Thorin: withdrawal from Latuda

[Thorin]

Hi All,

 

tapering clonazepam (originally Xanax but crossed over and started tapering). Down to 0.125mg clonazepam 3 x day and holding until I finish the taper of another med.

 

my question is:Clonazepam is meant to kick in after about an hour. Is it possible that it started effecting me within 5 minutes or is that more likely psychological?

 

thanks

[Thorin]

0.125mg clonazepam affecting me in 5 mins or something else

 

Hi All,

 

tapering clonazepam (originally Xanax but crossed over and started tapering). Down to 0.125mg clonazepam 3 x day and holding until I finish the taper of another med.

 

my question is:Clonazepam is meant to kick in after about an hour. Is it possible that it started effecting me within 5 minutes or is that more likely psychological? I’d taken CBD oil 40 mins before I took the low dose of clonazepam so it could have been that too.

 

thanks

 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by ChessieCat
added topic title before merging with intro topic/ resized font

[ChessieCat]

4 minutes ago, Thorin said:

I’d taken CBD oil 40 mins before I took the low dose of clonazepam so it could have been that too.

 

When there is more than one variable it is difficult to know the cause.

[Thorin]

Thanks ChessieCat

[Thorin]

Wednesday moderate
Woke up about 0030 and had poor sleep after that.
Woke up early immediately stressed and bad memory
0830 0.125mg clonazepam big fight with son Despite waking up stressed and angry and having a fight with my son (my emotions felt a bit out of control) I feel more ‘alert’ and clearheaded today. Less anxiety so far.
1020 mag without vit B
1025 just got a wave of anxiety
1100 having some strong emotions today. Difficult to seperate from them. Head not clear but clearer than usual.
1300 0.125 mg clonazepam. Stressed and short with people today. Easy to anger.
1400 quite agitated today. Usual symptoms I experience are less today….. not sure I understand what is going on.
1700 brain jumping around. Thoughts seem a bit out of control. Some light intrusive thoughts

1900 14mg lurasidone

1930 0.4 ml CBD:THC oil
2015 some pressure around my head. Feels like someone pressing on either side of my head

2230 0.125 mg clonazepam
 

[Thorin]

So my whole system seems more ‘activated’ this last week. More engaged with what’s going on around me, not as cloudy in my mind, more energy, out of bed reasonably early instead of staying in bed late, or even all day. While this is very welcome I also feel a bit agitated and it’s hard to bring myself down a notch or two and relax. It’s also bringing some strong anxiety at times and some low-moderate level intrusive thoughts just in the last few days. Is this just the next stage in healing and the energy will stay and the anxiety and intrusive thoughts will slowly dissipate? Or is this me now? This is just who I am and maybe I need to consider that I DO need some sort of medication....... I won't be rushing into anything. Just watching and waiting to see what happens with me. I hope I'm ok in the long run. I worry I won't be.

[FindRest]

3 hours ago, Thorin said:

1900 14mg lurasidone

1930 0.4 ml CBD:THC oil
2015 some pressure around my head. Feels like someone pressing on either side of my head

It’s my understanding that CBD is metabolized by the same liver enzyme as lurasidone.  This would mean that the CBD could be causing an increase in lurasidone, as it waits it’s turn to be metabolized (more complicated than this, however). I’ve always heard that one should not take any medications within 2 hours of dosing with CBD.

[Thorin]

@FindRest

 

thanks for commenting. I wasn’t aware of this. I’ll look into it and try taking the CBD 2 hours before/after any other medication.

[Thorin]

Thursday moderate
Seem to be waking up earlier and sleeping worse
0750 0.6ml CBD oil
0830 0.125mg clonazepam stressed this morning and struggling to feel/interpret emotions. Emotions are very uncomfortable and unsettling.
0835 emotions settled a bit. Either psychological (because I took clonazepam, unless clonazepam can take effect within 5 mins of swallowing?) or CBD calmed me.
0930 feeling significantly calmer. Seems silly but I’m worried it’s just the clonazepam calming me. Worried I won’t be able to function/ endure life without it. Could be the CBD calming me and I’m just being anxious. It’s all so confusing.
1000 mag no vit b
1015 no spike of anxiety after mag today. Must’ve been something else yesterday.
1020 slight body weakness today. Not sure if more than other days
1130 some spikes of anxiety and some low level intrusive thoughts.
1300 0.125 mg clonazepam. emotions and anxieties are getting stronger. This may be because I am ‘putting myself out there’ more….. I am engaging with things in my life instead of hiding in the bedroom. This is VERY difficult.
1330 decided a week or so ago to reduce therapy to once a month. Increasing it back to fortnightly.
1445 finished work early. But less stressed and anxious. 0.6ml CBD oil
1900 14 mg Lurasidone
1930 0.6 ml CBD:THC oil
2230 0.125mg clonazepam
 

[Altostrata]

What has been your tapering schedule for clonazepam?

