☼ Petunia: recovering from 13 years of antidepressant use

[Petunia]

You may feel disoriented, but you are making perfect sense, so please don't concern yourself with that.

 

Thank you so much for writing this Barb, I have an abnormal fear of going psychotic, losing touch with reality and not realizing it, because of something which happened to me in my 20's (over 25 years ago).  I don't think I've mentioned it in my thread in any detail, but its been something which has 'haunted' me my whole life since, I may have some repressed anger related to it also.  I have a long history of being mistreated and misdiagnosed by medicine.

 

I'm feeling a bit better this afternoon, so I'm going to try and catch up with my thread now.

[Petunia]

This seems like a common pattern.  27 months, that must have been hell.  How long has the exhaustion been effect?  Does it let up occasionally?

 

 

 

I've had exhaustion alternating with anxiety in a kind of wave pattern ever since the withdrawal started.  But previously, the exhaustion has felt more like depression, located mostly in my mind, a kind of psychological deadness mostly.  But since starting the taurine its changed, there has actually been a slight lift in my mood (thoughts), and this exhaustion has become predominately physical, which is a change for me.  I'm still feeling mentally and emotionally exhausted at times, but now, I will suddenly get this feeling like if I don't lay down, close my eyes and go to sleep, right now, I will collapse.  I went for 2 walks this morning, that's never happened before, but when I was almost home from the last one I got that 'about to collapse' feeling and got scared.

 

This is probably going to sound strange, but there is something 'nice' about being physically exhausted for no good reason.  Anything physical tends to add legitimacy to this 'thing', its like, if I'm in actual physical pain or can't stand up for one second longer, then this has to be real, its not all just in my imagination.

 

Having the fear/dread/terror go away, only to be replaced with pain and exhaustion one day later has been very disappointing and depressing. Its shaken my stability too, the unpredictable nature of this is frightening.

 

That was a very long answer to a short question .... yes, the exhaustion lets up, but it hits frighteningly fast.

 

I know EXACTLY what you mean, and as always, it's eerie.  Wouldn't it be nice if we could all identify with each other through all the nice things we experienced?  Here it's always, "Aha!  I recognize that horrific indescribable psycho-physical situation exactly!"  Sigh.

 

 

Yes, I agree, but I find it so comforting and validating when someone else relates to one of these horrific, weird mind/body states.  If there is one other person in the world who knows what I'm talking about and can 'mirror' it back to me, then I don't feel so completely alone.  We probably all have a basic human need to have our emotions, good and bad reflected back, to a certain extent, in order for us to feel...... connected and understood.  So it makes it difficult if a lot of what we are experiencing (neuro-emotions and withdrawal states) is outside of the field of what most people in our life ever know.

 

This is just my theory, but I think if someone had the kind of childhood where they were emotionally supported and had good mirroring by connected caretakers, then they probably have an easier time as an adult being able to stay emotionally centered during stressful and strange times.

 

There should be re-parenting clinics for adults, where we could go and get all our unmet childhood needs met so that we can finally become emotional adults properly.

 

 

I think I know what you mean about the psychic people...I feel very, very suspicious of people who are trying to help me in some impersonal way, doctors, counselors etc...suspicion isn't quite the right word.  It's not as if I really think about it, it's as if the resistance is built right into my body...and when it manifests itself it becomes an urge to challenge them.  I wonder if you're experiencing something similar.  It's so weird because I was never like this in the past.  Doesn't sound like you were either.

 

 

I used to be a very trusting person, probably too trusting, naive may be a better word. I also used to believe that people in authority had my best interests at heart and 'experts' and 'specialists' and 'people who sold stuff' always knew what they were talking about, told the truth and were mostly good people.

 

The last 10 years of my life has woken me up. I still think that most people are good, but now its become clear that a lot of the time, something stands between peoples' desire to do good and their ability.

 

I do believe that some people have genuine psychic ability, actually, I think everyone has the potential of developing it, but 99.9% of people who claim to be psychic are most likely deluding themselves and everyone else who believes they are.

 

 

The feeling of disentegration you keep describing sounds a lot like passages in the Buddhist works I've been reading.  I'm wondering if it isn't entirely a bad thing.  Goethe says we have to die to ourselves in order to live, and as people have posted here, the great myths always make their heroes undergo some sort of descent/disintegration.  You may be more 'on track' than you think.  Did you look at the thread here, I think it's called "The Descent Experience"?  

 

I read that blog article, not on this site, but from the original source here:

 

http://neuroscienceandpsi.blogspot.com.au/2013_01_01_archive.html

 

and also this one from from the same blog:

Psychotropic medication recovery, Kundalini, and shamanic initiatory illness

http://neuroscienceandpsi.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/psychotropic-medication-recovery.html

 

I've actually been on a 'spiritual path' for a very long time, beginning in my early teens when I found myself spontaneously meditating when I didn't even know what it was or that it had a name.  In my 20's I was reading Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff and playing around with Osho's Dynamic Meditation.  I was determined to get rid of my pesky ego and reach 'enlightenment', not that I had any idea what it really was.  I didn't have the proper support, it just wasn't available here in Australia back then, I got myself into a lot of trouble and ended up being 'helped' by the only kind of help available..... psychiatry.  All I needed was a good nights sleep and someone to put my experiences in the proper context so I could understand what was going on.  Instead I got a shot in my 'you know where' and a misdiagnosis, which absolutely freaked me out because I knew it wasn't true, but there it was, I messed around with something I shouldn't have and got myself labelled for life. I was told I would be taking anti-psychotics for the rest of my life - the old, horrible ones that cause terrible, permanent side effects..... this is turning into a story I wasn't ready to tell.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I hope you are right Narcissus, after my first experience with psychiatry, which I'd actually been fascinated with up until that point,  I was scared off anything spiritual for a vary long time.  I stopped taking the drugs as soon as I was released from hospital, they made me suicidal anyway, I wouldn't have survived if I had stayed on them.  I 'recovered' completely within about 2 months and for years devoted myself to trying to live as 'normal' a life as possible.... but it was difficult because I knew there was more to life, I'd seen it.  I really wasn't cut out for a traditional marriage, family and a 9-5, so when I asked to be put on Zoloft for anxiety when I was in my 30's, it probably took the edge off my spiritual drive which was always threatening to bubble up to the surface and drag me off looking for 'the truth', when I had school lunches to pack and shirts to iron.

