☼ Petunia: recovering from 13 years of antidepressant use

[btdt]

 In hindsight I understand that I was under the influence of a harmful drug interaction, which had completely changed my personality, for about a year, I was in a kind of drug induced mania without realizing it.

I should have this on a shirt... 

Where you are now... is where i am now been there for a long long time... with small breaks. 

 

I don't know what else to say about it as I have never been able to put it as well as you but I know it when I see it. 

I wish you peace. 

[ten0275]

Petunia, hey.

 

Only a moment here, but wanted you to know my thoughts are with you. Thank you for all your words, always. Here is to that next window you now absolutely know will come.

 

Hang in there,

 

Dave

[btdt]

Vit C 

I am reading this  or trying to... some things I have gathered about Vit C affect on the brain ... bbb is just a note for me to check another link I read so I don't forget

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649700/

 

Ascorbate (vitamin C) is a vital antioxidant molecule in the brain. However, it also has a number of other important functions, participating as a co-factor in several enzyme reactions including catecholamine synthesis, collagen production and regulation of HIF-1α. Ascorbate is transported into the brain and neurons via the Sodium-dependent Vitamin C Transporter-2 (SVCT2), which causes accumulation of ascorbate within cells against a concentration gradient. Dehydroascorbic acid, the oxidized form of ascorbate, is transported via glucose transporters of the GLUT family. Once in cells, it is rapidly reduced to ascorbate. The highest concentrations of ascorbate in the body are found in the brain and neuroendocrine tissues such as adrenal, although the brain is the most difficult organ to deplete of ascorbate. Combined with regional asymmetry in ascorbate distribution within different brain areas, these facts suggest an important role for ascorbate in the brain. Ascorbate is proposed as a neuromodulator of glutamatergic, dopaminergic, cholinergic and GABAergic transmission and related behaviors. Neurodegenerative diseases typically involve high levels of oxidative stress and thus ascorbate has been posited to have potential therapeutic roles against ischemic stroke, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and Huntingdon's disease.

 

Worth reading. 

 

Much more at the link.  It is on my mind that sodium ions channels are affected by Ad drugs.  I recall Scotty talking about taking Ryan around to docs to try figuring out how to deal with the fault in the sodium function ... gator aid and stocking I think helped I can't recall it really. 

Thought is vit C could get depleted if there is not enough sodium. again much more at the link...

 

Personally even with using 1000mg a day of buffered Vit C my digestion was completely disrupted I did not take any on the third day. 

[Petunia]

I am picturing your vit c as a stick to use to prop that window open!!!

 

I like that image Amy

 

Thank you offEFF and muddles, it does sound a lot like DP/DR, and that's probably exactly what it is.  I wonder who thinks up the labels for these unusual states of awareness, whoever gave this one its name, I doubt they ever experienced it themselves.

 

 

You aren't well yet, you're just getting some relief from some of the harsh physical symptoms you were having. You still have a lot of reweaving of your brain to do. .... your brain regrowing itself and figuring out how to do that, and part of it is what anybody who goes through tremendous life-transforming trauma goes through--it completely changes how you relate to the world. ... but I think down the road is a place you are going to be happy to be living in. Eventually.

 

 I echo Rhi's thoughts that this is part of healing and getting back to homeostasis. Reading it reminded me of how I was for years with effexor, ....it is when there is someone to look after and focus on but when all you have is what is going on inside you it is so hard. 

 

Even though its difficult to still be in this window/wave pattern, its such a relief to read that you both think this is still part of the recovery process and recognize it in your own experiences.  I watch, read and listen to a lot of eastern spiritual material, mostly paths which focus on the true nature of mind, ego and reality.  The descriptions of some the states of consciousness, which people are trying to attain, sound similar, in some ways to DP/DR and other states which have been labeled as illness by western medicine.  This scares and confuses me at times because I'm thinking, what if I've spontaneously reached one of these stages of consciousness, and now I can't get back.  This does actually happen sometimes.  I read a book called "Collision with the Infinite" by Suzanne Segal in which a woman suddenly experienced an enduring change in perception while stepping onto a bus.  It took a long time, but she eventually learned the truth about what had happened and became a spiritual teacher, but she lived with a feeling of fear and terror for a long time.  That link contains an excerpt from the book which describes her experience. I wouldn't mind if this is actually some kind of enduring change of perception as part of spiritual growth, I could probably get used to it eventually, but not the fear and confusion that comes from not knowing what's going on.  I think that all kinds of experience, even difficult ones can eventually be adjusted to as long as there is a meaningful context to wrap them in. For some reason, I'm still struggling with understanding what's happening. Understanding, believing, knowing, I don't have them. Maybe its because I had such an insecure sense of myself to start with and never developed the ability to trust reality from early on...or maybe this is just the nature of recovery from having your brain scrambled.

 

Something I've noticed is that the actual experience of DP/DR, isn't in itself a negative or unpleasant thing, its just different from the ordinary state of awareness. The problem comes from fear and resistance which seems to be triggered by the feeling of unfamiliarity. Its different from what I'm used to, so something in me judges it as wrong and then I freak out, but in reality, its probably not harmful at all, just a different way of perceiving reality. I don't know, maybe even a more realistic way of perceiving reality. I'm not actually 'in' my body, but have been conditioned from birth to believe I am. I've often had a sense that I expand beyond the limitations of my body and that its really just a place holder and a tool for functioning in the world, but now that seems to be my actual experience. The part of me which now most clearly feels like 'me', is like just empty awareness, but there's like a constant pressure pulling it away from physical reality,which includes my body and the physical world around me. All of my 'symptoms', all the responses and reactions in this body, which I'm still somehow connected to, are experienced like enormous shock waves, dragging me back to another level of reality where I don't want to be. Its the worst in the morning because in sleep, I've been out of my body and content for an extended period and the shock of being forced back into this unfamiliar vessel is awful.

 

What was it you wrote Rhi?  Reweaving of my brain.... and maybe rewiring of my nervous system. Life is desperately trying to reestablish some kind of livable compatibility between energy and matter, since being driven into chaos by years of poisoning of the body.

 

I recently listened to something, can't remember exactly what it was, but a pharmacologist was saying that pharmacology is basically the study of how to safely use poisons.

 

 

Here is to that next window you now absolutely know will come.