[Thorin]

I’ve been holding the clonazepam for nearly 12 months but before that I was doing a linear taper. Dropping 0.125mg each time. It was definitely too big a drop last time.

[Thorin]

So I just took my dog to the water for the first time in a long time. I've been doing relatively well lately so i thought I'd get out and do something that I used to enjoy. When I got down there a strong sense of weakness, panic and dread came over me quite quickly. Was kinda scary to experience this. I thought I was passed this stuff but it was pretty intense. Seems like odd things stress me out now and anything that stresses me out effects me really badly. Do people just push through this stuff or is it better to avoid things that make you fell like this? Does this get better?

[Thorin]

(see next post for Friday)

 

Saturday

0830 0.125mg clonazepam. Tired.

1100 trying a strong coffee. Don’t feel like lying in bed all day which is what I usually do on the weekend these days.

1245 I feel like I could go do something and enjoy myself but I’m worried that feeling will disappear and the withdrawals will get bad again. Need to just accept when I’m feeling good and go with it.

1250 no issues with the strong coffee. Maybe my CNS really is starting to heal. Will keep holding at this dose until January and see if I really stabilise.

1345 so even though I felt like I could do stuff I’m still lying in bed looking at my phone. This has been my life for nearly 12 months.

1630 little bit of anxiety. Just had a bunch of sugar

1730 Bit of fear and dread may have forgotten clonazepam. 0.125mg clonazepam

1900 14 mg clonazepam bit of dread continuing

2230 0.125mg clonazepam

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by ChessieCat

[Thorin]

(see previous post for Saturday)

 

Posted Saturday but forgot Friday so here it is.

 

Friday awake since 3am (good except very tired)
0740 0.6ml CBD oil
0815 oil seems to reduce the stress a bit
0830 0.125 mg clonazepam
1100 weak coffee
1215 very mild dizziness and head sensations 1/10
1300 0.125 mg clonazepam
1430 slight sensation in chest. This is associated with not being able to feel joy etc properly. Very tired.
1800 brief nap
1900 14mg clonazepam
2230 0.125mg clonazepam. Went out for dinner with a friend at the restaurant where my kids work even though I didn’t feel like it. Was enjoyable and I had a good time then went home at a reasonable hour
 

Edited November 13, 2022 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

I think you need to work with/around it.  When I needed to go shopping and started having a panic attack just thinking about it I had to calm myself down.  And then I planned what I was going to do.  I told myself that I had made the trip before but if I felt uncomfortable on the way there I could always stop.  I did get to the shops with no issues and managed to get done what I needed to do, without issues.  But it made me feel more at ease knowing that a had a plan of what to do if I couldn't manage it.

 

Pushing yourself too hard is only going to be stressful on your symptom and is not good.  However, challenging yourself a little bit and succeeding helps you to see that you can do things and next time you can say well I managed this last time I can do it again this time.

 

I also sometimes say to myself that there is no pressure, and this is just an adventure and I will do what I can managed.  Little achievements like this add up and it makes you feel that you have accomplished something.

 

5 minutes ago, Thorin said:

When I got down there a strong sense of weakness, panic and dread came over me quite quickly. Was kinda scary to experience this.

 

When this happens, take some time out.  The trick is to learn to recognise the signs of it starting and then take action:

 

Just this week I was lying down on the CT angiogram scanner bed about to begin the test (going into a close tunnel) and I started having a panic attack and knew that if I didn't do something about it, then it would have been a full blown attack whilst in the machine.  I said to the radiologist that I needed some more time to calm myself down.  He did that and after a few minutes (it wasn't very long) I had managed to get it under control and did the test with no issues.  And it was the non drug coping skills that I have learned here that allowed me to do this.  But the big thing was that I recognised it early.  

[Thorin]

15 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Pushing yourself too hard is only going to be stressful on your symptom and is not good.  However, challenging yourself a little bit and succeeding helps you to see that you can do things and next time you can say well I managed this last time I can do it again this time.