 

So when I stopped taking Lexapro and eventually crashed, before I found this site and discovered that I was actually in withdrawal, I though that what was happening to me was some kind of spiritual thing, my kundalini on the move again or my chakras being unblocked or that I was having a 'dark night of the soul' or descent experience as its called here. I had started meditating again, reading spiritual texts and doing chi gong/tai chi

 

I really didn't know, I had also stumbled onto an anxiety web site and joined that, thinking that maybe it was my nervous system not working properly due to stress. I had gone through a very stressful separation and divorce, lost several court battles, lost our home, lost my business and ability to study and went through and lost another very intense relationship, while raising a teenage daughter by myself.

 

But according to the article above, about medication recovery, Kundalini etc, it doesn't have to be just one thing.... so I'm still a bit confused about what's going on with me.

 

But thankfully, the pain in the right side of my head was much less today and the migraine that I've had on and off all week didn't last too long today.  I went for 2 walks and did grocery shopping all before lunch time.  I had a nice chat with my dad, I haven't seen him in a while, I raked up some leaves and managed to eat twice, even though the thought of food at the moment is making me feel nauseous.

 

 

 

[Petunia]

As Narcissus said, we absolutely don't feel you are no longer there or that your core identity has been changed or that it has gone. I very much feel you still there and emanating the essence of Petu, if I can say that. The only thing that I notice to be different is your town which comesa cross as more subdued than usually (and in quite contrast to your recent post after you started taking Taurine which were more upbeat than your regular ones).

 

'Essence of Petu'  lol sounds like the name of one of those designer fragrances.  My user name happened completely by accident, I typed in the name of a flower, but it was rejected, already taken I suppose, so I just backspaced and when I got down to petu, it accepted it, so I figured that would do.  A while back I did a search on google to find out if petu actually meant anything.....    It came up in an urban dictionary as an acronym for 'People for the Ethical Treatment of the Undead'

 

That would be about right for the way I'm feeling at the moment, very much like a zombie, an empty body going through the motions of life.  But if there is still some kind of identity coming across through what I'm writing, and its not just random words or meaningless phrases, then I will try and relax. 

 

This feeling of having no identity isn't new, its been happening on and off.  At times its felt wonderful, like a kind of blissful freedom from having to be something I'm not, but this time, since going into withdrawal, its been happening, but its created fear for some reason.  When I started on the taurine and the fear/dread dropped away, it was like a huge chunk of my current temporary identity disappeared.  A huge part of withdrawal was gone, I was 'cured', I'm no longer a person in protracted withdrawal from antidepressants, now who am I going to be?  Not that I even want an identity, they are limiting, but other people get very uncomfortable very quickly if they can't fit me into a familiar category, so they know how to relate to me.  When other people are uncomfortable, I pick it up and then I become uncomfortable, so not having an identity, even though I don't want one, is a difficult way to live because I'm continually having to deal with feeling uncomfortable because other people are uncomfortable because I don't actually exist, I have to pretend to be someone and that has always felt wrong, it takes so much energy.

 

Now that my energy is getting weaker and I'm getting more and more exhausted, I'm having less energy to put into creating an ongoing, stable identity.  If I just relax, there is nothing here, and then nothing happens.... that's no way to live life, just being relaxed and doing nothing..... apart from what is needed for survival.  Can you imagine what would happen to society and the economy if everyone did that.  Everyone needs an identity, maybe several, identities need to be fed to keep them alive and feeding our identities keeps the economy running, keeps society rolling along smoothly.

 

Well, anyway, I'm glad I'm still appearing to have an identity and everyone is still comfortable, or as comfortable as withdrawal allows.

 

I had one very strong impression aftre reading your first account about the Taurine experience. It was something like: OMG, this is so very strange, somehow unnatural, something similar to how drugs manipulate the way we feel and consequently who we come across as being. Yes, anxiety-free state is something we are all striving for but I was thinking that I would feel utterly naked shoudl I be stripped of my anxiety at once.

 

But if you were free from anxiety, then being utterly naked would only feel like freedom.... freedom from the shackles of anxiety.  I would love to instantly be free from all forms of anxiety/fear/fight/flight/freeze response.

 

The only part which has stopped is the psychological part.  I was concerned I wasn't explaining it well and maybe I'm not.  Its a huge improvement for me, only because this has been so bad for such a long time, and probably my worst symptom and one which has been preventing me from really even starting to recover because of the ongoing trauma its been causing over and over every morning and through the day, preventing me from doing things which aid recovery.

 

Its been like trying to recover from being hit on the head by a rock, while more rocks keep hitting the same spot.  I'm still waking up with high cortisol, its still effecting my body..... inner vibrations and trembling, waves of heat and sweating, cold chills, nausea, dizziness, a physical feeling of extreme vulnerability.  But the fearful thoughts have stopped and waves of dread which would roll through me like huge emotional brushes, bringing up painful memories and feelings like clouds of choking dust.  Every morning, with the sun came a new dose of horror, unleashed from my subconscious which was left open from the last dream.  I'm still experiencing traces of it, as I pass through that half and half stage between sleep and wake.  Its still not pleasant being awake because all the physical symptoms are still there and they are holding to the same pattern, staying strong until mid afternoon - early evening.  Added to them this week has been head pain and physical exhaustion.

 

I walked to the park this morning at 8am, not because I was feeling good or even wanted to go for a walk, I was feeling awful, physically and like I was completely dead inside, but I could go because there wasn't any overwhelming emotional dread preventing me from walking out the door and adding more trauma with every step I took away from the safety of home.  So, I think today's 2 walks actually did me some good.  I started out feeling completely dead inside, but after a while, the sun on my skin started to feel pleasant.  It was a fairly cool day today for a change.  I sat on a bench for a while, there were lots of little birds flying around.  At first I felt nothing, but then I started to feel a kind of energy like as if I was part of them and I was flying with them, I was no longer sitting on the bench, I was soaring through the air like a little bird, it was quite exhilarating for a few seconds.  But I felt like I was going to collapse on the walk home, so maybe I overdid the flying for my first attempt.