 

 

Thank you for the reminder Dave... for reminding me that I know it will come, because actually I don't. That seems to be just another of the cruel features of the non-window, it traps you blindly in the present reality of eternal waveness, which is where I was firmly planted yesterday when I wrote my last post.  Today is a little different, again and thankfully (thank you universal forces of goodness), my sustained release vitC arrived about an hour ago, the tracking info said I wasn't going to get it until next Wednesday. I seem to be out of the really bad wave already. Not back in a window, but not bad wave state.

 

My new package from iHerb arrived 10 minutes after I had swallowed down a 1000mg instant release.  I opened up the box and was overwhelmed trying to make a decision about what to do next.  I had ordered 8 bottles of Doctor's Best 500mg sustained release, each bottle only contains 60 tabs, so I figured I would go through them pretty fast if I'm taking 4 - 6 tabs at a time.  I've also got Natural Factors 1000mg time release (180 tabs) and Country Life1000mg with rose hips time release (250 tabs).

 

The blurb on the Doctor's Best ones sounded most impressive, lots of jargon and pseudo-sciencey stuff, which I figured was most likely pretty meaningless, but anyway, so I took 4 of those, to total 2000mg.  So in all, I recently took 1000mg instant and 2000mg slow release and so far I feel ok.  I wont really know if there's a difference until early tomorrow morning, I've still been waking up early with cortisol rushes as the instant release wears out, every 2 hours, so in reality, its still been quite unpleasant, like being on a cortisol roller coaster rather than being strapped into a fixed seat in a chamber of horrors.

 

Thank you for the article BT, I've read through it once, I probably need to do that about 10 more times in order to understand what it actually means. After one reading I'm getting the impression that it means vitamin C might be helping in some way

 

I'm sorry that vitamin C effects your digestion, perhaps you would be able to tolerate one of the non ascorbic acid forms of it.  While I was researching the different types I came across Camu Camu - natural vitamin C and Liposomal Vitamin C, which is supposed to be easier on the digestive system and better absorbed.  I would try one of these if high doses of ascorbic acid effected my stomach.  Luckily, so far, I haven't had any stomach problems with it.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Now I want to write about what I think may have caused my most recent wave, I don't think it was the tai chi, although going to the class was difficult while being in a wave.

 

Over the past couple of weeks I've basically been forced, by my father to deal with something I wasn't ready to deal with.  All the stock from my business and some of my daughter's and my personal belonging have been stored in my parents spare room and unused enclosed patio since we moved out of our home, after my divorce was finalized.

 

Anyway, to make a long chapter shorter, a few weeks ago, my dad suddenly decided he wanted to get rid of all our stuff.  There is nowhere to put it where we are living now, and I haven't been well enough to sort through it all and deal with it.  I've also not been able to make any decisions about the future of my business. But I did want to be able to deal with it myself, when I was well enough. Because of the nature of my business, some of my stock had lost value, but other things not, it needed to be sorted.... but I needed more time in order to handle it.  Up until recently, I was under the impression that my parents were fine with our belongings being stored where they were. But for some reason, he suddenly wanted all of our stuff out of there.

 

I was hoping that my dad would quickly lose the bee out of his bonnet and find something else to worry about, for now.  But he didn't, so, feeling like I had no other option, because after all, its my parents house and if they want their space back, then that's their right.  I told my dad to rent a dumpster, which I would pay for, and throw everything out. This all started about 3 - 4 weeks ago and in the process its been causing more and more emotional stress. Its also been triggering a lot of old emotional wounds from my past.

 

I probably would have been better off if my father had done what I told him to do, and had just thrown everything out.  But he found someone who ran weekend market stalls who was interested in buying everything for a lump sum.  So then he was pushing me to go over and tell him how much everything was worth. When I didn't respond to his email right away, he started harassing my daughter. I should have just ignored him, but when someone starts messing with my daughter.... well that pushes my buttons, maybe he knows that. Anyway, I got dragged into it, went over there and did what he wanted. I started sorting through a whole lot of stuff I wasn't ready to deal with. The emotions of trying to come to terms with the last 7 years of my life and everything which has happened and what I've lost were all being dragged up too fast. I was trying to find things with some value, to save them.  But I was getting distracted by strange, warped memories of things I had forgotten.  It was like experiencing someone else's memories.  All this was clashing up against the cognitive distortions caused by the last several years of withdrawal. This me I was encountering in these boxes no longer existed, and yet, here she was. I kept encountering items I had no memory of and my sense of reality was getting hit over and over again as I struggled to remember the circumstances surrounding the item and how I came to have it.  As I was seeing old things which belonged to my daughter, I was getting hit with waves of pain and sadness as I realized just how disconnected I had been from my life back then, it felt like I had lost years of our life together and would never be able to get them back.  In reality, it might not actually have been like that, but my reality now feels that way, its like the drugs have wiped out my emotional memories and seeing reminders of the past and not being able to connect with my memories in an emotional way was like I had actually lost my daughter.    My mind was getting more and more chaotic, I didn't know what to do from one moment to the next and the whole time my dad was right there picking up my stuff telling me that someone would probably pay a few dollars for this or five dollars for that.  I found myself going into a kind of warped self preservation survival mode, some of my possessions were becoming like symbols of my soul and taking on mythical values, I felt like with each thing I 'rescued' was like rescuing a piece of myself, like trying to grab back some sense of control over something which had been stolen from me.

 

Before I got there, I was quite happy to have it all put in a dumpster without me having seen any of it again.  But once I was there, it was triggering all kinds of emotions I didn't want to be feeling.  I eventually left, after having made sure my daughters awards, trophies and favorite things were in their own do not touch zone, and I had 'saved' a few symbolic pieces of my own soul.  I told him I didn't have any idea how much it was all worth and to get what ever he could for it. It seemed ridiculous to put a figure on it seeing as I had already told him to throw it all away. He wanted his room back, that seemed to be the bottom line, my stuff was standing in the way of what he wanted and I couldn't fix it so I really didn't feel like I had a leg to stand on.

