Erimus: my introduction and journal

[Erimus]

I’ve done the best I can Chessie after reading through my medical documents. The taper consisted of 20mg to 10mg, then 10mg every other day, then 10mg every third day then off. No idea how long I did each step for, probably a few weeks. I’ve tried to reflect this in my signature but it’s difficult without proper dates etc.

[Erimus]

I’ve been digging around on the site and couldn’t find anything about tapering off supplements. I’ve taken B-complex since the end of September 2020 and want to stop it, just to ensure I am not experiencing any stimulation effects from it. My plan was to take it every other day for 2 weeks, then every third day for 2 weeks, and then stop. 
 

Also, any chance you could change my topic title to ‘Erimus: tapering sertraline and mirtazapine’, Chessie?

 

Thanks

[RachelSusan]

On 6/24/2022 at 10:22 AM, Erimus said:

I'm pretty tired of explaining myself to people about what’s happened. Usually greeted by a blank stare and confused look, as if I’m some sort of nutter that reads too much on the internet. If only these people could spend a day in my body with these feelings everyday. 

Oh my gosh, this is exactly how I felt when I was going through it.   And yes that blank stare. I received it many times. It was so frustrating.

 

Hello, my name is Rachel. Sorry you are suffering so. I hope you find relief soon.

[Ariel]

On 6/26/2022 at 1:26 PM, Erimus said:

I’ve been digging around on the site and couldn’t find anything about tapering off supplements. I’ve taken B-complex since the end of September 2020 and want to stop it, just to ensure I am not experiencing any stimulation effects from it. My plan was to take it every other day for 2 weeks, then every third day for 2 weeks, and then stop. 
 

 

Hi @Erimus

I've had a look around as well and haven't found any supplement-specific tapering protocol. 

However, I have noticed members sharing about shaving, cutting, crushing supplement tablets, as well as opening capsules to reduce content. 

 

Shep just posted this is another member's thread:

1 hour ago, Shep said:

 

While we don't know as much about supplements as we do psychiatric drugs, if you've been taken a supplement for a long time, it may be best to taper it, although you may be able to taper faster than the 10% harm-reduction rule for psychiatric drugs. Tapering allows the body to adjust to the decrease. It's possible that a supplement may be masking a symptom and once the supplement is removed, the symptom returns. By slowly reducing, if you feel an uptick in symptoms, you can increase the supplement dose without as much risk of kindling the nervous system (nervous system kindling is trauma to the nervous system caused by abrupt changes).

 

 

I used to take a B complex and it took me a long time to put 2+2 together to realize what effect the supplement was having (that it was having an undesirable effect). I knew the theoretical information about Bs possibly being stimulating but somehow I didn't connect that to what I was actually feeling in my body. Because I was also having so many other WD symptoms it wasn't clear to me that X effect was distinguishable as a reaction to B-vitamins, there was so much discomfort all lumped together. At one point I went a few days without supplements (don't remember whether it was random or maybe I'd run out), and I noticed there was less of a general unsettled feeling between my first and second meal of the day (I used to take Bs with first meal). This led me to realize that the Bs had been causing and exacerbating overall agitation, stirring things up; and I stopped taking them. Made a big difference. There was no single symptom that vanished, it was more the sum-total level of complete upset-ness and not-okay-ness went down a bit. 

 

Btw I did not taper, I just stopped. Don't remember whether I noticed anything funky, mostly just felt relief. (Not saying one shouldn't taper, just sharing how it was for me; and in my case it was all rather haphazard, not a well-thought-out, considered plan.)

[Erimus]

Thank you for the detailed response @Ariel. I’m also interested as to wether some of the symptoms I experience are created or exacerbated by the B-complex. I think I’m just scared of change after what I’ve been through, it’s the fear of the unknown.

Obviously it’s unlikely that it is causing a lot of problems that the psychiatric drugs and dose changes have led to, but I am very intrigued to see if any of the problems I experience diminish and improve after cessation of the B complex. 
 

The complex I’m taking has way over the RDA in pretty much every b vitamin. Prolonged use with such extreme amounts of B6 and B12 daily has probably caused quite a bit of a stir, I can imagine. I’ll go ahead with the loosely organised 4 week taper plan and report back with my findings. Hopefully I gain some improvements!