 

 

 

 

 

My first ‘diagnosis’ (which was actually a description of my state) was anxiety-depressive disorder. I began to see it as a natural response of a malfunctioning system: after all the mobilization of physical and mental energy that anxiety induces, our body and mind protect themselves by switching off to allow for a period of recharging when we just sleep or accumulate energy in some other ways. I can’t explain this better but I hope you understand what I mean.

 

 

Yes I do know what you mean and it makes perfect sense.  When I went to request medication for what I had self diagnosed as anxiety, I was annoyed that I also received the diagnosis of depression.  They seemed to be linked together in my doctors mind, but I never considered I had depression, just anxiety.  But when I really think back, I do see a pattern.  If I was doing things I found fun, exciting and non-anxiety provoking, I had lots of energy and could work for hours and hours without a break.  But if I was doing something which caused anxiety, I would get tired very quickly and need to go home or take a break and then be exhausted early in the night.  Of course I've done my best most of my life to avoid things which cause anxiety, so perhaps that's been what's caused me to miss seeing the pattern clearly.  I still don't think I would automatically call it depression though, for me it would have been anxiety/exhaustion.  I never got depressed as in feeling sad and lifeless, like as if my life had no meaning or that I lost interest in things or my drive to do things.  I would have the occasional down day, but before going on Zoloft, I was optimistic and hopeful and always interested in new things and ideas and being positive about the future.  Zoloft caused me to become depressed, it started about 2 weeks after I began taking it.  I'm depressed now, 2+ years of withdrawal is enough to make anyone depressed.

 

I really think there is a difference between fatigue and depression.  Fatigue after burning up a lot of energy after a day of anxiety is one thing.  But I don't think that should be called depression.  I think that you could get depression from anxiety, but only if anxiety had become an overwhelming problem in life that couldn't be dealt with that caused a lot of grief and loss with no solutions in sight. Like if anxiety was so bad it cause agoraphobia and stopped you from doing anything enjoyable, or prevented you from working towards important goals, then I could see there being a connection.

 

When I came home from my second walk and collapsed on my bed, I don't see that as depression, to me, that's fatigue, it passed after I had laid there a while.  When I wake up in the morning, overwhelmed by symptoms.... again, and remember how long its been going on, how much of my life I've lost and wonder if I'm ever going to be well again, and feel hopeless and helpless to do anything to improve my situation, a heavy sadness comes over me and there is no emotional energy to get me moving because nothing is going to make me feel better or improve my life..... this is what I call depression.

 

I think of depression as ongoing suffering of any kind, combined with feeling helpless to do anything about it and not seeing that there will be an end to it.

 

 

This is rambling indeed but I’m really fascinated by what is going on with you. (Sorry for the use of this word when you are in distress ;(

 

I’m again acutely aware of how grateful I am to be a part of this community. Without it, we would be totally isolated in times of encountering some of the most painful and scariest of human experiences that strike at the very core of what being human is.

 

I’m glad we are here for each other

 

  Its ok, when I'm not feeling absolutely awful, I also find this fascinating, my own situation and everyone else.  This withdrawal is such a strange and puzzling creature.

 

I agree with what you wrote above, I'm glad we are here for each other

 

(hugs)

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Hi Petu,

 

I have a bunch of ideas swirling around in my head after reading your latest note. I do not know if I can get them out right or if it will really matter if I do.

 

I read the wiki article on taurine and it is technically not an amino acid. It is mentioned on some sites as helping to deal with anxiety. It apparently assists in nerve transmissions. I wonder if the reason you feel disoriented after your previous state of upset (for lack of a more descriptive word) is that it is a change and you are not used to feeling different. I know that I for one am reacting badly to changes in how my body feels, it takes a while to get used to feeling a certain way, even if it is a way we don't like. When things get 'better' that takes some getting used to.

 

I felt the same way about 'spirituality' as you did when I was younger but now I think it was a way of trying to escape the awful feelings I always had inside and I didn't know how to get away from them. Always hoping for a miracle. I have no understanding of life and my purpose in it right now, probable because the withdrawal is all in my thinking and experience. Everything is strange to me but slightly less alarming than it was in the recent past. When the dust settles, I do not know if any 'good' feelings will return for me because the good feelings were always tied to something like a possession or doing something. Do people have good feelings just because? I cleaned up the bathroom a bit the other day and felt very agitated afterwards. I told mom about my reaction and she said I should have felt 'good' because I accomplished something. I didn't.

 

For me, right now, I have dumped ALL of my 'spiritual' quests. As I see it, I sure followed a lot of paths that just made me more confused because I saw myself as I wanted to be and not how I really was. Believed everything, really accomplished nothing, except that working on it and not getting the results I envisioned probably led to depression and medication. We all know how that worked out. So now I am concentrating on just trying to maintain myself physically, maybe just trying to let my body 'recover' (whatever that is) and not get so dreadfully sick like I was last November. Eat 3 meals a day, even if some of them are ready made. Drink water, try to walk a little. Do what HAS to be done but not much else. Take a few supplements (taurine, mag citrate, vit c). Everything else is on hold, maybe for a long while.

 

I see you have added a post while I was typing so I will stop now. I have no hope that what I have written helps you any or makes any sense. I always seemed to live life in my 'head' and so now concentrating on maintaining some sense of routine physically (like eating and sleeping) and avoiding added stress is what I should be doing and maybe what I should have been doing in my life before this.

 

I hope you can hang on and reach some level of comfort that stabilizes and that you continue to write about your experience. you are precious.

[Petunia]

 I would guess it is good that the constant fear and dread has been replaced by sleepiness, that surely has to be very healing. And I have to say I am jealous. My somewhat constant alertness in the wee hours of the morning is preventing any kind of deep sleep. I have to admit I am jealous of those who can sleep during the day.

