success ☼ MrAnxious: 3 months off Effexor XR (6 years on)

[basildev]

But time monitoring can 'get' you in other ways Strawb - even counting the number of hours sleep you had the next day adds to the misery. And there are many other ways you can sneakily monitor time other than using a clock.

 

The book explains why insomniacs do these kinds of things and it's very insightful. I saw myself in a great many chapters of this book.

 

It's definitely worth a read!

[Altostrata]

You could use the benzo sparingly and at the lowest effective dosage. Even a quarter of a pill or a crumb might work for sleep.

[MrAnxious]

Mr. A,

 

Last summer when I found out I had sleep apnea (it has helped me SO much to treat that, I went off a benzo and of course had major insomnia. What finally helped me was to limit my sleep. For example, if I was only sleeping 3 hours, I made myself stay up until 3 hrs. Before I had to get up, then extended it a bit the next night. My pdoc said it's called avoidance therapy. But I was on many other meds, so that probably made it easier for me. And while I was in a very uneducated tapering of an antipsychotic, I restarted the benzo...so I'll get to do it again. Pulling for you!

[/quote

 

 

Sounds very interesting that angle, and the only thing is I can't risk doing that right now as it is vital to get even sleeping pill induced sleep for my body to atleast have the energy to move on into the next day. I really hope the sleep trial makes a big difference. I am almost hoping that I have sleep apnea so I can deal with it and move on, narrowing down my evils and found out the next best way to treat things, thanks alot for your response. I am learning a great deal of everything from everyone that reads and responds. I wish you best of luck in your journey and let me know if I can be of any help

[MrAnxious]

It all seems like a crapshoot, like they need a pill for withdrawal. talk to you later my friend, thanks for the reply. I hope you get more sleep as well.

Aaaah....a PILL for withdrawal - if only!

 

I'm sorry to say that I tried Seriphos (I've tried EVERYTHING) and it had the opposite effect - I woke up every hour on the hour and still had early morning waking.

 

I'm glad you've booked a sleep test just to put your mind at rest. But it sounds like plain old garden variety withdrawal to me.

 

At the moment I'm putting into practise some of the steps from a book called 'sound sleep, sound mind' (see link below):

 

http://sleeptreatment.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1750

 

Mr. A, I'm not a big fan of sleep tips or insomnia books as they all seem to harp on about the same thing (sleep hygiene schmeep hygiene!! GRRRR.)

 

When you're in withdrawal none of this advice seems to make any difference. BUT one thing I'm working on after reading this book is my tendency to 'lose sleep over losing sleep'. One of my biggest downfalls is time monitoring(watching the clock) and I'm trying to wean myself off that.

 

You might not be in the right frame of mind to read this book at the moment but if you are, I highly recommend it. The author is a sleep specialist , and while few sleep specialists are familiar with withdrawal, he does make some very interesting points that I was not aware of before I read the book.

 

If you can get even one useful tip from the book (I got several), then it will be worth it.

 

The way I see it, you may not be able to do much about the physical effects of withdrawal, but you can always work on your mind and the way you react to your situation. In my opinion, that's the REAL battle (for me at least).

 

 

Hey ! I clicked on the link but the only way is to buy the book, do you know if their are any copies free of use online ? Maybe I will have to check for a torrent. This sounds like a very interesting read as I love to read and I think it would benefit me greatly as your advice does. I really appreciate every comment and reply as I am learning so much about withdrawa and within this battle their is a silver lining. I am seeing life in a different light throughout my battles and uplifting moments. As humans we are capable of really anything we set our minds too and even in our darkest moments we are enlightened on who we are and what we want and where we want to go.

 

This has been so trying on the body and mind, but their has to be a reason for it and it's the journey that will take us to that deeper meaning. (Here is too hoping) Hey what are our other options ,right.

 

 

How are you making out over there? Are things getting better for you Basil ? Let me know what you have learned throughout all this, i'd like that.

 

 

Take care for now

[MrAnxious]

You could use the benzo sparingly and at the lowest effective dosage. Even a quarter of a pill or a crumb might work for sleep.

 

 

Thanks Alto, it's amazing. I was looking at so many posts here and there and different forum and I always come across your name, would love to put a face to you, any pictures circulate ? Just you have given so much precious advice to people and are educating people, just want to thank you for all your help. You are a crusader for withdrawal and I really appreciate what you are doing to help people.