 

While I was there, my mind and emotions were just a jumble of confusion, I didn't know what was going on.  But now, that I've had some time to process it, I realize it was triggering some painful memories from my early childhood.  The time when I was 4 and my parents gave my dog away, without any concern for how it would effect me. But mostly it triggered memories from the time when we moved from the UK to Australia and I had previously lost all my stuff because of decisions made by my parents without concern for my feelings.  There had been no support or understanding then either. I remember being told that I could chose two of my toys to bring with me, that was it. I was in complete shock and devastated. My dolls and toys were like my own little family, I was emotionally connected to them, they were like my children. I remember feeling terribly upset and couldn't believe that I was being forced to make this decision. I remember trying to convince my mother to reconsider, to let me bring more, but she was cold and heartless, they both were. There was never any consideration for how things effected me and my sister on an emotional level.  I didn't have the capacity to make a decision like that, I can't even remember what I chose to bring. I think the whole experience of being moved across the world like some kind of inanimate object caused me so much shock, I blocked most of it out. The worst part about it was that my father spent thousands having his own prized possession, a classic car, shipped across the world, only to let it sit for years in a shed gathering dust until he eventually sold it for a fraction of what it would have been worth if he sold it in the UK before we left. Having my stuff given away now and being helpless to do anything about it, again, as an adult was like a cruel repetition of history.

 

I wish that one visit to their house to sort out boxes would have been the end of it.  But it wasn't.  My dad found someone who was willing to give him some money for all my stuff, so then I had to go back and sort through them again to take out any personal items or papers I didn't want this stranger to have.

 

As I'm writing about it, I'm realizing that I'm not able to describe the weirdness of the whole situation. Nothing about it really makes sense to me. I still don't know the real reason my father suddenly wanted to get rid of our stuff. When I asked him why, he started talking about how they used to have parties in their patio, which actually wasn't true.  The roof leaks in places and is falling down, the carpet needs replacing, its actually not really even a livable space any more, but he's not going to fix it up, he just 'wants it back'. A few months ago he was talking about moving my things out of the spare room in case my sister wanted to stay there for a while, but she never wanted to, that was his idea and when she said no, it changed to him wanting to stay in there. Its was like he was making up reasons as he went along.  Maybe he doesn't even know why he wants my stuff gone, its just some sudden urge that's got into his head and stuck there, that's what mum thinks, she said he's probably bored and its like a project for him.

 

He made it clear that he was going to give me the money he got for my stuff, but the way he 'announced' this fact was weird, like as if it was the the honorable thing to do and he's such an honorable person.  Writing that seems silly and probably doesn't make a lot of sense to most people, but for anyone who has been in any kind of relationship with this kind of personality, you will know exactly what I mean, everything somehow gets turned into being about them and how great they are, even if what they are doing is common, accepted normal human behavior, when they do it, its somehow special and means more.  He even told me that I should be grateful because he was doing me a favor. In some ways, I guess he was, if I was a business associate or  casual acquaintance, then yes, it was a nice thing he was doing. Storing my stuff in his house for free and then selling it for me to get some money back from my investment. But I'm his daughter, aren't father's supposed to help their daughters if they can.  Isn't it some kind of normal human parental instinct to want to help, protect and care for your offspring if you are capable, especially if they get sick or encounter misfortune? But he never wanted children in the first place, so maybe that's only the way it is for wanted children.

 

I get it now, I've slowly been reading through the book I ordered, about narcissistic families, its subtle, you often can't see it from the outside and from the inside, it feels completely normal, but its soul destroying and leaves children painfully damaged and unprepared for living successful lives out in the adult world, often without having a clue why.

 

There's one analogy which has been stuck firmly in my head ever since I read it.  It talks about a pretty little well at the bottom of the garden in a family home. At first the well delivers pure, refreshing, healthy water and the children learn from the parents how to lower the bucket down into the well and draw up the good, clean water. But one day something happens and the well gets poisoned. The child draws up some water to drink and gets sick, but doesn't understand what's wrong. The adult child eventually gets into therapy and learns about dysfunctional families and how they have been effected by this dynamic and the real reasons for their own problems. Often, it seems like now the cause of the difficulty is  uncovered, everything will be ok, that understanding it fixes it. But it doesn't.  The adult child then thinks that drinking from the well will be ok if they go and buy a new bucket, but its not, the water is still poison. So next time they drink from it using their own special mug, still poison. Then they try an expensive crystal glass.... still poison, next they try sipping it through a straw. Poison is poison, no matter how carefully you drink it.

 

Its been a difficult couple of weeks, in spite of the vitamin C.  I've done more letting go and facing reality than I was ready for, but I've survived.

 

I was going to finish here, but I just remembered something I used to do as a young child, before I was dragged from the UK to Australia. I would get a shoe box and fill it full of little 'treasures', I can't really describe what I mean by treasures, but just things which seemed unique and special to me at the time. I would put on the lid, tape it up and put a date on it and tell myself not to open the box until some specified time in the future, usually at least a year.  Then I would hide the box under my bed. When the time came to open the box, I would be filled with surprise and happiness at seeing all the things I'd hidden away and forgotten, it would be fun and exciting having the memories suddenly come back, like as if it was solidifying a connection in time with myself then, with a me from before. It strengthened my emotional stability and helped to give me an enduring sense of myself over time through being able to recreate emotional connections to things from the past which I had forgotten. But this recent experience of encountering treasures that have been hidden away has had the exact opposite effect. Antidepressants and withdrawal cause paradoxical effects in so many unexpected ways

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Meimeiquest]

Wow, just wow. I don't think you are over-reacting at all. This is all profoundly sad.

[direstraits]

I just have to respond to this ; I see so much of my life here,too-so,so sorry Petunia

 

narcissists shouldn't have kids,so much pain inflicted that never heals I believe

 

no,I don't believe everyone has "normal parental instinct" ; my parents didn't;I remember my father saying"I wasn't cut out for this" and"I should have been a hermit" ;that stuff doesn't leave you-it hurts forever

I don't think I ever felt really loved-probably why I got pregnant at17-why I ended up on ADs

 

I can't express myself like you do,so effectively tbh I can't even type but just want you to know I feel your pain and hope we can all overcome what ever life has dealt us eventually-my heart goes out to you xoxo

[brassmonkey]

I could tell you many stories about my father, but you already know them. This is all a part of the transformation of self that you and I are going through.  I try to consider such things as breaking with a past that no longer controls me and gaining the freedom to move forward unfettered.  Objects are just things that will eventually fall apart, the true memories and dreams  are locked inside of you and will last the rest of your life, and provide a base for further inner growth and new directions in which to travel.

 

(((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))

[Petunia]

As per AliG's suggestion, a warning, this is not a good update.