[Erimus]

This journey often tests you to your absolute physical and mental limits. Sometimes you reach breaking point, and that’s perfectly acceptable given the suffering you endure. Sadly, today is one of those days for me. All you can do is eat, take your medication and supplements as usual, and hold out the best you can.

It’s like when you’re a youngster and a storm means you can’t go out and play. No matter how angry and frustrated you get, only Mother Nature decides when the time is right. Like every storm, this one shall pass for me. 

[Ariel]

@Erimus

The wisdom reflected in your words clearly serves you well. 

You're doing an excellent job caring for yourself on this journey. 

Yes, this is temporary. Yes, this will pass. It gets better!

Healing is happening all the time, even when we don't consciously feel it.

Wishing you peace and relief sooner rather than later.  

Sending you a hug <3 

 

[peaceandlove]

Hey just got done reading your post & it’s so encouraging to see how your symptoms have improved. I’m so happy for you. I’m in my 20’s as well & it’s such a hard feeling knowing I’m missing out on building my career & time being young with friends but here I am. I also have the reflex & it’s one of the hardest symptoms for sure since it causes breathing problems & so much discomfort. Also hard to gain weight & want to eat when feeling this way. I will be following your journey 🙂

[Erimus]

Hello @peaceandlove. Thanks for the encouragement. It’s hard dealing with the thoughts about not progressing with your life in the same way other 20 something’s do. Eventually you come to terms with it and accept that this is a journey you must endure, it will serve us well in the long run that is life, teaching us many valuable lessons.

 

On the reflux. Eating small meals and avoiding common trigger foods helped me massively in the early days. Things like propping your bed up 6 inches when you sleep can help as well. I drank gaviscon pretty much every night for months on end, I don’t anymore thankfully. I lost a lot of weight last year because all I ate was porridge and soup. I’m here to tell you things get better with time.

 

Keep plugging away and you’ll get there.

[peaceandlove]

13 hours ago, Erimus said:

Hello @peaceandlove. Thanks for the encouragement. It’s hard dealing with the thoughts about not progressing with your life in the same way other 20 something’s do. Eventually you come to terms with it and accept that this is a journey you must endure, it will serve us well in the long run that is life, teaching us many valuable lessons.

 

On the reflux. Eating small meals and avoiding common trigger foods helped me massively in the early days. Things like propping your bed up 6 inches when you sleep can help as well. I drank gaviscon pretty much every night for months on end, I don’t anymore thankfully. I lost a lot of weight last year because all I ate was porridge and soup. I’m here to tell you things get better with time.

 

Keep plugging away and you’ll get there.

yeah really nothing we can do about it but accept it & do our best to heal & keep positive. Yup i do just that smaller meals at a time & a wedge pillow. Thank you!!

[Erimus]

Thanks @RachelSusan. I’m delighted to see that you have successfully tapered of sertraline, and I wish you health in life “post-zero”!

[Erimus]

4th July 2022:

 

A real physical challenge today. Last few days I’ve had immense jaw pain. This afternoon I’ve developed an incredibly painful back which I think I may have strained earlier in the week lifting a piece of furniture multiple times. I’ve had to take paracetamol because it’s so painful, just came on out of nowhere in the last hour or so. Also feeling very hot with flushes. 
 

I’ve got myself laid in bed with the tennis on but no position seems to be comfortable. I’ve got a big update planned for Sunday to mark two years in this mess. I’ll be 22 on Friday. Didn’t expect to be laid up in bed with a bad back at this age.. haha. What a life.

[Ariel]

Hi @Erimus

Nice to encounter a fellow Cancerian. July babies unite <3

I'm sorry about your back and jaw pain. Do you live alone? Do you have anyone nearby who can help you with practical matters? 

How is the B-vitamin taper going? 

Hang in there, Erimus. Hope you get some pain relief soon <3

[Erimus]

Thanks Ariel. Summer birthdays are definitely a winner when you’re feeling well. Thankfully I don’t live alone and have a good support system.
 

It’s so frustrating to be knocked with one thing after the next. My daily walks on a night were my escape and now that’s been robbed from me. I think I strained myself yanking a chair out from under my desk earlier, now I’m in a world of rib and back pain. I’m trying to practice being stoic but I find I’m not very good at enduring physical pain without complaining.  Pain is a real leveller, it can bring even the most arrogant of people to their knees.

