downtongirl: I want to become med-free

[downtongirl]

hello....I haven't had any response to my updates and really could use one...I don't know if the 20 mg is too much or not...would one of the moderators please read my last updates from last week and respond.....thank you very much!

[scallywag]

The symptoms are likely still w/d from Effexor.  Your last dose of Effexor during the switch was June 23 or 24 and you went from 37.5 mg to 0. It's a big jump even when you're crossing with Prozac.

 

Melatonin is best used to assist sleep onset in the evening and usually doesn't need to be taken nightly in perpetuity. It's a hormone we make naturally so long term replacement isn't a great idea.

[downtongirl]

thank you scalawag....so you don't feel these feelings of increased anxiety in my legs are due to akathisia due to prozac?

[scallywag]

I don't know and can't give you an answer that you can "take to the bank." It's just more likely that what you're dealing with is a symptom of w/d from cutting Effexor.  It's one of the challenges with the Prozac switch -- it's hard to tell what's causing symptoms.

[downtongirl]

I know this is so frustrating....I was so fatigued and flat on effexor like a zombie and from what I have read prozac is a more stimulating antidepressant for most people so I am hoping that is what this is....I am so scared of getting akathisia....how do you know the difference between energized, irritable and akathisia?

[savinggrace]

When I get it, it is a physical response in which I have to keep moving because of an unrelenting physical restlessness as in restless leg syndrome, but all over. Makes me want to shake, move, pound my body to stop the feeling.

 

I think that's akathisia.

 

Grace

[downtongirl]

Grace I am not sure if that is what I have....I can sit still for extended period of time but just feel more wide awake with more energy and an urgency to get tasks done....I am paranoid of having akathisia...I am still able to sleep at night

[savinggrace]

Doesn't sound like akathisia to me at all. It sounds a little manic, though I don't think you would be sleeping it it's real mania. I think you need to push those worries about akathisia out of your brain as best you can. Akathisia makes you feel CRAZY...that's not what you are describing.

 

Grace

[downtongirl]

Thanks saving grace I hope you are right....I hope you feel better soon!  Hugs!

[savinggrace]

I know you're suffering but the fact that you can sleep is amazing. I NEVER sleep normally.

 

I would channel that energy into something productive or distracting. I get data that I get "manic-like" and I get so much done!! I'm usually on the couch. Not Who I am at all but who I have become on these drugs.

 

Tomorrow will be better. It's the only way I get through most days.

 

As soon as I can, I want to discuss the MTHFR stuff w/ you. I do not take Deplin nor do I tolerate B vitamins and I am deficient, especially in B12. . Kinda explains my over-active nervous system. I work hard at not thinking about it and living "clean" to compensate.

 

Big hug back,

Grace

[downtongirl]

Ok sounds good...pm me back when you feel up to it.

[downtongirl]

I don't know whether this transition to prozac from effexor is working.....some symptoms have improved but others are worse....

 

energy.....worse I feel very flat and unmotivated

sleep.....is worse I had to take trazadone last night to sleep

depression....I am not sure if this is better more like the same....I just don't care about much of anything and feel very unmotivated

appetite....loss of appetite 

nausea....some nausea

headache....some increase in headache

 

brain zaps....are a little better

anxiety....some better but I do feel irritable...I don't know if this is due to prozac or that I am just tired and fed up with this process

hot flashes....not having as many

 

I don't remember feeling this way last summer when I switched from effexor to prozac.....I am so frustrated I really don't think I will ever get better.  I know I am experiencing startup side effects from prozac but I just don't know how long they will last or if they will ever get better.

[scallywag]

dg: Sorry that your suffereing wasn't relieved as quickly as you'd hoped. It's still early days after the full switch. It's best to keep things stable rather than mucking about with more changes.

[downtongirl]

thanks scalawag I just don't remember feeling this bad in the past with starting or switching antidepressants....is this pretty normal for starting or switching them?