 

Thank you CW, I'm trying to see the exhaustion/sleepiness as a positive and something which will help me to start recovering properly.  My ability to sleep during the day still isn't great though, its still under the influence of high cortisol.  If I do manage to fall asleep before about 1pm, I can probably sleep for a few minutes before waking up, and its still with a bit of a jolt, but up until this week, I wouldn't have been able to even fall asleep.  Afternoon naps are becoming a possibility though, I've been managing up to an hour.  This happened a few times before the taurine, so it was going to happen eventually. I'm still waking up fairly early, with the birds around 5am, but then I have stopped using my ear plugs. You will get there, if you find the tourine helps a bit, perhaps try taking a little bit more.

 

What you wrote about being jealous of people who can sleep reminded me of something I read in a blog yesterday.  Actually it upset me a bit.... not what you wrote, but what happened in the blog.  This really nice woman writes a blog about her chronic illness, I can't remember which illness, but its a well known one and medically recognized.  Anyway, in one of her entries she admitted that sometimes when she reads about other people with the same condition who are managing better than she is, she feels jealous.  She got very badly attacked for being open and honest about her feelings, she got insulted and criticized for feeling jealous.  She was already struggling with a lot of difficult symptoms, was running the blog to help other people feel less alone and this cruel comment set her back for a long time and almost made her close her blog.

 

We need these safe spaces to feel supported and accepted for who we are in our pain and struggles.  We all have a dark, shadow side with unpleasant feelings, its by facing them, admitting them and releasing them that we are able to take control of our lives.  Its when we deny having any 'bad' feelings and refuse to feel them, that they stay secret and control us from the shadows, hurting other people without our even being aware.

 

I sometimes feel jealous when I read about some of the fun things others are able to do, especially things that I couldn't do even if I was completely well, like hike up a snow covered mountain, or go snow shoeing or build a snowman, or shovel snow, or complain about snow.  I miss snow.

 

I hope you start to feel better again soon

(hugs)

[Petunia]

 

As for the shower -- after I saw Psycho in college, I've had clear plastic shower curtains ever since. I can't bear to be closed in and not being able to see out in the shower.

 

I'd forgotten that movie, I bet I'm going to think about it next time I have a shower

[bubble]

Very thought provoking, enjoyed reading it tremendously but finally got productive at work was high time....

 

the essence of Petu: hilarious )) practicing my use of English among other things, turned you into a perfume

 

I somehow made up an explanation for myself that Petu is an 'Australian' that is aboriginal word or a concept so never even questioned my interpretation, had no idea it was random, let alone that acronym. But hey, we are undead! isn't that great

 

 

I would have loads to say on the topic of identity (especially since once upon a time when I told my doc I felt like going to a hospital while being very anxious following my illusion I would get peace and quiet there. To justify this, I got another label of borderline personality disorder. At the time I was concerned it meant that I was on the border of becoming psychotic. When I asked my doctor what it meant he told me it was a metaphor!  But know other docs are just copying it and it might cause me serious problems... But I still don't understand what that label means to people who use it except that when I read about it I get very concerned about my sense of identity....

 

so much on this superficial level. On the other level I feel very much like you. I just see myself as being very flexible and having problems because I can't set my borders or don't feel them clearly...

 

will enjoy more of your reading tomorrow.

 

My Taurine hasn't arrived yet. They could be still looking for my tiny country on the map

[mammaP]

Petu, you are describing in detail how I was for years after effexor 'pooped out',

I was high and doing all kinds of things for a while but anxious too, had to be doing

something but not quite having the energy. Hated going out and became reclusive,

making things and internet shopping. Then it pooped on me (pun intended  )

and I was just what you describe.  Exhausted, completely exhausted with all the 

symptoms of fibro/cfs.  Not quite here, not interested in anything or feeling much emotion.

Just existing day to day.  

 

I think this is another stage of your healing, if you feel tired, then sleep, sleep is good and 

you can always start working on the bodyclock later if necessary.  This too shall pass.

I also hate the shower! Hate getting undressed then under that spray.  Hate getting dressed

again after it. Hate tugging the knots from my hair and drying it. 

I could so easily be one of those reclusive smelly ladies who hoard things and get on the telly ! 

 

 ( I am not making fun of those ladies, but I kind of understand how they get to be in that situation )

[Petunia]

Thanks MammaP, its always so difficult when things change and you don't know what's going on.  Something improves, but then something else is worse and then new symptoms arise...... is it a good thing, or a bad thing?  Am I doing something wrong?

 

I had dreams filled with grief and loss last night.  Have woken up feeling grief stricken, remembering some of the details of the dreams.  Is this the grief stage of withdrawal?  I've gone through the terror stage, now I'm going to be processing grief?  It would have been nice to have had a break of more than one day.

 

I'm sorry, I'm just worn out, don't know what to think, what to believe.  I know I'm not alone in going through this.  But I feel so alone and I think that's just another of the symptoms.

 

Its really early in the morning here for me, 6:30 am.  A few months ago it was impossible for me to even read anything, let alone be typing and writing at this time of the morning.  The overwhelming fear and dread is gone and for some reason my morning blurry eyesight has got better.

 

But now I'm heavy with grief.  Everything I look at and think about reminds me that one day its going to be gone.  Nothing has changed in reality, but I used to be able to block out that reality, now it flooding through me.  Last week, fear was flooding through me, now I have grief flooding through me.

 

Is this just another neuro-emotion, or has the fear been peeled away to expose a deeper layer of 'stuff' I need to work through?

 

A few nights ago I dreamed that my daughter was a baby and she had died, but then she came back to life again.  Last night I dreamed it was Christmas and a song was playing, a girl was singing about losing her boyfriend on a previous year, he had died and so she was sad at Christmas.   In the dream I was feeling her loss and was sobbing, I was holding onto a wall because I was in so much pain, I woke up with my stomach heaving, exhausted.  I'm not sure how much more of this I can take,  on an emotional level I seem to be living through lifetimes of pain and suffering.

 

I can't read other people's threads at the moment, I've tried several times over the last couple of days, but something has changed, I've become very sensitive to anything sad and I'm getting triggered too easily, the only way I can deal with it is to completely shut myself down emotionally and then I have no empathy or compassion.  I don't want to write on any one else's thread when I'm so shut down.