 

I really have to limit any benzo use and sleeping pill use because I can feel how you can fall so easily right back into the trap of supplementing to make withdrawal feel easier and better. It's just so hard when you put yourself into stressful situations such as school etc, when you need to better yourself so you can survive and find a job etc. I am so lucky to have this forum and the support.

 

 

Thank you thank you thank you, and I hope one day we are all better and more wiser and can truly enjoy life.

[MrAnxious]

I know what you mean about books about insomnia and sleep hygiene grrrr. I would say though, I never ever look at a clock or the time in the middle of the night when I can't sleep it just ramps up my anxiety further and makes it even less likely that I'll nod off.

 

 

I totally agree with that 100% , but it's always a relief knowing how much time you have to "possibly sleep" the worst is looking at it and knowing you have to get up in 5 mins and your completely exhausted and know that you have to get up for the day and be active and involved.

 

Take care strawberry and thanks for your responses, help me out so much

[basildev]

Hi Mr. A,

 

I'm hanging in there. My sleep's not great but it's not zero either. The one thing I've been able to do (so far) since reading this book is avoid the temptation to fix the problem with a benzo.

 

Yes you do have to buy the book but it's well worth it. I bought the kindle version which is about $10.00. I'd share it with you but you can't do that with Kindle books.

 

I really do encourage you to invest in this book, Mr. A - you will see yourself in almost every point his guy makes. It really opens your eyes as to how we make your own situation worse by:

 

1) time monitoring;

 

When I first read the authors' suggestion regarding avoiding ALL forms of time monitoring I felt a deep seated fear - how will I know if I'm making progress? How will I know how much sleep I'm getting?

 

But there's a method to his madness and you really have to read the book to understand it. Here's an excerpt:

 

When you monitor time in bed, you are creating a learned behavior that prevents sleep. You desire sleep, but you engage in a behavior that alerts you and speeds up your brain waves. Once alert, spying the clock or figuring time points gives you a sense of control over your lack of sleep, but this useless feeling of control blocks your natural Wave of Sleepiness from washing over your mind-body to carry you to sleep. In virtually all circumstances when you monitor time or make calculations about sleep quantity while lying awake in bed, you are teaching your mind-body that the bedroom is not a place to sleep. The bed and the bedroom are where you watch clocks and worry about time. As with many learned habits, you connected two behaviors: checking the time and not sleeping, which fuel sleeplessness. To paraphrase Yogi’s question, “How can you think and sleep at the same time?” The more obsessed you become with time—mulling over the time it takes to fall asleep, the number of times you wake up, the number of hours of sleep you will or will not get, and the time you must wake up in the morning—the more time infects your sleep so your day is never done. This infection spreads through the mind-body, speeds up the brain, and soon destroys your sleep quality...."

 

 

 

2) staying 'chained to the bed' when there's no way we're going to sleep

 

Here's an excerpt from the book:

 

The single most common sleep control behavior is spending more time in bed, hoping to increase sleep hours. In what always turns into a classic, self-defeating, learned behavior, the troubled sleeper thinks he is exerting the maximum control over his sleep by predicting “more time in bed equals more time asleep.” It sounds logical, doesn’t it? It might work once in a blue moon. Over time, this control strategy fails because it prevents you from letting sleep happen. Worse, once you are frozen to the mattress, you are teaching yourself to stay in bed and not sleep, arguably the worst learned sleep behavior you could ever adopt. And that’s only the beginning. While not sleeping in bed, aggravating and frustrating feelings emerge that cripple your efforts to achieve mental and emotional closure at day’s end. Soon you sleep even fewer hours, despite lying in bed for longer periods. As maddening as lying awake in bed feels, an enormous number of problematic sleepers are mesmerized by this behavior, which rarely breathes new life into their sleep. Control appeals to most problematic sleepers because most are fairly intelligent, so it seems logical to try to think their way out of their sleep problems. But the more time they spend thinking about sleep, especially while lying awake in bed, a bad habit develops, closure vanishes, sleep quality worsens, hours of sleep shorten, and the old adage is reversed, “More is less.”

 

This book really DOES contain some gems - I highly recommend it.