[savinggrace]

Hi,

 

I am very sorry you feel worse and feel that the cross-over may not be working. I am in a somewhat similar situation. I decided on a long hold, but I feel I am getting markedly worse after a 2 week window. The decisions of what path to take next do weigh us down. I think it is likely you have become more sensitized to changes over the last year. That is definitely what has happened to me and not just with my meds. So it just might be that it will take longer to settle into this switch than it did last time. I don't think it means it isn't working. It just isn't working yet. If only we could fast forward...

 

Grace

[downtongirl]

thanks grace for stopping by it means a lot to me....which medicine are you doing a long hold on?

[savinggrace]

Well, technically trileptal. I cut ambien with a crossover to Valium, cut Valium very very slowly. . When I hit a wall in cutting Valium, I started cutting trileptal. I cut about a third and then felt I needed to give my brain a chance to catch up. About a 30% from my toxic load in 7 years, which sounds ridiculous but I have been on p-drugs for 35 years and have many previous co-existing conditions to manage, and some serious conditions that I believe are the result of the drugs. I have absolutely no idea which way to go right now. I am at a place of severe fatigue which is totally disabling. So is the hold just giving my brain time to catch up and these are healing symptoms as I hoped, or is the hold and the new "ratio" of drugs causing side effects to worsen? I feel completely defeated today. I have so much to live for, but on days like these, I don't want to.

 

I always hold hope for tomorrow though it is becoming increasingly difficult. Thanks for listening. I feel like we are both in a very tenuous place. I think the MTHFR stuff doesn't help.

 

Big hug,

Grace

[downtongirl]

Well, technically trileptal. I cut ambien with a crossover to Valium, cut Valium very very slowly. . When I hit a wall in cutting Valium, I started cutting trileptal. I cut about a third and then felt I needed to give my brain a chance to catch up. About a 30% from my toxic load in 7 years, which sounds ridiculous but I have been on p-drugs for 35 years and have many previous co-existing conditions to manage, and some serious conditions that I believe are the result of the drugs. I have absolutely no idea which way to go right now. I am at a place of severe fatigue which is totally disabling. So is the hold just giving my brain time to catch up and these are healing symptoms as I hoped, or is the hold and the new "ratio" of drugs causing side effects to worsen? I feel completely defeated today. I have so much to live for, but on days like these, I don't want to.

 

I always hold hope for tomorrow though it is becoming increasingly difficult. Thanks for listening. I feel like we are both in a very tenuous place. I think the MTHFR stuff doesn't help.

 

Big hug,

Grace

 

I know how you feel....I have not been on trileptal but many other drugs over the past almost 21 years....I have not been able to work since January and I am so tired of forcing my way through each day.  I feel like the 20 mg of prozac is too much....All i have been able to do today is eat a little bit, sit in my chair, surf the internet, and was able to take a brief shower....the 20 mg make me feel completely like I am a zombie, like I am in a trance....I am so tired and sleepy but can not sleep....I just don't know what to do....I know holding is crucial but I just don't feel I can spend many more days just sitting in the chair so sad, depressed, and agitated like I did today....

[savinggrace]

Admittedly, I have not read your whole thread but I know you did a cross-over. I don't know if this applies, but years ago I crossed over from klonopin to Valium. The doc and I weren't sure of the exact equivalent dose for me, but agreed if I felt more sedated on the Valium than the klonopin, we would lessen the dose a bit which we did. It worked. I don't want to interfere with your plan, but are you wondering if this 20 mg is too much; if you would be better off on a tad lower dose? Food for thought...always thinking because I can't do anything else. Your day today sounds markedly different than yesterday, btw.

 

Grace

[nz11]

Sorry you are in this most difficult place downtongirl.

I hope its 3rd time lucky.

[downtongirl]

NZ11....thanks for stopping by and giving me good wishes.....I hope you are having a goo day!

[downtongirl]

Grace....I have gone back and looked over my daily log and here are my thoughts based on my symptoms....