 

Yesterday I was thinking about what it must be like to work as a doctor, (a GP, or PCP), seeing sick people all day, every day, year.  after year.  After a while, I would think most doctors realize that they are not curing anyone, but are just holding their patients together, keeping them going for a few more years..... and yet somehow they have to keep doing the work they were trained to do.  I can see how some of them might lose their initial sensitivity and compassion, out of self protection, just so they can keep working.  I've watched my own GP change over the years, not that I've seen him in over a year.

 

This morning I'm realizing how difficult it is to be born as a human.  We have an awareness and understanding greater than any other creature on this planet, but that increased awareness and understanding of reality can cause us a lot of suffering..... I thought I was going somewhere with this, but that seems to be it.

 

I'm just feeling really sad..... for all of us, pondering one of those big questions again, what is the point of life?  If we live it consciously, then its painful and raw, but if we sleepwalk through life, just going through the motions, playing our roles, then its robotic and seems meaningless..... I don't know... I'm confused and tired and not sure how I'm going to get through the rest of the day.

[tezza]

Hi Petu,

 

I'm sorry you're having a rough time! I've had those same feelings, the fear, the grief, the sadness, the dreams. For a long time, I couldn't watch the news or read the paper. The bad or sad news is just too much shock for our sensitive CNS to handle. There's still some things I can't watch or look at.

 

The dreams have gotten better for the most part, too, but those sound like dreams I could have. Night before last, I dreamed a former supervisor was looking for his son that had been arrested the evening before but was released and no one had seen or heard from him since. The man's face was so worried looking and I could feel his pain. It's hard to shake dreams off sometimes, it's like that feeling follows you throughout the day, for me.

 

Just try to take it easy today. I'll be thinking of you...

[Narcissus]

Hey Petu, on my phone so I can't respond at length. Here is a no nonsense passage on the spiritual path, "the hard way".

 

"Once we commit ourselves to the spiritual path, it is very painful and we are in for it. We have committed ourselves to the pain of exposing ourselves, of taking off our clothes, our skin, nerves, heart, brains, until we are exposed to the universe. Nothing will be left. It will be terrible, excruciating, but that is the way it is.

 

Somehow we find ourselves in the presence of a strange doctor. He is going to operate on us, but he is not going to use an anaesthetic because he really wants to communicate with our illness. He is not going to allow us to put on our facade of spirituality, psychological sophistication, false psychological illness or any other disguise. We wish we had never met him. We wish we understood how to anarsthetize ourselves. But now we are in for it. There is no way out.

 

This operation is the only way to communicate with ourselves, so we must accept it. The more we ask questions, "What are you going to do to me?", the more embarrassed we become, because we know what we are. It is an extremely narrow path with no escape, a painful path...the hard way."

 

The ''physician" he's discussing is a guru, but I think we can think of withdrawal in the same way.

[Narcissus]

*anesthetize

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

oh dear Petu,

 

It breaks my heart to hear what you are going through, such grief and sadness. I hope it wears off as the day passes, even if a little bit. What soul crushing places we find ourselves in and it's not our fault one bit.

 

Nar, what a haunting passage that is. I have no words.

[areyouthere]

Thanks MammaP, its always so difficult when things change and you don't know what's going on.  Something improves, but then something else is worse and then new symptoms arise...... is it a good thing, or a bad thing?  Am I doing something wrong?

 

I had dreams filled with grief and loss last night.  Have woken up feeling grief stricken, remembering some of the details of the dreams.  Is this the grief stage of withdrawal?  I've gone through the terror stage, now I'm going to be processing grief?  It would have been nice to have had a break of more than one day.

 

I'm sorry, I'm just worn out, don't know what to think, what to believe.  I know I'm not alone in going through this.  But I feel so alone and I think that's just another of the symptoms.

 

Its really early in the morning here for me, 6:30 am.  A few months ago it was impossible for me to even read anything, let alone be typing and writing at this time of the morning.  The overwhelming fear and dread is gone and for some reason my morning blurry eyesight has got better.

 

But now I'm heavy with grief.  Everything I look at and think about reminds me that one day its going to be gone.  Nothing has changed in reality, but I used to be able to block out that reality, now it flooding through me.  Last week, fear was flooding through me, now I have grief flooding through me.

 

Is this just another neuro-emotion, or has the fear been peeled away to expose a deeper layer of 'stuff' I need to work through?

 

A few nights ago I dreamed that my daughter was a baby and she had died, but then she came back to life again.  Last night I dreamed it was Christmas and a song was playing, a girl was singing about losing her boyfriend on a previous year, he had died and so she was sad at Christmas.   In the dream I was feeling her loss and was sobbing, I was holding onto a wall because I was in so much pain, I woke up with my stomach heaving, exhausted.  I'm not sure how much more of this I can take,  on an emotional level I seem to be living through lifetimes of pain and suffering.

 

I can't read other people's threads at the moment, I've tried several times over the last couple of days, but something has changed, I've become very sensitive to anything sad and I'm getting triggered too easily, the only way I can deal with it is to completely shut myself down emotionally and then I have no empathy or compassion.  I don't want to write on any one else's thread when I'm so shut down.

 

Yesterday I was thinking about what it must be like to work as a doctor, (a GP, or PCP), seeing sick people all day, every day, year.  after year.  After a while, I would think most doctors realize that they are not curing anyone, but are just holding their patients together, keeping them going for a few more years..... and yet somehow they have to keep doing the work they were trained to do.  I can see how some of them might lose their initial sensitivity and compassion, out of self protection, just so they can keep working.  I've watched my own GP change over the years, not that I've seen him in over a year.

 

This morning I'm realizing how difficult it is to be born as a human.  We have an awareness and understanding greater than any other creature on this planet, but that increased awareness and understanding of reality can cause us a lot of suffering..... I thought I was going somewhere with this, but that seems to be it.

 

I'm just feeling really sad..... for all of us, pondering one of those big questions again, what is the point of life?  If we live it consciously, then its painful and raw, but if we sleepwalk through life, just going through the motions, playing our roles, then its robotic and seems meaningless..... I don't know... I'm confused and tired and not sure how I'm going to get through the rest of the day.