[strawberry17]

I can relate to those gems.

[MrAnxious]

Hi Mr. A,

 

I'm hanging in there. My sleep's not great but it's not zero either. The one thing I've been able to do (so far) since reading this book is avoid the temptation to fix the problem with a benzo.

 

Yes you do have to buy the book but it's well worth it. I bought the kindle version which is about $10.00. I'd share it with you but you can't do that with Kindle books.

 

I really do encourage you to invest in this book, Mr. A - you will see yourself in almost every point his guy makes. It really opens your eyes as to how we make your own situation worse by:

 

1) time monitoring;

 

When I first read the authors' suggestion regarding avoiding ALL forms of time monitoring I felt a deep seated fear - how will I know if I'm making progress? How will I know how much sleep I'm getting?

 

But there's a method to his madness and you really have to read the book to understand it. Here's an excerpt:

 

When you monitor time in bed, you are creating a learned behavior that prevents sleep. You desire sleep, but you engage in a behavior that alerts you and speeds up your brain waves. Once alert, spying the clock or figuring time points gives you a sense of control over your lack of sleep, but this useless feeling of control blocks your natural Wave of Sleepiness from washing over your mind-body to carry you to sleep. In virtually all circumstances when you monitor time or make calculations about sleep quantity while lying awake in bed, you are teaching your mind-body that the bedroom is not a place to sleep. The bed and the bedroom are where you watch clocks and worry about time. As with many learned habits, you connected two behaviors: checking the time and not sleeping, which fuel sleeplessness. To paraphrase Yogi’s question, “How can you think and sleep at the same time?” The more obsessed you become with time—mulling over the time it takes to fall asleep, the number of times you wake up, the number of hours of sleep you will or will not get, and the time you must wake up in the morning—the more time infects your sleep so your day is never done. This infection spreads through the mind-body, speeds up the brain, and soon destroys your sleep quality...."

 

 

 

2) staying 'chained to the bed' when there's no way we're going to sleep

 

Here's an excerpt from the book:

 

The single most common sleep control behavior is spending more time in bed, hoping to increase sleep hours. In what always turns into a classic, self-defeating, learned behavior, the troubled sleeper thinks he is exerting the maximum control over his sleep by predicting “more time in bed equals more time asleep.” It sounds logical, doesn’t it? It might work once in a blue moon. Over time, this control strategy fails because it prevents you from letting sleep happen. Worse, once you are frozen to the mattress, you are teaching yourself to stay in bed and not sleep, arguably the worst learned sleep behavior you could ever adopt. And that’s only the beginning. While not sleeping in bed, aggravating and frustrating feelings emerge that cripple your efforts to achieve mental and emotional closure at day’s end. Soon you sleep even fewer hours, despite lying in bed for longer periods. As maddening as lying awake in bed feels, an enormous number of problematic sleepers are mesmerized by this behavior, which rarely breathes new life into their sleep. Control appeals to most problematic sleepers because most are fairly intelligent, so it seems logical to try to think their way out of their sleep problems. But the more time they spend thinking about sleep, especially while lying awake in bed, a bad habit develops, closure vanishes, sleep quality worsens, hours of sleep shorten, and the old adage is reversed, “More is less.”

 

This book really DOES contain some gems - I highly recommend it.

 

 

Thank you Basil, I am definitely gonna utilize the whole not looking at the clock practice. It makes sense, sounds like it will be a hard habit to break but once you get into the habit it will be very beneficial. Sleep has to be the number one concern for somebody that is in withdrawal. It's very hard to wake up exhausted everyday and hold hope that you will recover. Like so much rely's on sleep like anxiety and other physical symptoms. I really appreciate you putting excerpts of the book on the posts,

 

YOU ROCK BASIL ! You have been a great help on this journey.

[Altostrata]

Unfortunately, there's a video of me talking in the "protest" topic in the Events forum.

 

Please don't tag me, folks -- privacy issues.

[MrAnxious]

Unfortunately, there's a video of me talking in the "protest" topic in the Events forum.

 

Please don't tag me, folks -- privacy issues.

 

 

I don't get it , who tagged you ???Lost..

[strawberry17]

I'm confused as well because I've already seen your video on FB?

[strawberry17]

Unfortunately, there's a video of me talking in the "protest" topic in the Events forum.