 

Hope you’re doing okay and thanks for checking in. 

[Ariel]

Oh Erimus, I hear you. 

Sometimes it gets so hard we just have to laugh! And when we do, our bodies hurt in weird places... and then all we can do is laugh some more!

I've run out of heart tokens to click on your posts but send you <3 and a big virtual hug that won't hurt your ribs or your back!

 

[Erimus]

This back injury has really upset me, physically and mentally. I had a similar back injury in July 2014, which almost exactly mirrors the pain I am experiencing now, just slightly lower this time. That one was from playing football, this one moving a chair.. haha. That injury took around 7-8 weeks to heal over summer holidays, I slid into what I now know to be a pretty deep depression due to it. The pain was horrific.
 

The GP just told me to take full dose ibuprofen back then. It never did anything. It took one physio session 8 weeks later and the exercises cured me. Just affirms my huge distrust in the medical system. I’m pretty sure the prolonged use of ibuprofen is what contributed to my stomach problems which began later that year.

 

Anyway, this time I’m armed with my wisdom to aid me through this. I’ve been icing it 3-4 times a day and I’ll start walking and stretching in a couple of days. Worst thing you can do after the acute injury is lay down, I learnt this the hard way 8 years ago. It’s difficult to manage withdrawal syndrome and this, but I’ll survive, like I always do.

[Ariel]

@Erimus

 

I'm so sorry about this upset. I wish I could relieve your pain. 

 

2 hours ago, Erimus said:

The GP just told me to take full dose ibuprofen back then. It never did anything. It took one physio session 8 weeks later and the exercises cured me. Just affirms my huge distrust in the medical system. I’m pretty sure the prolonged use of ibuprofen is what contributed to my stomach problems which began later that year.

 

Do you know, when I read this I got goosebumps. At the risk of sounding woo-woo, sometimes life offers us a sort of repeat of a situation and we get a glimpse of how much we've grown. We are gifted the insight of making different choices in a similar situation. I'm not diminishing your suffering in any way, and your experience is not for me to interpret. Just sharing how this resonated with me. What a striking observation that prolonged, physician-directed ibuprofen use (in response to back injury) may have caused the epigastric pain that led to being prescribed psych drugs (if I'm reading you correctly). And here you are today nursing your hurt back with so much hard-won wisdom and experience, improving on the past. 

 

Erimus, you're a brave one. Give yourself lots of credit. 

 

Sending healing vibes <3

[Erimus]

It may just be a coincidence @Ariel. I think I had a bit of a disposition to being quite nervous and anxious before any of this. I didn’t understand why at the time but when I was 15 I developed functional dyspepsia (indigestion with no visible explanation) due to anxiety I experienced during lessons at school. It makes sense now but I was clueless at the time and just took the antacid’s and PPI’s the doctor gave me, as you do when you’re 15.. haha. 
 

Hence why my adverse reaction to sertraline and the attempt to withdraw from it have caused me so many horrific GI issues. The withdrawal has basically created massive chemically induced (fake) anxiety in my body, which is my stomachs worst nightmare. I’m angry because sertraline has a reputation for GI distress and no doctor ever thought to check my history and not let me take it. Given my successful history with amitriptyline I wish I had simply been prescribed that in Oct 2020, not sertraline and then mirtazapine.

 

I don’t think I would’ve survived without pharmaceutical intervention given the state I was in, but I wish I was in a mental state capable doing more due diligence and researching these drugs. I was so unwell and desperate for help I took whatever they gave me. Unfortunately it didn’t work out. I’m grateful I have access to this wonderful resource that has rescued me from all these horrific symptoms and feelings nobody could explain.

 

Im thankful that people like you provide an ear for those of us suffering to talk to, despite your own massive battle. I find it is often those of us who are most sensitive and kind who become victims to these drugs and prolonged illnesses.

[Ariel]

@Erimus

You have really been through a lot at a young age. My heart goes out to you. 

 

5 minutes ago, Erimus said:

I wish I was in a mental state capable doing more due diligence and researching these drugs. I was so unwell and desperate for help I took whatever they gave me. Unfortunately it didn’t work out.