 

Thank you for the support and validation, I'm sorry direstraits and brass that you have experienced similar. I sort of regretted writing what I did in my last post, the guilt and shame runs deep and writing about it dug up even more, then I felt vulnerable and over exposed and just wanted to run away and hide in a hole in the ground somewhere, fearing more judgement, condemnation and criticism. I know that's ridiculous, but its how I've been programmed. So thank you for being gentle.

 

The akathisia was back this morning, after sleeping through the entire night with the help of the sustained C, I woke up feeling worse than I have in a long time. A few mild adreneline surges around 6am, then the aka was back along with dread, terror and almost psychotic thoughts as my mind tried to figure out what was going on, again. As the day progressed those symptoms warped into wave after wave of neuro-emotions which didn't let up until about half an hour ago.

 

Its like pandoras box of old repressed nasty emotions got opened up today and they've been pouring out non-stop taking me back on a painful journey through a miserable past, making stops at all the horrible hot spots along the way.

 

My daughter getting ready to go out this evening was triggering memories from my early childhood when my parents would get ready to go out. The nausea and fear was flooding through me now, just like it used to back then. The smell of my daughters perfume was reminding me of how my mother would smell, as she got ready. The sounds from the bathroom took me back to the mounting anxiety I used to feel as a helpless child about to be left, again, in the hands of an abusive stranger. I don't have clear memories, I've blocked a lot of them out, but the emotions are real...the terror and helplessness.

 

I don't know if these are neuro-emotions or my own repressed trauma getting triggered again.

 

Needless to say I'm really p****d off and feel like throwing all my new bottles of miracle cure vitamin c out the window, and me along with them.

 

But I will keep taking it, because its definitely helping with one annoying symptom, unfortunately there are plenty of others quite happy to step up and take its place.

 

I'm guessing this wave has been caused by a combination of things and has been building up all week. I stupidly ate some grainwave chips last night, I wasn't thinking, they have a lot of MSG, I'm sure that didn't help.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Petunia
added note

[AliG]

  Oooh. That is rough. Maybe you should have put a warning.    I hope you feel better , soon.  

[Muddles]

Withdrawal certainly brings the nastiness of our past. I didn't even realise the nastiness till withdrawal. I'm not even quite sure they were that bad - they are just magnified by 1000! Im sorry you have had a bad week. I sure think you have been triggered - it certainly doesn't take much.

 

I hope this is short lived. Take care.

[btdt]

Is discombobulation a word I guess it is. 

 

I know this too.. Petu

 

I moved from a 4 br house large lot in ground pool... to a room. A lot of my stuff... was given away some to people some to junk stores... some to storage... all in a flurry... 

When the money ran out things from storage were brought here to where there was no room and I had to go thru this process your talking of.it was very much like this. 

 

" strange, warped memories of things I had forgotten.  It was like experiencing someone else's memories.  All this was clashing up against the cognitive distortions caused by the last several years of withdrawal. This me I was encountering in these boxes no longer existed, and yet, here she was. I kept encountering items I had no memory of and my sense of reality was getting hit over and over again as I struggled to remember the circumstances surrounding the item and how I came to have it."

 

I hit solidly up against this too... 

It set me back but I was not well to start with. Some part of me identifies with the stuff as my life as I spent my life working to get the stuff I was no longer well enough to defend house or keep.  

 

I was at a loss at the time as I did not understand withdrawal or how our minds are effected by these drugs... I don't want to scare anybody but how on earth could anyone experience this and not think there is some sort of damage in the brain. 

 

We both had the same experience to a similar situation this is not normal.  I know your emotional issues with moving across the world and your father relationship are mixed in there too... but there was none of that for me .. father died when I was 2 years old... not a mover.  Still I had the same expereince in going thru my stuff... 

 

What we have in common is withdrawal from ADs ... there is the common thread. 

 

I am always thankful for your expressive abilities without it I would have less of a voice as I feel muted... thank you for this. 

 

 

 

 

 

I took tried to rationalize how I got to where I was... 

[btdt]

We know you taking plenty Vit C... it is not sticking as the symptoms come back... may be an issue with this.

" Ascorbate is transported into the brain and neurons via the Sodium-dependent Vitamin C Transporter-2 (SVCT2)," 

or we know Ads mess with our guts.. maybe it is not being absorbed well. 

 

Absorption and Bioavailability

Transport of vitamin C is a saturable and dose dependent process that occurs by active transport. At the intestine and cells AA is oxidized to DHAA, which is more quickly transported across the cell membrane. Once inside the tissue or intestinal epithelium, the vitamin is reduced back to AA. | The degree of intestinal absorption decreases as intake of AA increases. Intakes of 1 to 1.5 grams results in 50% absorption, but at intakes over 12 grams, only 16% of the vitamin is absorbed. In contrast, an intake of less than 20 mg, has a 98% absorption rate (13). Absorption of vitamin C is greater when several individual doses of vitamin C, in quantities less than one gram, are taken throughout the day rather than one megadose (17). Eighty to ninety-five percent of the vitamin C found in foods is absorbed (13). Furthermore, the bioavailability of synthetic and "natural" forms of the vitamin differ very little despite the claims made by manufacturers (13,17). Vitamin C absorption can be impaired by a number of factors. A single large dose saturates the enzyme kinetics for vitamin C, leading to excess AA in the intestinal lumen, which causes numerous gastrointestinal problems. Pectin and zinc also inhibit AA absorption, but this mechanism is not well understood. A high iron concentration in the gastrointestinal tract may cause oxidative destruction and in turn impair uptake (13)."

" Carnitine synthesis prefer to use vitamin C as the reducing agent (13). Carnitine facilitates the beta-oxidation of fat, through its role transporting long chain fatty acids from the cytoplasm into the mitochondrial matrix of cardiac and skeletal muscle. High concentrations of AA are found in adrenal and brain tissue where they are fairly resistant to AA depletion. Vitamin C is directly involved in the enzyme activity of two copper dependent mono-oxygenases, which are important in the formation of norepinephrine and serotonin (13,17). Furthermore, AA regulates the activity of some neurons within the brain. Some of these functions include neurotransmitter membrane receptor synthesis, and neurotransmitter dynamics. Indirectly, AA plays important regulatory roles throughout the entire body due to its involvement in the synthesis of hormones, hormone-releasing factors, and neurotransmitters (13). Animal models have also shown that AA is an important factor in development of the nervous system, specifically in the maturation of glial cells and myelin (17) Vitamin C is important to a host of numerous other functions within the body."