 

May 26th I started my taper of effexor in order to get as low as I could before adding prozac...going from 150 mg of effexor xr to 112.5 mg effexor xr

 

May 30th....cut effexor xr from 112.5 mg to 75 mg.....began to feel more clear headed and not so overdrugged

 

June 9th....tried to go to 37.5 mg.....felt pretty good...more  motivation and positive energy....this lasted for 3 days until withdrawal symptoms showed up in the form of body aches, joint pain, insomnia, dizziness, etc.

 

June 13th went back to 75 mg of effexor xr and symptoms improved some

 

June 17th.....added 10 mg of prozac to 37.5 mg of effexor xr

 

June 21st....just 10 mg of prozac no effexor xr

 

June 22nd....withdrawal symptoms popping up again

 

June 21st - present day trying to find a dosage of prozac that is not to much in the way of making me a total zombie but yet help with as many of the effexor withdrawal symptoms as I can.

 

The two times I have done a effexor - prozac bridge I overlapped the prozac with the effexor for a longer period of time....the first time in 2010 I took 6 months to go from effexor to prozac.  I had gotten my effexor down from 150 mg to 37.5 mg over six months then the dr. added buspar and prozac while I was still taking trazadone to do the transition over another 6 months.

 

The last time I did a effexor - prozac switch/bridge was last summer and I took about a month to overlap the two....

 

I was trying to do the method suggested here with only using a two week overlap and i think for me that it was too fast but never the less I am here now trying to find a dosage of prozac that I can live with for a while.....

 

20 mg makes me a zombie.....10 mg doesn't cover the effexor withdrawal enough so to answer you question yes I do feel somewhere between 10 mg and 20 mg might need to be tried.  

 

I am going to try 15 mg today.....what are your thoughts?

[savinggrace]

Since there are no hard and fast answers for anyone, sometimes we just have to try. My weakness often is is to not wait long enough to see if the change works. So if you think you are up to trying, then I think you should. Just think how much less you would have to taper later. You also could consider 17.5 if that is do-able....I don't know how you are tapering (scale, water, etc)

 

Go with your gut. Unfortunately sometimes our guts are too sick to give us a clear signal so then you come here. You can also consider roughing 20 mg out a tad longer to see if it works, but I sense you feel it won't already.

 

Grace

[downtongirl]

Ok would appreciate your thoughts....I agree stability is essential and I am trying my best for that but I have been having a hard time finding the right dosage of prozac to stay on.

 

Yesterday I took 20 mg and that was too much.  Today I dropped down to 15 mg and things have been better.  Today I have had more life in me.  Actually put on make up.  The symptoms that are better from today as opposed to yesterday are...

 

more alert

not so sad

not so flat

not feeling like I am in a trance

Not as weepy feeling

have actually felt some pleasure today

 

I have had a few more brain zaps and I have had a couple more of these anxious feelings in my legs that build up over a minute or so and sometimes are accompanied with an energy jolt like through my body and I have had more pronounced heart beats with a few palpitations than I did yesterday but I prefer the way I feel today over yesterday.

 

I am hoping and praying to stabilize on no more than the 15 mg.  If I can build on the good feelings of today and nothing gets worse than today then I plan to hold until at the least September.  

 

I have been on the site looking at so many different things today and I was hoping for some help there is a graph that shows at different dosages of antidepressants an approximate percentage of neurotransmitters that are occupied...I can't figure out at around 15 mg of prozac what percentage of my receptors the prozac is occupying...can someone help me figure this out?

 

Also, if I am able to stabilize on 15 mg of prozac and hold there for a while if I were to begin a 10% gradual taper that is recommended here approximately how long would it take to complete that taper...I think there is a graph for that too but I can't find it.  

 

Thanks and hugs to all!

[Yogagirl38]

Hi downtongirl, i only read your first entry on page one if this thread and your last entry. YOU CAN DO THIS and shame on your psychiatrist for saying" you have been on meds since 1995 and will be on them forever." Who is she to say that to you? It seems to be a pattern that maybe the problem is when you try to wean down they give you something else to take along with that and then you have to get off that as well like now with the prozac. I think you just need to put your foot down and slowly wean down from just one drug. Get off the prozac first and foremost. In my experience wean down slow. So slow like wean down a little and stay there about 8 weeks before you wean down again. And you may feel good and ready to wean faster but don't do it. Take it slow. Also address anticipatory anxiety. If you are scared of discontinuation syndrome, it makes the process that much worse. Lean meditation and breathing techniques. This is so helpful and the only way to snap out of something before it gets out of control and leads to full blown panic attack.