Petu… I hope that the rest of your day was ok. This is hard work… very hard. I can feel your exhaustion in your writing.

 

I like what Narc posted…especially this: "Once we commit ourselves to the spiritual path, it is very painful and we are in for it. We have committed ourselves to the pain of exposing ourselves, of taking off our clothes, our skin, nerves, heart, brains, until we are exposed to the universe. Nothing will be left. It will be terrible, excruciating, but that is the way it is."

 

I don't know about you but because of what I my psyche perceived as family trauma I was wounded in profound ways. Ways that I know I haven't explored and defined yet. I think I've touched the surface of some, but sense there is more to explore. 

 

Part of the purpose of self medicating , and that includes ( for ME) seeking a quick fix for my depression and anxiety, and again for ME was a way of postponing having to work through those family issues. I really had no choice. And so I don't blame myself. I was one leg of a three legged stool. I HAD to self medicate to survive and in the meantime I just happened to create my own family for myself that is functional & has helped me to define who I am WITHOUT the other legs of the stool.  

 

But I view the initial realization a year or so ago that the drugs were hindering me , holding me back, hurting more than helping, was a sign that it was time to move on...commit ourselves ( myself) to the spiritual path, it is very painful and we are in for it.  

 

​My journey is just beginning… yours maybe is farther down your path …. ?

 

You are experiencing some very powerful stuff and it sounds very, very frightening and exhausting. I just hope that you know that you will get back SO MUCH MORE peace than you are pain once you walk through this darkness. I truly believe that.

 

I personally am scared to death to pass through the door that you are currently behind but also KNOW that as you are, I will be STRONG ENOUGH to come out the other side… to meet the calm.

 

Thinking of you on this day and at this moment. RU

[Petunia]

I got distracted earlier by another thread that lead to a website belonging to Bliss John, a name I remember hearing many years ago, probably in my new age years in calif. I started reading the recovery stories there and am reminded that my recovery is not over yet no matter how 'well' I may feel. I also had a 'louise hay' period back then too and actually went to one of her meetings in SD (back in the 80's). It was helpful when I first considered the concepts but over time I found they didn't work like I wanted them to and I drifted away.

 

I'm part way through reading my thread from the beginning and came across part of this comment from CW5600 and it reminded me of something I listened to recently.  Apparently, the popular 'new-age' techniques of manifesting, affirmations and positive thinking haven't worked for a lot of people.  None of it ever worked for me and I spent years ignoring all the affirmations I had posted up around various houses I've lived in.

 

When 'The Secret' appeared several years ago, I was excited, thinking it was something new, and managed to get hold of a copy.  But I quickly realized that it wasn't new, and wasn't going to work either.  It seems that what these quick fix new age tricks of manifestation of abundance leave out, its the reality that most of us have core issues which need to be healed before we are able to utilize these skills.  If we have unconscious inner wounds from childhood, they tend to sabotage our efforts to create better lives for ourselves.

 

This has certainly been true for me.  The page and broadcast I listened to recently is titled

The New Laws of Manifesting: Why “The Secret” Should Have Stayed One!

I'm not recommending the site, particularly, but this article explains why a lot of people have been disappointed.

[bubble]

dear Petu,

 

i was typing for 2 hours from my phone and the hotel internet connection broke and everything is lost ;(

 

maybe as a punishment for having hijacked your thread after I got inspired to describe my recent episode of loss.

 

I ended with a positive remark concerning you that maybe the fact that you are going through this intense period where your feelings change abruptly after they were stuck for 27 months could mean something is busy mending itself, healing, recovering.

 

However painful it is.

 

Also quoted the Awakening by Kate Chopin from memory:the beginning of all thing, the world in particular, is necessarily painful and full of uncertainties (the rest is too pessimistic).

 

I love what you wrote on the topic of The Secret (a total rubbish) and couldn't agree more about quick fixes...

[bubble]

vague, chaotic and exceedingly disturbing, that's what the old Kate actually wrote about beginnings

[mammaP]

Petu I can feel your pain as I'm reading and send the squishiest mamma hug ever. 

I wish I could deliver it in person.  Do what you need to do and don't worry about the

rest. We are all here for you, don't worry about reading threads if they distress you.

Take care of you. I hope this period moves along to the next stage of your healing

quickly, and hope the next stage is a good one. 

[tezza]

Yes, Petu, I agree with mP....I think it goes without saying sometimes that mods/admins can't be participate at all/any time. That's why we have several. I admire those who put so much more into the forum than I can possibly do right now.

 

Everyone understands if you're not able to read about sad situations. You will get past this, just hold on the best you can.

 

HUGS!

[alex]

Petu, as I've told you, the 9 month mark can be the worst for w/d.

Hang in there; you are doing a great job.

Your articulate, intelligent, courageus posts say a lot about yourself.

You WILL be fine.It's just that when you are feeling bad is so hard to believe it.

 

A big hug to you.

[Altostrata]

Please, Petu, take care of yourself. We think a lot of you here, and we want you to feel better.

[Petunia]

Thanks everyone for your support.  I got through yesterday by spending most of it reading through my own thread.  I was looking for evidence of improvement to reinstate my hope.  But what helped the most was reading back through all the support I have got, some of it was like I was reading it for the first time, at the time I may have been unable to 'hear' some of it.

 

I usually take my taurine between 5:30am and 6am, when I wake up, yesterday I had forgotten.  I took it about 8am.  It took the edge off the intense grief within about an hour.  I even managed to go for a walk at about 9 and it was ok.

 

Narcissus - I like what you wrote, but its scary.  And true.  Withdrawal is as capable of stripping our souls bare as any authentic spiritual guru. I'm actually smiling right now because something just made perfect sense to me.  I've resisted following a teacher or guru or even taking up a formal practice my whole life.  Now I've been given one that I can't escape from.

 

More emotionally intense dreams last night, but strange and most of them were about places and people I've never known.  I'm a stranger in my own dreams.  I woke up too early again and was filled with dream remnants, they wouldn't go away,  the fear and agitation was starting to rise again, so I got some warm milk, swallowed down 500mg of taurine and prayed that it would keep working, like it has been.  It did and I managed to doze back into a kind of half sleep state, which wasn't pleasant, but not as bad as being fully awake and shaking in terror.