 

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Antioxidants/VitaminC.html

 

 

"Some of these functions include neurotransmitter membrane receptor synthesis, and neurotransmitter dynamics"

 

Vitamin C, as ascorbic acid, participates in the enzyme activity of two copper-dependent mono-oxygenases that are important in the synthesis of norepinephrine and serotonin. In addition, vitamin C regulates the activity of some neurons within the brain that affect neurotransmitter membrane receptor synthesis and neurotransmitter dynamics.[4]

http://www.360medicine.com/pdf/HappyCamper.pdf

 

You can boost your acetylcholine levels by taking supplements of phosphatidyl choline, which is also the form of choline most important to the structure of your neural membranes. Vitamin C and B5 are needed for your brain to synthesize acetylcholine, in the presence of choline acetyltransferase, a key brain enzyme.

http://learn.fi.edu/learn/brain/proteins.html

Maybe it is not more C but a bit of B5 ... 

 

In addition to various amino acids, several B vitamins, including thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate, and vitamin B12, are needed as cofactors for the synthesis of neurotransmitters. Moreover, vitamin C is required for synthesis of norepinephrine(3), and the mineral zinc is important for proper function of GABA, aspartate, and norepinephrine (12). Further, choline is aprecursor for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (13).

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/micronutrients-health/cognitive-function

 

There sure is a lot to this once we start looking. 

[alex]

My thoughts are with you dear Petu,

I wish I was half as strong as you are...

Hang in there!!

I am too...

[btdt]

Yet again I see it this deep state of negativity where we hold ourselves hostage and every bad thing that every happened comes up and hurts worse than it ever did.  

 

I truly believe this is a withdrawal stage.  We should have a thread with this title as it is apparent a lot of people hit it. Apparent to me if not to anyone else.  

[Petunia]

...so its been about 8 days since I last posted here. A few days ago, probably 5, I typed out an update, quite a positive one really, but then suddenly had second thoughts and didn't press the post button. At the time, I was puzzled about my reluctance to share my positive update, but eventually I figured out why, its more emotional 'baggage' related to my childhood, which I really don't want to go into now.

 

This update is going to be about the supplements I'm now taking, the recent changes and how I'm feeling now.

 

I'm now in a fairly stable routine with Vitamin C supplementation. I'm mostly taking the Natural Factors brand, 1000mg time release. I take 2 at a time starting from around midnight, then when I wake up in the morning which is anywhere from 6am to 7:30, then again at 8am, then 10am. So that's 8000mg total. I was taking more, but this seems to be what I need, when I went higher, I started to get some of the bowel tolerance issues.

 

I'm also taking one natural vitamin c (camu camu) 800mg with dinner and half a teaspoon of real camu camu powder in a smoothie, which I've been having once a day. I was surprised to see the camu camu power in my local organic food store, because according to the iHerb site, camu camu is a restricted product here and generally will not ship anything that has it in. Although I did find one product with it in that didn't yet have the restriction, so I ordered it, and was surprised that it arrived. I'm actually quite happy with the results from the 'unnatural' ascorbic acid though.

 

After about a week of the high dose C, I started to feel somehow different, like as if my body was changing, calming down and I got the idea that I may be able to tolerate things which I was previously too sensitive for, so I've slowly been trying a few things I've wanted to add. This is what I've successfully added back with no permanent increase in symptoms:

 

Thorne brand basic nutrients #3 without copper and iron. This contains A, C, D, E, all the Bs in their bio-available forms, Folate, Biotin, and a few other ingredients common in a multi. I'm only taking one sixth of the recommended dose. One capsule in the morning.

 

One very low dose omega 3 capsule and quarter of a teaspoon of cod liver oil, which also goes in the smoothie.

 

A daily smoothie made with organic almond milk and organic pea based protein (not whey). I add 2 -3 leaves of curly kale, a stick of celery, a few nuts and seeds, the camu camu powder and that's about it I think. The protein powder is sweetened with stevia, on the label it claims to be a wholefood blend of bio-fermented, live, clean superfoods and so far I've had no bad reaction to it.

 

I'm now taking magnesium glycinate, 200mg at night with dinner, I was taking citrate. I used to be able to take more magnesium, but when I go any higher than that now I get diarrhea, so I must have built my levels back up.

 

500mg Taurine with dinner.

 

I've had mixed thoughts about taking Black Cohosh ever since I started taking it, I was hoping it was helping with night sweats and hot flashes, so I kept taking it. But as the vitamin C has been building up and I've been stabilizing on it, the night sweats and hot flashes have been steadily decreasing. So I stopped taking the Black Cohosh last night (again), will see what happens.

 

So here's the current list

 

Vitamin C, (ascorbic acid) 8000mg (time release taken at regular intervals through the day)

Camu Camu 1200mg approx

Magnesium Glycinate 200mg

Taurine 500mg

Omega 3 EPA/DHA 300mg

Cod Liver Oil, quarter tspn

Garlic/Ginger capsule

 

Symptom improvement update:

 

I'm sleeping even better, deeper, good dreams hardly waking up at all through the night any more and when I do its very brief and I fall back to sleep almost instantly.

 

No night sweats for about a week now and when I get a hot flash its minor and lasts only seconds. Of course I've still got some temperature dysregulation going on, during the day, I'm still sensitive to sudden changes and sometimes after eating I'll feel hotter, I sometimes suddenly get sweaty for no apparent reason, still, or I react to minor exertion with major response. I'm still over reacting to cooler temperatures in the morning so I expect all this is still going to take more time.

 

Morning adreneline rushes have decreased down to about 20% of what they were. On some mornings even lower, but I've still been having the occasional big surge on some mornings, which continue to cause a shock and feel very traumatic, like they are 'setting me back', but in reality, this symptom is definitely going away. Secondary fear of the symptoms themselves is still a big problem, but will probably decrease in time as well.

 

Morning fear/dread/terror has decreased to about 15% of what it was.

Weird morning thoughts/images are down to about 10%

DP/DR have also decreased, although I can't put a percentage on it because it changes in response to what I do and I really haven't been doing much.

 

My mood has improved, especially earlier in the day, much less feelings of depression, hopelessness and despair. I'm still very unmotivated, but I don't seem to care as much. The anhedonia has lifted a bit too, I'm enjoying food more than what I was and I've been really enjoying some of the history related youtube videos I've been watching lately. Its been a long time since I've actually felt anticipation and enjoyment, but I've had some of those come back this week.

