we all have this MTHFR1298C mutation?  Maybe this is where "predisposition" to a disease comes in.  Incidentally, I did not even know I had this mutation until 3 years ago, and you know what I am doing about it? Living with it, so I don't think I was unduly influenced by the information.  I tried the B vitamin supplementation though I knew it wouldn't work before I started, and it didn't.  I try not to give it too much power,  I realize 40% of the population has the MTHFR mutation.  I also know that they are living fine with it...for now anyway....or they're doing okay because their systems/brains are not challenged by these drugs we are on.

 

I agree...having genetic information can be dangerous and have us spinning our wheels over something we can't control. In some cases, though, genetic information is life-saving.  Knowing what kind of a metabolizer you are to psychiatric drugs could save your life.   In my case, had I known I was a slow metabolizer before I was put on this deadly cocktail, I would not have let it happen. I certainly wouldn't have been put on this particular drug combination in which one drug induces the other two (and the doctor was not informed enough to know it)  If our  CYP450 metabolic rate doesn't matter, why can my 99 year old, 85# mother-in-law continue to take handfuls of whatever drugs are put down her throat or in her arm, and be fine, when that same drug combo (or any single drug) would likely kill me?  Genetic information can be very useful if doctors would only consider it before writing a script.

 

The point is...these tests are not entirely useless.  They may be over-used by functional medicine, or appear to be used as an excuse by patients, but I see them as more information to add to the "big picture" when everything seems to be going seriously wrong.

 

Maybe I am just riled up because I spent the day traveling to and from an allergist who gave me an allergy food testing panel  (I did this because my GI guy wanted me to)  and since I didn't go into anaphylactic shock, said I had no allergies, "just maybe some food sensitivities", but thank God, suppressed his laughter when I mentioned histamine intolerance, FODMAPS, candida....I walked away with something akin to a Paleo diet (my goal is to gain weight, not lose more) and a leaflet on the evils of refined carbohydrates (white flour, pasta, etc...haven't touched them in years)  SIgh...that was Western medicine...they don't have the answers either.  Get 'em in and get 'em out!

 

Genetic testing has its place, but probably the doctors should understand it before giving the information to the patient.  It often gets people upset over things they can't control, but it has potential to be a game-changer in prevention and treatment. 

 

Yes, downton girl, you were likely put on too high of a dose to begin with.  Being a slow metabolizer, you may have done well on less (well, none would have been preferable) and now you have to figure out what to do next, as do I...

 

Grace

[nz11]

Dont worry savinggrace i can assure you your post is staying put with me!! lol

 

Knowing what kind of a metabolizer you are to psychiatric drugs could save your life. 

Thats an interesting perspective.

Look i don't know anything about this stuff but show me a person who has been on paxil for ten years and just done a 3 week taper and i'll show you a person who is going to experience some serious suffering regardless of the whatever gene they have or don't have.

 

 

oh yeah downtown girl when it comes to benzos just say 'no'

[downtongirl]

I am familiar with the waves and windows but I have read that there is the acute or initial phase of withdrawal and then some people go from that into post accuse withdrawal syndrome (PAWS)....for those who have experienced both of these phases how long were you in the acute phase and how long were/are in the PAWS phase?  I know this will vary from person to person.  Thanks in advance for your reply.

[savinggrace]

Hi nz11,

 

I don't think the statement about CYP 450 metabolism is a perspective...it is the truth.

 

The ONLY reason I am surviving this cocktail of drugs I am on is because I sensed, years ago, that much, much lower doses of drugs usually prescribed gave me the same effect as the average starting or maintenance dose.  I had no knowledge of CYP enzyme issues back then.  Neither did my doctor.  If I had trusted him, and not listened to my body and paid attention to my symptoms, my doses would have climbed much higher very quickly and, I believe, at worst, I would not be here any more, and at best, things would be much worse than they already are.  The trouble with being a slow metabolizer is two-fold;  drugs accumulate in your body because you can't metabolize them fast enough, and side effects are way stronger almost immediately.  So, yes, this knowledge, and also knowing what one drug does to the other (much like combining benzos and alcohol...commonly understood danger) is paramount to the therapeutic process and the health and safety of the patient.  I think this knowledge, is very much under-estimated and accounts for many harmful and dangerous drug interactions.

 

I acquiesce..."saving your life" may be a strong statement, but in my case now, it would have saved the quality of my life, of which I now have none.

 

"show me a person who has been on paxil for ten years and just done a 3 week taper and i'll show you a person who is going to experience some serious suffering regardless of the whatever gene they have or don't have."  Of course, this is true...but it doesn't invalidate the above explanation.

 

Grace

[downtongirl]

The drop to 9 mg isn't helping so I dropped to 5 mg because I can't handle this agitation....I don't want to resort to going on a benzo....this bridge is not working....I think I am too sensitive to sari's and will probably just have to cold turkey it .  So frustrated!

[Altostrata]

Really? You'll just have to cold turkey? Did you read this?