 

Memories from my childhood have been coming up, I'm remembering things, bad things, painful things, which I had forgotten.  With these memories are the emotions I wasn't allowed to have at the time.  Buried bits of 'me' clawing their way up to be acknowledged and released.

 

I'm living in two separate worlds at the same time, its the hardest thing I've ever had to do.

 

I'm in my room, doing my best to hang onto my sanity as intense emotions and memories are doing what they are doing, getting themselves released I supposed, they don't wait for an appropriate time or a weekly scheduled therapy session.  My daughter wanders into my room, with her laptop, chatting about something someone posted on facebook, wanting to show me the picture.  The picture and situation its related to causes a new wave of negative emotion to rise, I'm too sensitive, the whole world around me hurts.

 

Nausea rises up through me, caused by the shock from the collision of my two separate realities.

 

I need to be alone.  But when I'm alone for too long, I get frightened.

 

This is a process, a constantly changing landscape which I'm trying to navigate my way through.

 

The intense head pain on the right side, which began last Thursday has almost completely gone now.  I was having pain inside my ear, my right jaw, down into my neck and shoulder and it was causing daily headaches and migraines.  Part of my gum line kept swelling up and my teeth felt like they were moving, my bite went out of alignment.  It wasn't constant, for about 2 -3 days it was mostly constant, but then it would stop for several hours and then start again.  This has happened twice before, both times it only lasted a couple of days.  I have no idea if its related to withdrawal or something else.

 

Can't write any more at the moment, but I'm still here, taking care of myself the best I can, focusing on staying calm and living moment to moment until this wave passes.

 

 

[areyouthere]

Thinking of you. Hang on.

 

RU

[mattinsmom]

I've just managed to make my way to your page. It took me a couple of days to process all of it. WOW. I mean really, wow. 

I want to say something really great here but I'm a little lost in my own head today. Still, I wanted to at least say that I find hope in your story. I see bravery, persistence, and authenticity. I'm sorry that you are in a wave.

Thank you for being so honest and allowing yourself to feel/be vulnerable even when you were afraid and uncomfortable with sharing. 

[Petunia]

Once again, this morning has been difficult, but different.  Thankfully, the extreme crest of this current wave has passed.  I'm swallowing down 500mg of taurine as late as possible at night and another one as soon as I wake up in the morning.  Like lexhex wrote recently on the thread in symptoms, I'm certain this is helping.  Maybe the extreme emotions and constant triggering would have settled down by themselves eventually, I was starting to have small windows where I could go out and not be triggered.

 

But anyway, I don't know.  This seems to have moved me to the next phase in this process of recovery.  I'm starting to learn, step by step that I'm able to do more things, earlier in the day and not be overwhelmed with terror/dread and have to go running back to bed.  This morning I was able to go for a walk at 7:30am.  I hadn't planned it, but when I got up to bring in some washing, I noticed that it was getting hot outside already.  I thought that if I didn't go for a walk now, I wouldn't be able to. So I did it.

 

The taurine doesn't reduce my physical symptoms, so I was still dealing with inner shaking, some dizziness and temperature fluctuations, but I just took them with me for a walk.  Lately, each time I go for a walk, its a surprise not to get the waves of horror, I've been getting them so long, I expect them.  But once again I was walking along, feeling flat, neutral, occasional waves of physical discomfort when my temperature would suddenly rise or the sun shining in my eyes would blind me temporarily.

 

I sat on a bench for a while and it was ok.  A couple with 3 little dogs walked by.  One of the dogs came up to me and jumped up, it was so cute and full of energy, I spontaneously petted it and said something to it in that high pitched voice one often uses for talking to cute little animals, it got even more excited, then it ran off to follow its 'family'.  I realized that I had experienced a moment of happiness or joy, it had been real.  Then there had been a brief moment of sadness when the dog left.

 

I'm sitting here trying to figure out what my point is, because I know there is one.  There's nothing unusual about people feeling happiness and sadness in response to events, but for me, this was somehow different.  There was a kind of clarity of experience I've never felt before.  It was a bit unsettling.

 

Anyway, I came home, made some tea, ate something, which is also new for me, to be able to eat in the morning.  Then I was going to have a shower, but decided to have a bath instead.  A year ago, this wouldn't have been possible, but I managed to lay in my bath for at least half an hour and relax and enjoy it. This sounds like such an ordinary thing, but for me its huge, my whole life I've enjoyed relaxing in warm water, its been something which was guaranteed to calm me down and bring me peace and I was scared I had completely lost that resource.

 

Eventually this morning I found my way back here and was catching up with the latest journal posts.  One in particular has stuck with me because I'm concerned, but not sure what to write, there are no easy answers and I certainly don't have any.  I started thinking about my own diagnosis of ADHD and how I don't believe there is such a thing, but obviously there are some differences going on with some people in some situations.

 

Even if ADHD had been 'invented' when I was a child, I probably never would have got the diagnosis because my distraction and hyperactivity presented itself in a non-disruptive way.  I remember that if I was interested in what we were studying, then I picked it up very fast, I was like a sponge, soaking up every piece of information almost instantly.  I would have the whole text book read before most people had started it and I would be eager to make a start on the assignments.  Then I would sit in class in agony from boredom, listening to the teacher drone on and on, answering obvious questions, explaining over and over what I already understood.

 

If I hadn't been such a 'well behaved' and approval seeking child, I probably would have been running around creating havoc, but instead I sat very quietly, with increasing tension building, discretely picking at the skin on my arms, watching the clock, willing it to move faster so that I could get out of there and do something interesting.

 

I think that some people are just wired differently with the way they absorb and process information.  Some kinds of information seems to be like a magnet to my brain, I find it stimulating and inspiring and I seem to need a certain autonomy  in the way I learn this kind of material.  But other kinds of information I need to learn slower and need more support and structure.  I don't think this means I have an illness or even a condition.  I can imagine that if I wasn't such a well behaved child I would have caused some problems for my teachers and parents though.  Then I started to wonder about how my life might have turned out differently if I'd been medicated as a child.  Of course, ideally, I would have liked to have had an education program tailored specifically to my unique strengths and weaknesses so that I could excel at those things I was best suited for.  But in this non-ideal world, where such individual attention isn't possible for most people, isn't it better to do the next best thing.  If you can't alter the system to fit the brain, then alter the brain to fit the system.