 

In general I would say that the huge list of weird, complex and indescribable symptoms, which I don't want to comment on individually have all got significantly better over the last 3 weeks, apart from the wave which I think was caused by increased stress from trying to sort through boxes and having to deal with my parent/s.  Once that particular situation was resolved, I quickly recovered from that setback.

 

I wish I could describe this better, from the outside, nothing looks different, in some ways, it might seem like I've got worse, because I've become even more inactive than I already was, but I feel better, my body doesn't feel as toxic or stressed or in constant fight/flight/freeze any more. I'm more physically relaxed and consequently, hope is starting to come back and that's flowing on to my thoughts and attitudes. But I'm still easily triggered, vulnerable to stress and if anything, I'm now being even more self protective than I was. Physically I'm getting better, but now I've had this glimmer of hope and a taste of possibly being able to do something to have an impact on recovery, for the first time, and so I've become nervous about accidentally sabotaging myself.

 

I've reached a new level of acceptance and I think this may have been facilitated by recovering enough on a physical level to be able to have that cognitive capacity back, this is what it feels like. My body is now out of constant fight/flight/survival mode and so there's a little bit of energy available at times for cognitive processing which is actually starting to stick, from day to day. Instead of waking up every morning, feeling like I have to start all over again figuring how to survive and keep going, now I feel like I'm actually building on my gains from previous efforts... this is new. The learning/memory part of my brain seems to be coming back online. Ever since withdrawal started, its been like groundhog day everyday, having to start over each morning from scratch, this sense of loosing everything overnight, is difficult to explain if you haven't experienced it, but that's what it was like. It seems to be different now.

 

I've got more to write, but have to do something else now..... to be continued.....

 

.... continuing on a bit later...

 

A few days ago I started exploring this site:

 

http://www.drlam.com/index.php

 

After lots of reading and watching videos I've come to the conclusion that I have stage 3 adrenal fatigue, most likely caused by years of stress, medications to suppress symptoms rather than address them and then the subsequent chaos of withdrawal. The sensitivities of protracted withdrawal sound identical to the sensitivities to drugs and supplements and paradoxical reactions which are found with later stage AF.

 

Its been a pleasant surprise to learn that one of the supplements used to treat AFS is high dose vitamin C, along with low dose DHEA, which is something that I've already ordered and hopefully should receive this week, if customs don't confiscate it, I've still got my fingers crossed.

 

Another validating thing I learned is that in later stage AF, exercise can be a problem, often making symptoms worse, and this has been my experience. A suggestion I read was that perhaps 5 - 10 minutes of gentle walking every other day may be enough if you have later stage AF, this sounds like something I could reasonably manage, it actually sounds like a goal I could achieve, so far, any exercise goals I've set for myself have failed, because I've set them too high, like expecting myself to be able to walk for half an hour every day, even doing something lighter than that every day has been too much and I've found it demoralizing and have been going through these stages of trying, failing and then completely giving up doing anything.

 

What's been most depressing is that when my DP/DR decreased enough so that I could comfortably leave the house to walk, I thought I would be able to get into a regular walking routine, but instead, I found that if I did much more than a gentle ten minute stroll, I would crash the next day and I was often finding that if I tried to increase my pace, I would start getting random body pain or dizziness or the DP/DR would start to come back, it was all so disappointing. I want to get back to the gym, do hour long high impact classes and be able to walk up and down hills, but it was starting to seem like my life was over and I was never going to get my fitness back.

 

What I like about this site and doctor is that there isn't a one size fits all approach, he realizes that every person and situation is unique and each program needs to be tailored to fit each person and needs to change as recovery progresses. He also doesn't offer any quick fixes. This approach mirrors what I've learned here and also reflects what I've learned from Monica Cassini and the Beyond Meds site. Protracted withdrawal is complex syndrome effecting multiple body systems, constantly changing and manifesting differently in each person. I'm thinking of buying the book, so then I can explore some of the treatment suggestions in more detail. But its expensive. But there's a lot of free information on the site and I'm still only part way through.

 

They also sell supplements, formulas and packages, some of them obviously overpriced, along with lots of other treatment options and phone counseling.  It would be nice to have some kind of personalized program and support from something which actually might help. I told my daughter what I was looking at and that according to the site I have stage 3 Adrenal Fatigue Syndrome. She immediately seemed relieved and happy, saying "Oh, that makes more sense than what you have been saying so far, now I've got something easy to tell people when they ask what's wrong with you"  *sigh*.... no really, I'm sure half of the problem with being sick with PAWS is that its just so unbelievable, unrecognized and doesn't make much sense to most people. When it goes on for years, and symptoms start effecting so many different aspects of your body and health, what are we supposed to say, where do we go for help, just to get some recognition and validation is a relief.

 

I know I'm not writing anything new here and I also feel like I bit of a traitor for exploring another syndrome, but there are so many similarities its hard not to see the connection.

 

Anyway, if anyone has any experience with Dr. Lam and his clinic and treatments, or comments, I would be interested in hearing about it.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Petunia
added more

[Purplestars22]

I am so happy for your improvements.

[WinningThrough]

So glad things are changing for you in a good way, Petunia. Really glad :-)

[LoveandLight]

I feel like we should be having a party for all the improvements you've noticed! I wish we could all meet and celebrate how far you've come..

 

Hugs xxxx

[Muddles]

Good to hear Petu. I always pray your updates are good ones before opening them.

[AliG]

This is such good news.  Hoping for continued recovery. 

[Wildflower0214]

Hey there Petunia,

 

I'm happy to hear of all of your improvements. I just wanted to comment on the DHEA. I have adrenal fatigue, as does my mother. I had my cortisol levels checked and they were very very low.

 

DHEA can be really really activating. Also, if you have ever had anything like PCOS or any kind of hormonal issue, you may want to avoid it.

 

It is also not recommended for anyone who has a family history of breast, ovarian, or uterine cancer as it can increase the risk of developing these cancers.

 

Just a word of caution.

 

I hope everything works out well for you and you continue to improve.

 

If you look up Dr. Lam, he is a doctor who has done a ton of research in adrenal fatigue. And, it's worth a read.

[bubble]

Petunia, I had to laught at your guilty conscience for flirting with other syndromes and betraying our SSRI withdrawal We all seem to be very faithful to it....