 

Please don't tag me, folks -- privacy issues.

 

I'm confused?

[MrAnxious]

Question : Why is it that when I decide to actually drink and say have 4-5 drinks i feel so good and have great introspection and actually feel normal and happy ? I know this is what booze does but does it go beyond that with withdrawal ? Like I wish the feeling would last, and i know that's how alcoholic think and I really don't drink too often but when it makes me feel like this, would it make sense to have a few drinks here and then more often ? Like I still feel the cortisol racing through me at some times of the day and when i was drinking but hey feels better than feeling horrible.

 

 

Any interesting facts?

[alex]

You are playing with fire.

[strawberry17]

I wouldn't go there, yes it is nice to drink once in a while, I do, but you're talking about using like a medicinal crutch, it could be another slippery slope.

[MrAnxious]

Help ! this insomnia is back with a vengenance. I can't sleep at all, like not sleeping at all. It was like when I first came off the drug, what in the hell. 3 days so far, im exhausted and the sleeping pill( heavy one) isn't even working. What the hell is wrong, my body is aching, anxiety is up there, feel like im going backwords and this is just wanting me to break and cave and go back to re taper off something else, im trying to hold on so strong here. I have 2 more days of placement and then the weekend off but then back for 2 weeks at another high stress place. Like If you read my previous posts i was doing better before this placement and everything, now i feel like im just stuck in reverse. Any other tricks for insomnia, i do notice i drink sugary drinks and pop during the day/night. Could this be having a big effect, same with smoking ? yes i started back up

 

 

[MrAnxious]

I just remembered i started phosphatdaserine , would it be possible that this is causing the extreme insomnia that just came outta the blue?? Its been 3 days insomnia and about 5 days ago i started taking it?! Makes sense but its supposebto be for insomnia so maybe im just super sensitive still ?! Gonna discontinue it i was taking 300mg a day

[basildev]

Mr. A, 

 

PS had that effect on me too. It made me wake up every hour.

 

When I stopped taking it my sleep settled down.

[MrAnxious]

Mr. A, 

 

PS had that effect on me too. It made me wake up every hour.

 

When I stopped taking it my sleep settled down.

Thanks Basil , yah i stopped taking it. I was excited cause it felt like it did lower my cortisol levels during the day, maybe later i can introduce it slowly, cause i want my sleep back

[alex]

I just remembered i started phosphatdaserine , would it be possible that this is causing the extreme insomnia that just came outta the blue?? Its been 3 days insomnia and about 5 days ago i started taking it?! Makes sense but its supposebto be for insomnia so maybe im just super sensitive still ?! Gonna discontinue it i was taking 300mg a day

At 3 months off insomnia is an issue.

I am almost 11 months off and have bad sleeping troubles.

PS may cause insomnia in high doses;300mgs is too much, I take 100mgs.

[MrAnxious]

 

I just remembered i started phosphatdaserine , would it be possible that this is causing the extreme insomnia that just came outta the blue?? Its been 3 days insomnia and about 5 days ago i started taking it?! Makes sense but its supposebto be for insomnia so maybe im just super sensitive still ?! Gonna discontinue it i was taking 300mg a day

At 3 months off insomnia is an issue.

I am almost 11 months off and have bad sleeping troubles.

PS may cause insomnia in high doses;300mgs is too much, I take 100mgs.

 

Sorry what's the 3 months off bit Alex, I've been off Effexor officially since Oct/2012 , So it's been 8 months so far, not sure if that's what you are talking about but yah are you still able to sleep ? Like it's this lack of sleep that puts us into a depression, it's a terrible cycle. I'm gonna stop taking the PS for now, ill try it again down the road. My system is way too amped up for anything it seems. 

[MrAnxious]

I am really lost for words at what to do...I am not sleeping at all, it's been 4 days now with no sleep and I am beginning to feel depressed ( Is that normal). Like I was sleeping okay for a bit here and there and I have even took a heavy sleeping pill and that hasn't done anything. This has got me really worried, feels like a downward slope starting from here. I do not get it or understand it. And I really need sleep as it's vital to my schooling  I just feel like a crash is enevitable but if i had sleep id be totally fine.