 

It is in no way your fault! I really hope you don't blame yourself for any of this. You were young, vulnerable, and placed your trust in the doctors responsible for your care, which is an entirely reasonable expectation. This should be enough. We shouldn't have to spend hours, days, weeks teaching ourselves and researching and becoming amateur practitioners and expert communicators and arming ourselves with scientific papers merely in preparation for one lousy doctor's appointment (as I know you do). Please don't criticize yourself for what happened. You are not responsible for doctors' ignorance, incompetence, and malpractice, nor are you responsible for the fundamental systemic problems at the heart of this issue. 

 

You are taking responsibility in your own life, for your own health and well-being to a remarkable degree, which is serving you well in recovery and personal development. You are very special and a shining example of how to get through this bullsh*t with grit and grace. Give yourself so much credit, Erimus! 

 

11 minutes ago, Erimus said:

I’m grateful I have access to this wonderful resource that has rescued me from all these horrific symptoms and feelings nobody could explain.

 

Im thankful that people like you provide an ear for those of us suffering to talk to, despite your own massive battle. I find it is often those of us who are most sensitive and kind who become victims to these drugs and prolonged illnesses.

 

I'm thankful for SA, too, and I'm thankful for you <3

 

[Erimus]

Why is it that some of us really struggle with withdrawal from certain drugs? It feels like my body really doesn’t know how to undo the changes made by the drug. Withdrawal waxes and wanes then eventually my nervous system sort of ‘crashes’ and it can cope with a bit less of the drug. 
 

Since my big crash in December last year my withdrawal goes through cycles. They used to last 7-10 days with noticeable peaks, followed by a crash and then repeat. This last cycle I’ve been stuck in for around 3 months and I still don’t feel like I’ve come out of it. 
 

I always say, if someone told me what dose my nervous system wants to be stable I would updose in a heartbeat. This method of withdrawal has been horrific. It’s like my body doesn’t know how to undo sertraline in amounts over a certain size. Hopefully when I do begin tapering 1mg at a time is manageable.

[Combitone]

Hi Erimus,

 

Really sorry you're going through this. It sounds like some aspects are of a similar situation to mine - mainly the process of stabilisation, which I can't profess to really understand either. I reinstated after a bad taper, which was a mistake, as the symptoms persist after 14 months or so, and my chief question has always been how on Earth you know when you've stabilised on a dose. Should there be a noticeable improvement in symptoms, or is it just that the symptoms you have are consistent, whether good or bad? It's incredibly tough to know where you are on the timeline, because few people seem to be able to read the signs.

[Erimus]

Hello @Combitone. It’s a tough one. Only we can decide what counts as ‘stable’ and when we decide to begin tapering. I have a feeling in my mind of what I’m aiming towards with certain symptoms but, as you said, it’s pretty difficult to discern what is withdrawal and what is simply your ‘normal’ on the drugs. 
 

I think I’m aiming towards the same feelings every day. At the moment there is still quite a fluctuation most days. Due to my adverse response to sertraline, staying on the same dose too long begins to cause extreme depression and lethargy. This happened in Feb-Mar 2021. So what I’m aiming for now is that same feeling.

 

After bad withdrawal experiences I don’t think any of us are ever going to feel ‘good’ on the drugs, but we must find the best stability we can in order to have the greatest chance of a successful taper. It’s incredibly difficult.

[Ariel]

@Erimus @Combitone

 

I hear you.

I think most of us, if not all, struggle with similar questions. I know I do. 

 

It often helps me to re-re-re-re-(you get the idea)-read this excellent essay by brassmonkey. 

The whole thing is brilliant, incl. chapter 5 on stability and chapter 11 on WDnormal.

 

 

Also including another comment by brassmonkey:

 

 

[Combitone]

5 hours ago, Erimus said:

Hello @Combitone. It’s a tough one. Only we can decide what counts as ‘stable’ and when we decide to begin tapering. I have a feeling in my mind of what I’m aiming towards with certain symptoms but, as you said, it’s pretty difficult to discern what is withdrawal and what is simply your ‘normal’ on the drugs. 
 