 

I totally relate with connections and similarities you have noticed. Constant and dreadful fatigue has been my most predominant symptome for years even when everything else is more tolerable. But one of my symptoms (or just being me?) is just that I simply don't have the patience to be regular with supplements nor any other regimes for that matter ;(

(It's tempting to ascribe personal traits one doesn't like to withdrawal symptoms especialyl when WD has become one's second (or first) nature...)

 

So I admire the way you are doing it. You convey the gist of the reaserch in such a way that I can process it (and even start applying it). I had to go on a business trip and travel and this disrupted my latest routine with the Vitamin C. I was also probably influenced by how you decribed your feelings after most of the symptoms withdrew only to be replaced by some new and even more scarry. It seems it was "just" a wave triggered by sorting through your things. I need to be particularly stable to endeavour things like that.

 

But even being cautious as we are it seems things are indeed getting better  

 

hugs

[btdt]

on this topic 

"conscience for flirting with other syndromes"

There are so many different symptoms with this it is hard to believe it is all just from not taking a pill anymore or from ever taking a pill as so man of our systems are affected. As difficult as it is to get our heads around there are others out there having similar effects with other drugs... a post I made today in Muddles thread had this in it

not just the Floxed and Psych drugs there is also the hair growing drug...it starts with an F... can't recall the word 

now I am guilty with you for seeking outside the realm. I am not beating myself up as I have passed that stage in my wd healing for now at least does it return? I sure hope not. 

peace Petu

[Petunia]

*Trigger warning for anyone afraid of slow recovery/protracted withdrawal*

 

Its been 2 years since my first post here. I'm in the process of reading through my own thread and I just read something Narcissus posted just over a year ago:

 

Hey Petu, on my phone so I can't respond at length. Here is a no nonsense passage on the spiritual path, "the hard way".

"Once we commit ourselves to the spiritual path, it is very painful and we are in for it. We have committed ourselves to the pain of exposing ourselves, of taking off our clothes, our skin, nerves, heart, brains, until we are exposed to the universe. Nothing will be left. It will be terrible, excruciating, but that is the way it is.

Somehow we find ourselves in the presence of a strange doctor. He is going to operate on us, but he is not going to use an anaesthetic because he really wants to communicate with our illness. He is not going to allow us to put on our facade of spirituality, psychological sophistication, false psychological illness or any other disguise. We wish we had never met him. We wish we understood how to anarsthetize ourselves. But now we are in for it. There is no way out.

This operation is the only way to communicate with ourselves, so we must accept it. The more we ask questions, "What are you going to do to me?", the more embarrassed we become, because we know what we are. It is an extremely narrow path with no escape, a painful path...the hard way."

The ''physician" he's discussing is a guru, but I think we can think of withdrawal in the same way.

 

It sums up this whole ordeal perfectly. No matter what I've tried, there has been no way out, no short cuts, no lasting relief and every little bit of improvement has revealed another layer of pain to be worked through.

 

Everything which pretended to be me and my life is gone. There's nothing left but a dried out shell and even this is threatening to crumble to dust at any moment. I keep feeding this empty housing, giving it water and all the things it needs to stay alive, hoping that one day it will contain life again. The only life here is a chaotic, frantic, shuddering as dying cells and tormented nerves try to makes sense of a torn and damaged map.

 

Something is still here, feeling every movement as life continues to try and make sense of itself.  Each effort sends a ripple of futility cascading outwards, I watch each one as it dissolves into nothing.

 

There's only one thing left to do, letting go. It seems to be both impossible and easy at the same time. Something in me wont let go of the illusion that I have some control over this process. Its not even my own life any more, something else has taken over. It seems  amused at my inability to accept the truth, a truth which I've been looking for most of my life.

 

I took half an inositol capsule at 9pm last night. I had watched a few youtube videos about how great inositol is. I had bought them months ago, but had been scared to try them. Last night I did. I fell asleep early, it certainly made me sleepy, but then I was awake again at 1am and had the worst night I've had in a long time. Adreneline rushes like they were in early withdrawal and even though I could go back to sleep after them, they kept coming all night long and into most of this morning. The vitamin C wasn't doing anything to help today.

 

Was this caused by half an inositol capsule?  maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.... I just don't want to still be going through this.

 

Symptoms improve, slowly, some go away completely, but I'm still pinned down like a helpless bug on a display board, I can wiggle around a bit, in pain, in desperation, but I'm not going anywhere, I can't escape. I've either adapted to any improvement brought about by high dose C, or its beneficial effects are wearing off. I know I've been feeling better, physically, but its not helping in any significant way, and last night and this morning was awful again. I'm still stuck on my bed most of the day, waiting for the return of my soul.

 

I guess I will continue reading through my thread, hoping to feel some encouragement from recognizing my documented evidence of recovery. I can almost see it here amongst the constant waves which keep dragging me backwards.

[moodyblues78]

Hi Petu

 

It is hard to accept that you pretty much are a passenger in this process, isn`t it? Like you must very well know there are no shortcuts. You are one of those who because of some reason has got to walk the long route back to well. But think how wise and strong you`ll be once this is over. There is nothing that can crush you anymore. Then the rest of us will envy your strength and wisdom.

 

So never regret or get bitter. Just accept your tough route and keep walking   

 

   

[btdt]

I don't get the bit you quoted but I get this.

"Symptoms improve, slowly, some go away completely, but I'm still pinned down like a helpless bug on a display board, I can wiggle around a bit, in pain, in desperation, but I'm not going anywhere, I can't escape"

 

I have had times I can even go almost normal for a time then back I slip.  I don't know if others have this onslaught of illnesses or not but it seems I am one thing after the other with infections/inflammation again. 

I hope you gain some ground under your feet by reading your history... sorry the vit C took a turn.  I had that with mag and Vit B both thought I had found my answer with mag till it turned on me.. same with vit B... a specific blend for fibro the health food store suggested.. both crashed. I wish I knew why too but I don't. 

I wish you peace.

[Petunia]

I hope you gain some ground under your feet by reading your history... sorry the vit C took a turn.  I had that with mag and Vit B both thought I had found my answer with mag till it turned on me..

 

I want to clarify what I wrote in my last post, because I think I gave the wrong impression about what was going on, I was confused and disheartened about the sudden worsening of symptoms again.  The vitamin C hasn't 'turned' on me, it just wasn't helping yesterday when I seemed to be having a bad reaction to the inositol I took the night before. I'm back to my slightly higher baseline again this morning, physically feeling calmer again.  When I take enough of it, if I haven't done anything stupid, then it definitely helps take the edge of the physical agitation/anxiety/akathisia response I experience every morning.