Thanks ChessieCat. That’s what I’m trying to do. Challenge myself and get back out there a bit. These are things that were a matter of routine for me in the past. Now they can stop me dead in my tracks. But after I’ve freaked myself out, I pick myself up, post on here and then try and push on. Maybe I am pushing myself too hard…. I don’t know. It didn’t seem like it would be a big thing.

 

17 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

And it was the non drug coping skills that I have learned here that allowed me to do this.  But the big thing was that I recog

That’s fantastic to hear that non-drug skills are helping post medication. I’m really doing my best to learn new skills and get myself healthy. Man it’s difficult though isn’t it. Why would going down to the water have that sort of effect on my system. Sometimes I think not understanding what’s happening is the hardest part.

 

 I’m got home afterwards, settled myself, posted on here, did a couple of jobs then went for a short, gentle jog to try and get a sense of normalcy back. Will have to try the water again in the next few weeks to see whether it has the same effect. Just don’t want to spend the rest of my life lying in my darkened bedroom just because that space seems to be where I experience the least symptoms….

[ChessieCat]

17 minutes ago, Thorin said:

Why would going down to the water have that sort of effect on my system.

 

It may be because we get overstimulated.

 

18 minutes ago, Thorin said:

Man it’s difficult though isn’t it.

 

When I notice it happening I usually say to myself something like chill or you're okay,

 

20 minutes ago, Thorin said:

Sometimes I think not understanding what’s happening is the hardest part.

 

I think we need to realise that we have been numbed by the drugs for a long time.  As we reduce the drug then we are no longer numbed.  Sort of like the volume being turned up when it has been softer for a long time.

 

[Thorin]

2 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

may be because we get overstimulated.

I think this may be the key. When I’m in my darkened room there’s very little stimulation and I tend to experience few symptoms here. I start to get them when I sit down for work or after I’ve been working for a bit and my stress levels increase.

I find it very stimulating as I start doing activities again that I used to do. I can feel symptoms then to. But if I’m lying on my bed then very few issues…. 

[Thorin]

So I’m holding at 14mg Lurasidone and 0.375 mg clonazepam. Until next year at the earliest. My question is, do I wait until my current withdrawal symptoms have stopped entirely before attempting a taper (will drop by about 3.75% this first time to test the waters) or do I have to accept that I just experience these withdrawals now and that’s life and do the next drop in spite of still experiencing withdrawals?

[ChessieCat]

Stability

 

WDnormal

 

And Brassmonkey talks more about it here:

 

tao-of-the-brassmonkey

[Thorin]

Thanks ChessieCat. That answered my question perfectly. Can say that my WDnormal has been improving over the last couple of months.

[Thorin]

Sunday med and symptom log - seem to be entering into another wave. Not as bad as previous months

 

Sunday ok

Woke up a little later today

0830 0.125 mg clonazepam

0930 feeling a little calmer today. Breathing exercises made me feel a bit of pleasure.

1030 going to the markets with friends. Long time since I’ve seen them. Trying a strong coffee now. Mag no vitamin B.

1130 at the markets and actually feel 95% good. Slight dread/anxiety threatening but only just present.

1230 slight dread and anxiety when in stimulating situations. 2/10

1300 0.125mg clonazepam

1615 went to take the dog for a swim for the first time in a long time. My body reacted strangely. Got a sense of panic and dread and real weakness through my whole body. Not sure what was going on there. Was a bit scary. Clearly very much still in the midst of withdrawals. Maybe I won’t be starting to taper again in January. Will continue trying new things and seeing how my body reacts. Don’t want to push myself too hard though (8/10 but didn't last for that long)

1730 cold shower to reset nervous system then 0.3ml CBD:THC oil.

2000 14mg Lurasidone. usual spikes of dread. Forgot to take Lurasidone at 1900.

2030 experiencing some dread as I organise dinner.

2200 have been experiencing some intrusive thoughts again today.

2230 0.125mg clonazepam

[Thorin]

woke up early. No cortisol spike

0730 strong coffee.

0830 0.125mg clonazepam

1030 trialing another coffee. My trauma seems to be coming up a lot today. Suspect it’s being triggered by life events. Involves some intrusive thoughts

1230 feeling some depression today.

1300 0.125mg clonazepam

1315 still very depressed. Hope this lifts soon. Usually only lasts about a day.