Another thing is stay hydrated. Dehydration can make weird physical feelings happen which in a heightened state can start a freak out. Also, eat whole grains and really limit refined carbs because they hit the bloodstream faster and being that these drugs make people hyperaware, you will feel the normal carb coma but that can set off anxiety and panic because of how these drugs make us so hyperaware. Aim for Mediterranean style diet which i think is most helpful, especially with antioxidants to get rid of free radicals. Learn qigong, yoga, or some other ancient art and do it daily like 30 minutes a day. Do CBT.

Most importantly expose yourself to what you are scared of once a day and face it head on but within your control. Make sure you are free to leave and get away when you want. For example, florescent lighting in stores triggered my face to spasm. I started to develop a real fear of stores becayse of trying to hide my face. But then one day i was like this us ridiculous. I need to expose myself without my glasses and without looking down and if people stare then so be it. If i freak out i freak out. So i went in a store without my glasses (they helped to block the light) and i actually didnt spasm. After about 20 minutes though i felt my face acting up so i left. But i was proud i went in that store without my glasses. And each day i kept forcing myself to do that longer and longer and now i am fine. I am 20 days free of zoloft. My last time i had facial grimacing was like 4 days ago but only for like 2 minutes. But i always think if i am out in public (this used to make me not want to leave my house) and i start getting spasms or tremors i am not going to hide. I am going to ask for help. Or i will say "excuse me, dont mind me, this will stop soon, its just a spasm". So remember to challenge yourself little by little and take baby steps. I wish u well. Screw these idiotic docs that keep dealing out legal poison! You can do it and just remember when you act weird, that is not you. That is the drug. You will go back to you but it takes much time and patience

[savinggrace]

Oh downtown girl,

I am so happy we both had a better day.

 

I have a suggestion, hoping it is received with the care with which it is given....

 

Why don't you hold on the Prozac for a while, at least a month, maybe more because of the crossover, and just don't worry about how long a 10% taper will take, just for now. The thing is, there is no telling if 10% will be too aggressive, and if you will need holds, etc. Forget about the calendar and focus on now. I desperately want all the answers for me right now as well, but I learned quite some time ago that I am not in control of a lot of this process. Our brains are stubborn little buggers and they will let us know when they are ready. (Or at least we hope they will). If they don't, you can come to SA for help, but for now, try hard to hold onto this feeling that you are on the right track.

 

Hoping tomorrow is an even better day...

Grace

[downtongirl]

Awwww Yogagirl38 thank you so much for your post!  This means so much to me!  I love your thoughts...you should be a counselor/therapist!  I know you are right and I will try adopting your thoughts and feelings about fear!  Congratulations on being zoloft free!  How are you doing?

[downtongirl]

Hello my sweet Grace!  I totally agree...If I can stabilize and continue to feel better on 15 mg I intend to stay there for a good long while....at the least until September if not longer....I have considered if I can get rid of these anxiety surges and my sleep doesn't decline that I would hold through the fall, winter and not try to taper until maybe March of 2017.  I am glad you had a better day!  I cried during my prayers last night and begged God for help....he came through!