 

Interactions between your selected drugs

Major fluoxetine  trazodone

Applies to: Prozac (fluoxetine), trazodone

Using FLUoxetine together with traZODone can increase the risk of a rare but serious condition called the serotonin syndrome, which may include symptoms such as confusion, hallucination, seizure, extreme changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, fever, excessive sweating, shivering or shaking, blurred vision, muscle spasm or stiffness, tremor, incoordination, stomach cramp, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Severe cases may result in coma and even death. You should seek immediate medical attention if you experience these symptoms while taking the medications. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. Your doctor may already be aware of the risks, but has determined that this is the best course of treatment for you and has taken appropriate precautions and is monitoring you closely for any potential complications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

 

 

 

What do you think this says?

 

What time of day do you get these unpleasant feelings?

[downtongirl]

Hello Alto....I had these symptoms on just the prozac before adding in the trazadone.

 

My daily pattern is...

 

8 - 9 am wake up feeling so very tired, flat, and depressed

 

9:30 am eat breakfast take prozac and fish oil

 

11:30 anxiety, hot flash, agitation

 

1:30 pm eat lunch

 

3 pm - 9 pm big increase in anxiety, hot flashes, irritability, agitation, frustration, restlessness, heart palpitations, increased heart rate, increased blood pressure

 

10:30 pm 50 mg of trazadone

 

Like I said I had these symptoms for over a month some of them when I was on effexor xr so I don't think it is because of adding the trazadone.

[downtongirl]

what do you think if I were to try 2.5 mg or even 2 or 1.5 or 1?

[Altostrata]

We've discussed drug changes before. Do you remember the rule regarding drug changes?

[downtongirl]

I do but I can't handle this agitation that prozac is giving me.

[Altostrata]

You need to give any drug change 4 days to fully register in your system. If you keep on changing dosage, you're just doing it randomly -- which is what you've been doing all along.

 

I am confused why you ask questions here about what to do, since you do what you want anyway. So, do what you think is best.

[grandmaD]

I am afraid that even 9 mg is too much because I still have the heart racing and anxiety surges....I am thinking I am going to have to go down to 5 mg or even less....I am afraid I can't even take prozac anymore....just feel like giving up....

Hi there, I had a quick read of your journal and was astonished to find you thinking the EXACT same way as myself!  We both want to GET OFF NOW!  And perhaps that's our problem!  Due to palpitations, insomnia, breathlessness, etc I came to believe it was the the Paxil doing it to me and tried to go faster too, though a lot more cautiously than you, and even that made things worse for myself.  It is just so hard to accept it is the withdrawal and the only answer is to go slower!  That is a good link on acceptance, I  need to read that later on!

[grandmaD]

The drop to 9 mg isn't helping so I dropped to 5 mg because I can't handle this agitation....I don't want to resort to going on a benzo....this bridge is not working....I think I am too sensitive to sari's and will probably just have to cold turkey it .  So frustrated!

I say this all the time also!  The temptation is always there to CT - I have to fight it all the time - all the time.  How amazing.  It is the frustration I believe that drives us to make these decisions.  Of course the dr. can prescribe a benzo to calm us down - and then that brings on its own demons.  We are certainly between a rock and a hard place!  I haven't finished reading your journal yet, but pray you can find a place of peace.  I have just made the decision to quit tapering and have not entirely accepted it, but for the time being have resigned myself to staying on this dose forever or doing a switch to Prozac.

[grandmaD]

I do but I can't handle this agitation that prozac is giving me.

This is precisely what I have to fight also, I cannot handle the stressed out feeling all the time.  Perhaps you are in the same place as me, and need to stop tapering and stabilise.  What other choice is there if you want to remain sane!  How much prozac are you on now and for how long at that dose?

[downtongirl]

Hello GrandmaD thanks for stopping by.  I have been down to 5 mg for a couple of days and it is still too activating for me.  I spend the morning in an entire fog glued in my chair then the afternoon and evening with bad agitation and anxiety....I have a doctors appointment this Friday with my psychiatrist.  If I am not better by then I will talk to him about either stopping trying something different.  I am thinking about if I am not better by Friday of trying buspar for anxiety which I took a few years ago.  I don't want to take anything but I have got to get something to calm this anxiety...I would rather try that before I try a benzo.

[downtongirl]

Has anyone taken a powder supplement that you can make into a drink called Magnesium Serene?  It is made by source naturals/Serene Science.  The ingredients are as follows...

 

Vitamin C 1 mg

 

Magnesium Citrate 800 mg

 

Sodium 86 gm? 

 

I know that magnesium is suggested as a good supplement here and I have had good success with magnesium glycinate before just wondering about this particular magnesium powder?

[scallywag]

800 mg magnesum is a high dose to start with. It's better to try supplements that have only one active ingredient. This has both vitamin C and magnesium.

[Altostrata]

downton, we've been telling you your inconsistency in dosing is causing problems. One of those problems is that, when you change your dosage all the time, we can't tell if what you have is a reaction to the drug or a reaction to the change (withdrawal symptoms).

 

Given what you've been up to, all any doctor can do is guess. If you want to do trial and error with other psychiatric drugs, we can't help you with that.

 

Please use search in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum for information about supplements.

[downtongirl]

Alto I did a search for magnesium serene in the symptoms and self care and did not see it there.