1445 feel like depression is starting to lift a little. Coincides with finishing work? Maybe I need a new job

1515 0.2 ml CBD:THC oil

1630 0.3ml CBD:THC oil

1830 Managed a small nap

1900 14mg Lurasidone. Depression lessened. About 2/10

2030 moderate depression low level anxiety

2230 0.125mg clonazepam

[Altostrata]

What is the withdrawal symptom element in that symptom pattern? It looks like effects of too many "brakes" to me. @Shep, what do you think?

[Thorin]

I have been substantially better since I posted this. To the point where I’ve started thinking about my next drop in dose. I have this planned for January I think. It seemed like I had to get through that depression and then everything improved. Not perfect, but probably the best it’s been since I started reducing the Lurasidone. Seems to me I’d unknowingly been dropping too fast and my brain’s only just catching up now.

[Sadie1]

4 hours ago, Thorin said:

I have been substantially better since I posted this. To the point where I’ve started thinking about my next drop in dose. I have this planned for January I think. It seemed like I had to get through that depression and then everything improved. Not perfect, but probably the best it’s been since I started reducing the Lurasidone. Seems to me I’d unknowingly been dropping too fast and my brain’s only just catching up now.

That’s great Thorin! 

[Thorin]

Thanks @Sadie1. Terrified of starting the dose reductions again. Will wait until January then drop by a very small amount to test the waters.

[Thorin]

So anxiety is the worst. When I was on a ‘therapeutic’ dose of medication I frequently had strong spikes of anxiety that could last a long time. They were intense but I had this ability to ‘suppress’ or ‘work along side them’. I could drink vast quantities of caffeine, take stimulants, do scary things and just put the anxiety to the side, even though it was very strong. The meds caused a disconnect with my body which I believe I was taking advantage of. Since dropping my medication dose the way I experience, and respond to anxiety has changed. The sharp spike that were always present are not there anymore. Instead I get ‘waves’ of moderate anxiety. But not all the time. When they do occur rather than be able to compartmentalise them, I feel it with my whole body and mind. It’s not as strong but much more pervasive. I can no longer ‘ignore’ my anxiety (I don’t believe I truly ignored it before. It effected me quite badly but it was somehow easier to tolerate I think?). It’s so hard to put this anxiety aside, and hard to continue whatever I’m doing and just feel it at the same time because I now feel it in my whole body. Very strange. Not as sharp, not as intense, but in other ways much more intense and more pervasive. I hope this is a withdrawal symptom and not something I have to live with the rest of my life. It’s an intolerable feeling!

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, Thorin said:

It’s so hard to put this anxiety aside, and hard to continue whatever I’m doing and just feel it at the same time because I now feel it in my whole body.

 

When did this sensation appear? Why do you think it's a withdrawal symptom?

 

Is it more or less prominent at any particular times of day?

[Thorin]

@Altostrata the anxiety only started to feel like this once I started reducing Latuda. It may be my underlying anxiety that is no longer being effected by medication. I don’t know. I feel it most between 8.30am and 4.30pm although it can occur any time of the day. I think it’s exacerbated at those times by the stress of work. Experiencing anxiety in this way only started a few months ago I think. 

[Thorin]

@Altostrata I think maybe it’s worse early afternoon to mid afternoon. I’ll monitor it more closely.

[Altostrata]

We cannot tell anything about your symptom pattern in past months because you were drinking.

 

With your drug burden, is unlikely you are experiencing "underlying" anxiety or anything else. Daily notes are useful for identifying causes of a symptom pattern.

[Thorin]

I am not a regular drinker. I am sure to a large degree the symptoms I have been experiencing is my brain playing catch up to a too quick taper of Lurasidone. You think the anxiety I’m experiencing is not just ‘my anxiety’? That’s a relief.

[Thorin]

Had a window there for a while. Definitely back in a wave. Was definitely pushing myself too hard and this is a good lesson that I just need to take care of myself and take it slow. Struggling

[Altostrata]

Intermittent drinking can also cause a chaotic symptom pattern, as we informed you before.

 

The anxiety is probably a paradoxical reaction from overuse of clonazepam or an interaction with lurisidone -- too many "brakes" -- or hypersensitivity to caffeine or something else in your environment.

[Thorin]

Thanks @Altostrata. Seeing as I have to taper off the meds slowly I’m assuming the anxiety is just something I’ll have to live with until I get off the meds completely? 
 

I understand that even intermittent drinking has long term effects and understand how this will have impacted my symptoms in the past. I am trying hard to be healthy and ‘do the right thing’ in order to heal as fast as possible.