I think I’m aiming towards the same feelings every day. At the moment there is still quite a fluctuation most days. Due to my adverse response to sertraline, staying on the same dose too long begins to cause extreme depression and lethargy. This happened in Feb-Mar 2021. So what I’m aiming for now is that same feeling.

 

After bad withdrawal experiences I don’t think any of us are ever going to feel ‘good’ on the drugs, but we must find the best stability we can in order to have the greatest chance of a successful taper. It’s incredibly difficult.

 

Yes, I'm starting to think this really might be it as far as stabilisation goes. I've made some extraordinarily bad decisions - some with professional advice, some not - over the last couple of years, so plucking up the courage to take another leap of faith is going to take some doing. It sounds like you're taking a sensible line with things, though

[Combitone]

5 hours ago, Ariel said:

@Erimus @Combitone

 

I hear you.

I think most of us, if not all, struggle with similar questions. I know I do. 

 

It often helps me to re-re-re-re-(you get the idea)-read this excellent essay by brassmonkey. 

The whole thing is brilliant, incl. chapter 5 on stability and chapter 11 on WDnormal.

 

 

Also including another comment by brassmonkey:

 

 

 

Thanks for this - I wish I'd gotten to whatever page of search results this was listed on, or maybe it's just the curse of searching with a 's' in 'stabilise' instead of a 'z' 😄

[Ariel]

@Erimus

Happy birthday <3

You are such a lovely person and I'm glad you're part of this community. 

Wishing you a peaceful, pleasant day (as much as possible under the circumstances) 

and a  H E A L I N G  year to come.

Thinking of you <3 

[Erimus]

Thank you @Ariel! I will enjoy to the best of my abilities. I wish I could say I’m feeling 22 this morning and full of beans, but I feel more like 60.. haha. 

[Ariel]

Well I'm sure ya look amazing for 60!!

(and I trust that when you're 60 you'll feel 22)

<3

[Erimus]

10th July 2022: Note, this is a long one. Strap yourself in if you want to read it all!

 

Today marks an important milestone for me in this journey to regain my health. Two years ago today I woke up hungover after celebrating my 20th birthday at the pub, a first visit back after the initial covid lockdowns. That was the last time I drank alcohol, simply because of how unwell I’ve been. I was reflecting a few weeks back, and I genuinely think this was the last time I felt true happiness. In the week building up to this, I had started to experience some unpleasant symptoms at work, hot sweats in particular. This was caused by what I now know to be chronic stress which had culminated in the 3-4 months beforehand, my anxiety started to spiral from this point onwards, although I didn’t understand how constant worrying detrimented my health at the time.

 

As the weeks went by I got worse and worse, accumulating more weird symptoms such as a constant light-headed feeling. I was constantly back and forth to the doctors but all the tests were fine. I’d convinced myself I had caught covid and was experiencing post-viral fatigue (long covid), despite all my covid tests returning negative. Dr Google made me even more worried and by the end of August 2020 the insomnia started. Little did I know I wouldn’t sleep a full night  again until the end of December 2020. It absolutely ripped me apart until I was a ghost of myself. 

 

I discovered a website called the anxiety centre in late November 2020 which explained all the symptoms I had and how to fix it; it was a life saver, I was finally cured! Unfortunately, I had already entered the deep world of the psychotropic drug industry a month earlier; unbeknownst to me, this would ravage my body physically and mentally even more than my initial breakdown.

 

I was given sertraline and from the first pill it gave me horrific restless leg syndrome and a constant agitation and wired feeling. The doctors kept telling me to keep pushing through, “it’ll get worse before it gets better” they said. Mid January 2021 the initial start-up symptoms finally subsided, after 3 months of agitation, and I was ‘cured’ again! I tried to return to life somewhat but didn’t understand why I still felt so tired and ‘strange’. I had weird symptoms such as a strange pressure in my head, which I now understand to be from toxic amounts of serotonin in my system. My body doesn’t break it down fast enough, allowing it to build up in excess.

 

I hadn’t returned to who I was before this illness. Over the next few months I slid deeper and deeper into extreme lethargy and depression. This was the adverse affects of the drug, little did I know. I had a plethora of digestive issues that I had never experienced before, including horrible acid reflux, as well as strange food sensitivities.