 

All this stuff just makes you think, do I really need that drug back so I can actually function in society like without sleep your mind starts to drift... I was doing alright too, is this just a wave ?  It's like my brain won't shut off and the minute it tries too BAM i am back up. I need some solid answers or things to do, pretty sure i've tried everything. At the point of exhaustion and I have to run around still for the next few weeks to finish up my placement. 

 

H.e.l.p need some support cause this is getting ugly and anxiety is getting ramped up again

[Karma]

Hi Mr. A., I'm sorry, I probably recommended PS ... I think Basil suggested that you drop it completely and I think that is probably a good idea.  Sometimes what works for one person has the opposite effect on others when we are dealing with withdrawals.

 

I think it is normal to start to feel depressed when you aren't sleeping.  You start to feel like you don't have control over basic things.

 

I would definitely lay off of the sugary drinks and pop ... Have you tried deep breathing or anything like meditation? You are going to have to take this one day at a time.  Don't try to focus on sleeping, but try to focus on relaxing ... if you remain conscious so what, just keep doing the deep breathing.  It may be possible that you will drift off for bits during that relaxation and that may be enough to help you get through this stressful time. 

 

I'm sorry I don't have any other ideas - I don't think you can take anything to help with this because it appears that your body is having the opposite reaction to what you have been taking.  Try not to freak youself out by saying you have to make it through 2 more weeks.  Just try and get calm and be kind to yourself.

 

Karma

[MrAnxious]

Hi Mr. A., I'm sorry, I probably recommended PS ... I think Basil suggested that you drop it completely and I think that is probably a good idea.  Sometimes what works for one person has the opposite effect on others when we are dealing with withdrawals.

 

I think it is normal to start to feel depressed when you aren't sleeping.  You start to feel like you don't have control over basic things.

 

I would definitely lay off of the sugary drinks and pop ... Have you tried deep breathing or anything like meditation? You are going to have to take this one day at a time.  Don't try to focus on sleeping, but try to focus on relaxing ... if you remain conscious so what, just keep doing the deep breathing.  It may be possible that you will drift off for bits during that relaxation and that may be enough to help you get through this stressful time. 

 

I'm sorry I don't have any other ideas - I don't think you can take anything to help with this because it appears that your body is having the opposite reaction to what you have been taking.  Try not to freak youself out by saying you have to make it through 2 more weeks.  Just try and get calm and be kind to yourself.

 

Karma

Thanks for the response Karma : You are so right about the basics feeling so hard, All my feelings and emotions come rushing back, had to take a ativan(hate that) i've been taking 0.5mg a day just to get through these rough days, just wish i could relax and have nothing on my mind but healing but ive immersed myself into this program that I need to finish. It's just im filled with so much anxiety that the little things seem so huge. Family doesn't understand why i am not sleeping and they are trying to figure it out when i keep telling them it's withdrawal. Are their any good videos on anti dep withdrawal so i can show them what it's all about so they can understand more, haven't really found much out there. I have cut out the PS and just drank water today, gonna take a sleeping pill tonight as I have my last day at the one place tommorow.

[MrAnxious]

Hang in there, stay strong, pray and breath- I need some good links to explain in a video withdrawal ? Anybody

[alex]

Ok, my mistake for the 3 months...

Why don´t you try swichting to a more natural sleep aid like Valerian?

PS definitely lowers cortisol, but it might take a while; and I repeat 300mgs is way too much.

 

I am getting VERY disrupted sleep also but I manage to get some rest.

During the day I`ve seen important improvement in anxiety levels.

I am amost 1 year Effexor free.

[alex]

Karma, I would like to know your experience with PS; do you take it? how much?

[strawberry17]

Mr Anxious if you want to show your family something how about The Numb Documentary?

 

http://www.numbdocumentary.com/Numb_Documentary/DVD.html

[MrAnxious]

Ok, my mistake for the 3 months...

Why don´t you try swichting to a more natural sleep aid like Valerian?

PS definitely lowers cortisol, but it might take a while; and I repeat 300mgs is way too much.

 

I am getting VERY disrupted sleep also but I manage to get some rest.

During the day I`ve seen important improvement in anxiety levels.

I am amost 1 year Effexor free.