[scallywag]

downton: the research paper is in this thread Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

[Yogagirl38]

Oh wow thanks so much downtongirl! I am doing great. I really cant believe it actually. I had so many failed times trying to get off it over the years (i was on it 15 years) that if you asked me last year i would have said "i guess i am stuck on it for life". This time though with the 6 month taper, I didn't get discontinuation syndrome. I have a super long post on this forum, today was my first time posting, this is a great forum i think. I have swollen lymph nodes but my doctor said it's probably from the zoloft. On Pfizers website that is another rare side effect. The last time i tried to go off it my atypical lymphocytes were high and that's usualky from mono (where you also get lymphadenitis) but the mono spot test was negative and all other labs were normal so it definitely just looks like the zoloft effects the lymphatic system as well. I am not even worried about it. On zoloft, it actually made me act in a "health anxiety" way because it makes you hyperaware of things you would normally just brush off. I get headaches but they are manageable. I am doing great, no facial grimacing, only some fasiculations but huge decrease. No tremors or spasms any more. My biggest obstacle to overcome throughout this process was my fear of getting discontinuation syndrome again and I didn't get it! I knew i just had to look fear in the face becayse running from it was getting me nowhere and making me worse. Now, whatever scares me, i just face it so i can overcome it. It is the hardest thing to do but something you gotta do. I only had increased anxiety days 7-12 i would say. Then that completeky went away but i had severe anger/rage for like 3 days. But now i just feel normal and good and positive. I think i am back to the old me. And we can all be back to our old selves. Our brains just have to go back to normal and get used to reuptaking serotonin and dopamine again and the brain does do that once it normalizes. You will get there! Just be patient and when you think "will i be like this forever?" Just know that no you won't. Your brain will eventually readjust. And anybody (including doctor or spychiatrist) that tells you you can't do that then you will prove them wrong! Yes you will ????

[downtongirl]

Thanks Scally....from what I could discern it looks like at about 15 mg it is about 70 - 75% receptor occupancy.  Interesting.

[Yogagirl38]

On a side note, my friend, a well respected nurse, has been on lexapro for years. Recently she started seeing a therapist and the therapist puts her on wellbutrin 150 mg bid i think she said. THEN the therapist tells her to try meditation. AB-freakin-surd that is so ass backwards. The therapist, in my mind, should have said FIRST to try meditation and CBT and ONLY THEN if that was not enough to help THEN take the wellbutrin. Is it helping her any? NO! I know my friend and yes she has stress from her job and depression from not being able to have kids but can she address this without medication? YES SHE CAN! But no she now is on lexapro and wellbutrin at heavy duty doses. And the sad thing was when we talked the other day she said to me "i cant get off lexapro. Im stuck on it for life". That just made me sad for her and sad people are thinking this way because nobody is supplying people with the correct tools to get off these meds. I was in her shoes, too. So i know where she is coming from. I hate seeing perfectly good people with normal life stressors and right away docs are so quick to prescribe this junk without weighing the many options that exist out there to get better without medicine. Arrrggggg

[downtongirl]

Oh Yogagirl38....how I wish someone would have pointed me in the direction of an excellent cbt therapist and natural supplements almost 21 years ago before I ever put the first prescription pill in my mouth....I honestly don't think I would have ended up on prescription medicine but it is what it is....I just hope and pray and have asked Jesus to let me use this horrible experience to help others.

[downtongirl]

Good morning all....I have a question about the supplement Seriphos ....I had my cortisol tested back in the winter and as usual I am opposite of most "normal" people   and my cortisol levels are drastically low until around late afternoon and then they begin rising and stay high until early in the morning.  I have been doing a lot of research and when I brought this up to my integrative doctor they said they thought Seriphos would be a good idea to try.  I have been noticing for a long time that I am so flat in the mornings and don't start feeling I am awake until noon and then when my cortisol begins to rise in late afternoon my anxiety raises then in the evening around suppertime the anxiety can level off but at bed time I may be physically tired and yawn but mentally can't turn my brain off to sleep.  I know this has to do with withdrawal but was wondering if anyone thinks it would be bad to give Seriphos a try tonight?  I am trying to not take prescription sleep meds.....thanks in advance.

[apace41]

Downton,

 

Here is the link to the discussion of this supplement from the site:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3782-phosphatydilserine-aka-phosphatidyl-serine-seriphos-or-cortiphos/

 

Rather than reinvent the wheel. 

 

Best,

 

Andy

[downtongirl]

Thanks Andy....I have read it and from what I see some people saw some good results but some says it wears off....just confused.