 

Well, that seems to be what happens these days, it wouldn't be so bad if people actually knew what these brain altering drugs really did... long term.

 

Then I went back to reading through my thread where I left off the other day and came across this:

 

 

....... resonated with me on so many levels.

This part, in particular:

"Its like my brain has to constantly keep moving, going in search of something new to distract it or stimulate it.
 
But I can't find anything new.  With this unlimited internet thing right in front of me, I can't find anything new and interesting to distract me, well nothing which doesn't create surges of anxiety anyway.  But right now, right this second, I'm ok."

I wonder if this is what Dr. (from Pasadena?) called "mental akathisia"..?

 

.... I think this may be what lays at the core of some of what gets 'diagnosed' as illness, for the sole purpose of then being able to prescribe a medication (which may or may not 'help', in the short term at least).

 

Some people who are born with, fast acting, information absorbing, stimulation seeking brains do very well, without medication because they are lucky enough to find themselves in a nurturing, supportive environment which encourages and facilitates their 'differences'.  Some might manage ok for a while, but then have it fall apart when life circumstances change and no longer support in an ideal way.  Others struggle through life, trying to fit into systems which are a poor fit, right from the start.

 

I fall into that last category, I think many people do.  Its a huge problem and I've got no answers.

 

But the more I'm learning and healing, the clearer its becoming.  Its not me that was broken and inadequate, it was that I was born into an environment which didn't support and nurture me in the way I needed. 

 

But I'm broken now........  slowly bits and pieces are finding their way back together.

 

 

[lobster]

Keep hanging in there im pulling for you :-) im glad you feel like your over the worst part of this wave. Im wishing for calm seas and smaller waves for you. Your an inspiration and helping peolpe with out even knowing it!

[Barbarannamated]

Petu,

 

Just to clarify my comment above referrinv to Dr. Shipko (from Pasadena).... the "mental akathisia" he refers to is a symptom of withdrawal that he sees and, from my understanding of what he said, is one of the most difficult symptoms to deal with. I'm not sure where he spoke of that, but I didnt want to propagate any misunderstandings. He is not using that description to justify prescribing (although I'm sure there are many docs who do). He is one of the few docs who has spoken out about the severity of withdrawal.

 

Sorry for the tangent.

[Petunia]

I'm not sure if I misunderstood or not Barb, I probably did    My brain goes off on weird tangents a lot these days, I saw a connection between what gets called ADD symptoms, something both of us seem to be experiencing at the moment and the term 'mental akathisia'. I was wondering if the fact that we have both taken stimulant meds might have something to do with it.

 

Anyway, time for another little update.

 

Yesterday I had agitated depression all day. It lasted until I fell asleep about 8:30, I was exhausted.  Woke up several times through the night.  I woke up at 4:30am and didn't go back to sleep after that, but by comparison to most previous mornings it wasn't too bad.  I immediately took my taurine, got up and made some warm milk.  Then laid back down.  The temperature fluctuations started, and some inner vibrations and I was having to constantly turn the fan on and off, pull the covers up and then throw them off, open the window and then close it.  Finally I figured out what the problem was, I was too sensitive to any kind of stimulating change.  The breeze from the fan on my moist skin was making me too cold, so it would trigger a surge of heat and the cycle would continue.  In the end I closed the window, shut the fan off and kept still, eventually my body seemed to settle down.

 

The taurine and warm milk started to calm the thoughts and emotions which usually kick in soon after I wake up and this morning, it wasn't long before I started to feel a lot better than usual at that time of day.

 

This morning is turning out to be a window kind of day.  The surges of heat are mild, no inner shaking/reslessness/akathisia, I'm feeling relaxed, and the dread/terror feeling is just a background shadow. 

 

The TV is too loud in the other room and my neighbor across the street is outside doing noisy stuff and its not bothering me, I'm not feeling like jumping out of my skin.  I managed to nap for about half an hour, a little while ago, woke up with a surge of adrenaline, but it passed quickly.

 

Its been a very hot week, but its cooler today.

 

Its nice to be feeling calm and relaxed so early in the day, I'm scared to get up and do anything though, in case I trigger symptoms again.  There's nothing I have to do today, so maybe I will just relax and enjoy the peace while I have some.  I hope this is a genuine sign of recovery, I'd almost forgotten what it was like to feel 'safe' in the world during daylight hours.

[Petunia]

I woke up to a closed window this morning, it was disappointing, but expected.  I've spent about 6 hours feeling physically uncomfortable with the high cortisol effects, but seem to be settling down now at 11am, which is early, so things are still improving.

 

Yesterday afternoon I took my nice window for a walk to the store to buy a few things, it was pleasant... it really was.  I'm finding it hard to believe now as I'm writing about it.

[mattinsmom]

Just a fly-by. Know I'm thinking of you. 

Hang in there!

[alex]

My dear Petu, I KNOW how frustrating it can be!!

But that is the nature of the beast.

Hang in there;it gets better.Although very slowly I'm afraid.

You are  on your recovery path.

 

Hugs.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Hi Petu,

I'm thinking of you too, every day. What a blessing you had a break from your awful symptoms. I think you are turning a corner in your recovery.

[bubble]

always eagerly awaiting news from Down Under  

 

yes, when in window it's hard to imagine a wave and unfortunately, teh same works in the opposite ;( 

 

but the fact that tehy are happening and replacing each other is a very good sign as you would say

[mammaP]

I hope you bought something nice to remember the window by! I'm glad you had that window Petu,

and glad that you are starting to feel better earlier in the day. It's all progress  .

[Narcissus]

How you doing Petu?  I've had a very hard few days, hope you're faring better.

[Petunia]

thanks everyone, thanks for asking Nar,

I'm still here, not up to writing much at the moment though.  Maybe later