I am gonna try 100mg just once a day once this placement ends so i know it's not gonna interfere with my sleep, orginally i tried Valerian and had high anxiety but that was probably just w/d, maybe ill try that after placement. It's so hard to really take anything in this because nothing really works, my system seems so fried. It tends to have the opposite effect. And wow alex, how would you say you are since you came off the Effexor and do you take any other meds or just this one?

[MrAnxious]

Mr Anxious if you want to show your family something how about The Numb Documentary?

 

http://www.numbdocumentary.com/Numb_Documentary/DVD.html

Thank you so much Strawberry  Your amazing

[MrAnxious]

Okay I need some support here. I feel so alone in this battle and this is really the only place that understands. I am at 8 months so far and it still feels like im at the start, though my mind has gotten better and so has my memory, the extreme anxiety is still there, never had this before the med EVER! and i just want that to go down, feels like it never will. 

 

I need a good talking to my friends, trying so hard to get through this. My placement is almost over , just praying it will end soon.

[alex]

Ok, first, anxiety is one of the "classic" symptoms in ssri`s w/d, so is insomnia.

Second, Buspar produces insomnia as a side effect;did you know that? Are you on Buspar?

Third, one of the main problems in w/d seems to be related with downregulation of the adrenals.

It seems one of the problems that tends to persist.

Over production of cortisol may take take a while to correct, and PS "seems" to help;it is a process though.

And last, at 8 months off you are probably at the worst state of w/d.

I was on one drug only,(Effexor) no reinstament, my first 9 months have been pure hell, with a blury few windows.

Today, I can say I`m noticing a significant improvement in anxiety and fear;I`ve had almost no physical symptoms, I can feel my recovery speeding up after almost 1 year off with the exception of insomnia.I still have rough times with disrupted sleep...I hope it levels up as the rest of the symptoms.

My advice:try 100mgs "SERIPHOS" (PS) 4hrs before you go to sleep, and see how it works

Patience and courage is needed also.

 

You are not alone.

[Adagiooo]

Mr. Anxious I just want to let you know you are not alone. I understand exactly how you feel about this being the only place where people understand the pain we experience. I truly hope your anxiety eases up soon and you experience a wonderful window of peace. Take care.

 

Adagiooo

[MrAnxious]

Ok, first, anxiety is one of the "classic" symptoms in ssri`s w/d, so is insomnia.

Second, Buspar produces insomnia as a side effect;did you know that? Are you on Buspar?

Third, one of the main problems in w/d seems to be related with downregulation of the adrenals.

It seems one of the problems that tends to persist.

Over production of cortisol may take take a while to correct, and PS "seems" to help;it is a process though.

And last, at 8 months off you are probably at the worst state of w/d.

I was on one drug only,(Effexor) no reinstament, my first 9 months have been pure hell, with a blury few windows.

Today, I can say I`m noticing a significant improvement in anxiety and fear;I`ve had almost no physical symptoms, I can feel my recovery speeding up after almost 1 year off with the exception of insomnia.I still have rough times with disrupted sleep...I hope it levels up as the rest of the symptoms.

My advice:try 100mgs "SERIPHOS" (PS) 4hrs before you go to sleep, and see how it works

Patience and courage is needed also.

 

You are not alone.

Honestly Alex, Thank you so much. I needed that. What can I do about the Buspar though, because I know I have to slowly taper and that I will experience more anxiety and racing thoughts, it's kinda blocked a part of the withdrawal, should I slowly nip away at the evening pill, i have this cutter thing. It won't be totally accurate but it should do the job ?maybe just a snip everynight and hold there for awhile ? Like I am scared to go off the Buspar and have a even worse withdrawal but i guess that's the biggest part left to go. The insomnia could definitely be coming from that. I am gonna try the 100mg of Ps, i appreciate all your help so much, and good to know that I am in the worst state of w/d right now , i guess the reason why i am exhausted is because my adrenals, do you know what the best way to get my adrenals working optimally ? I'd love to know. 

 

 

Thank you ! sometimes that's all I need 

[MrAnxious]

Mr. Anxious I just want to let you know you are not alone. I understand exactly how you feel about this being the only place where people understand the pain we experience. I truly hope your anxiety eases up soon and you experience a wonderful window of peace. Take care.Adagiooo

Thank you so much, How are you doing Adagiooo??that is quite the med history, how are you coming along ?