 

April 2021 I dropped my sertraline dose to 50mg in an attempt to reverse these digestive problems, and so began my 12 months of hell chopping and changing my dose per the doctors ‘recommended amounts’; each cut further ravaging my body and mind. The last cut from 75mg to 50mg in September 2021 was the final nail in the coffin. Since a big nervous system crash in December 2021 I have been in severe withdrawal, slowly lurching forward as my body attempts to find a balance. I could have avoided much of this pain by taking a dose around 80-100mg. My stubbornness and lack of knowledge punished me, the excruciating and crushing symptoms I have endured over the last 6 months have been nothing short of torturous. But I have survived, and I will learn from this and what it has to teach me.

 

A further deep dive into nutrition and gut health led me to understand how many people experiencing mental health problems are simply suffering due to food sensitivities causing inflammation in their gut, and that others are dealing with complex trauma. The root cause of all mental health problems is inflammation. Wether it be in the gut, from excess stress, sleep deprivation, past trauma, toxic chemicals etc.

 

I initially happened upon SurvivingAntidepressants in early January 2021, but discarded the information as I was still blinkered by the drugs and the hidden lies about them. As my health deteriorated more over the course of last year I found myself back on the forum, relating more and more to other members’ suffering. I thank my lucky stars that this forum exists, and the wonderful founder (Alto) and the other staff members that share their wisdom and knowledge to help people like me navigate this well-trodden path.

 

My problem now is I find I have become very cold, angry, lacking empathy, and find myself frustrated when others aren’t advocates for their own health. I don’t know if this is the drugs changing my personality, the trauma of the last 2 years, or a combination of both. I must learn to deal with this whilst I try to slowly wean myself off these drugs in the coming months and years.

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by ChessieCat
edited at request of member

[Ariel]

Powerful post, @Erimus

Congratulations on your milestone. 

I'm sorry for what you've been through and are still going through. 

Your righteous anger is understandable. I trust that when you are ready, if you choose to do so, you will be able to channel that emotional energy into a force for good and being the change you wish to see in the world. 

For now, the name of the game is recovery, and you are doing a great job taking care of yourself. 

Healing is happening <3

I hold space for your experience.

Thank you for sharing your story. 

 

[Erimus]

Thanks @Ariel. I hope when I’m more stable I’m able to channel some of my anger and frustration into helping others on the forum. I don’t really trust myself to support others yet, I don’t want to let them down. I just don’t want people to suffer as much as I have.

[Erimus]

21 months on sertraline and 15 months in active withdrawal (unknowingly at the start). I’ve been getting hammered by symptoms today. Been pushing through and doing what needs to be done. Hot flushes in this hot weather is unpleasant. Somehow still finding the motivation to survive and push on.

[Erimus]

I can’t be the only one who experiences the “fast-forward time” feelings. Wish I could just jump 3-6 months down the road. I seem to be stuck in a bad wave at the moment. 
 

Symptoms still driving me mad include: intense restlessness in arms and sometimes legs, tension headaches everyday, air hunger, buzzing/vibrating in legs, poor concentration and lack of executive function. Also have no emotions whatsoever. Don’t feel anything because I’m in a haze of restlessness and agitation each day. 

[peaceandlove]

Was your acid reflex in your throat as well or only your chest? Or both 

 

& yes I wanna fast forward too. Everyday feels exactly the same 

[Roserdl]

2 hours ago, Erimus said:

I can’t be the only one who experiences the “fast-forward time” feelings. Wish I could just jump 3-6 months down the road. I seem to be stuck in a bad wave at the moment. 
 

Symptoms still driving me mad include: intense restlessness in arms and sometimes legs, tension headaches everyday, air hunger, buzzing/vibrating in legs, poor concentration and lack of executive function. Also have no emotions whatsoever. Don’t feel anything because I’m in a haze of restlessness and agitation each day. 

Have you had any windows of relief where the symptoms went away?

[Erimus]

It was in my throat and my chest @peaceandlove. Was basically constant for months on end. I went through 1-2 bottles of gaviscon a week at its worst. It improved as my nervous system calmed down. Still get it occasionally but I can eat pretty well most of the time now.

I had a anxiety/stress related indigestion problem pre-SSRI’s which has been massively flared by withdrawal, that didn’t help matters.. haha.