 

I've also gone back to taking taurine twice a day after reading in my thread earlier that it was helping more that way, I had dropped back to only taking it at night.

 

Magnesium, taurine and vitamin C are helpful for me, inositol isn't. I'm still not sure about the green smoothies with pea protein, omega 3s and low dose of Thorn brand basic nutrients.

 

Thanks Moody, its hard not to get bitter and despondent at times, I don't think I would be human if I didn't, but I'm able to pick myself back up from these falls now. A couple of years ago, before I found this site, I had all but given up on myself and any hope of recovery, but on most days now, at least later in the day, it appears to be possible.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Petu--  That quote from Narcissus sums up the spiritual journey so well, it also sums up the WD journey as well.  The drugs and symptoms have laid our souls bare to the universe and we must redress them one star at a time by laying hold of the burning material, immersing our selves in it and shaking off what doesn't fit.  Over and over again until we are a whole body made of star stuff and impervious to their heat.  A slow and painful process that builds a being that is dazzling to behold.

 

((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))

[Petunia]

That was beautiful Tom, and so inspiring

[dalsaan]

 

Something is still here, feeling every movement as life continues to try and make sense of itself. 

 

 

That something is a potential waiting to be actualised, feeling everything, controlling nothing but there waiting for the conditions to be different - like a seed in the middle of a drought

 

D x

[Petunia]

Thanks D, I love the seed analogy, potential contained in a protective shell. Another aspect of seeds which seems relevant is that they have to break open before growth can begin.

 

I'm still reading back through my thread and just came across this and was shocked

 

My confidence had returned and frustration had been replaced with an enthusiasm for problem solving.   I needed to buy a new container for storing clothes pegs/pins for the washing line.  I bought one which needed some minor assembly, very basic, something your average 6 year old could figure out, but I was still concerned because I have completely lost my ability to problem solve and learn.  But this afternoon, I took the thing out of its package and instead of being overwhelmed with trepidation, I found myself enthusiastically engaged in the small challenge.  I noticed the difference and it felt like a miracle, I was so happy to have this trait back, even if it was temporary.  Its been shocking and traumatic to find myself overwhelmed by even the most basic of challenges for the past few years, I was grateful to be having a positive experience of putting together a plastic peg basket to hang on the washing line.

 

 

I recently remembered this incident and my current memory of it is completely different from the reality I wrote about shortly after it happened. The waves and distortions of withdrawal have turned this memory completely around and I was remembering it as being a traumatic and difficult chore which I had struggled with. I remembered myself breaking out in a cold sweat and shaking, even now, that's my memory of it, but obviously that's not how it was. This is evidence of how withdrawal creates false memories and casts everything in a negative light, we can't trust our own minds while going through this.

 

I've had a much better day today and got some things done this afternoon, I'm not going write any details at the moment, apart from this, I spontaneously bought a pot of planted kale and put in in my garden, I actually dug a hole and planted it... properly with fertilizer, like I used to do. I've got some physical stuff going on at the moment, pain related, but apart from that, I've been feeling quite a bit better today.

[brassmonkey]

Kale to the Chief Petu. (sorry really dad joke, which means I must be feeling fairly good today).  I have had a small garden of some sort most of my life.  While in the thick of WD a few years ago I almost let it go for a couple of years but finally managed to plant a couple of tomatoes each time.  I am so glad I did.  The simple act of getting my hands dirty and then watching the plant grow helped to ground me so much.  I have always had a spiritual connection with the earth and this simple act made me renew my yearly connection when I needed it most.  I managed to so some planting at the beginning of February (Southern Californians can get away with that) and have been so excited watching the plants grow and blossom.  Watching them everyday reminds me that I am a part of the greater whole and am comfortable in my nitch.

 

Glad you're feeling better today.

 

((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))

[Petunia]

Me too Tom, a spiritual connection to the earth, although I hadn't really thought about it that way until I read your post. A few more pieces just fell into place for me after reading what you wrote.

 

My connection with the earth must have began when I was very young because whenever I went outside to play, I couldn't bear to wear anything on my feet, it was like I needed to be in connection with the ground, it seemed a minor inconvenience that it may have been painful, what with stones and prickles and the hot Australian scorched earth.  I guess I grew out of it because I wear shoes these days.

 

My first experience of owning a plant happened when I was 15, I received one as a gift, it was quite unexpected and I didn't have any idea what to do with it, but was captured by the idea of being able to participate in the growth and development of something  that was alive. It was a variety of philodendron and I learned all I could about it so I could help it thrive and reach its potential.  Back then there was no internet, so I had to go to the library.

 

It was a hobby which grew, perhaps a little out of control, at its height I found myself with 107 houseplants to take care of. Looking back, I can see how important plants became and a way of supporting something inside me. This one time when I was traveling and was going to be staying in a motel for 3 weeks before moving on, I bought a plant for the windowsill and took care of it through the time I was there. I had to leave it behind, but I hoped that someone else would adopt it and take care of it after I left.

 

When I got married and my husband and I bought our home, I remember feeling exhilarated that I had a permanent patch of earth to put down roots. Planting my first tree into the garden was like a ritual, if felt like I was finally able to stop moving and put my own roots down into the ground. This was where we were going to grow old together and watch our grandchildren play.  Unfortunately, my husband wasn't the slightest bit interested in my tree planting ritual, in fact he wanted to cut everything down and pave over the entire area. For our entire marriage we had an ongoing feud over the garden, I wanted to plant, grow, nurture and create, he wanted to cut, remove, kill and destroy. He often threatened me with landscapers with bulldozers, saying that he was going to hire someone to come and get rid of the whole garden, the garden he knew I loved. He wanted me inside the house, where a woman belongs, not in the garden, doing man work. I used to paint fences, cut the grass, repair the reticulation, I had to because he was rarely there.

 

Anyway, I spent years protecting my garden and putting my heart and soul into it. Like Tom (brassmonkey) I got excited watching the plants grow and blossom, year after year it was like co-creating with God, taking part in directing a living work of art. Perhaps what was missing from my marriage, I tried to get from working in the garden. For a while, my husband and I reached a sort of compromise, I could keep the garden, but he hired a gardener, who was instructed to cut and prune and dig up according to my husbands wishes. He preferred seeing walls and fences, human constructions, I desperately needed to look at nature. I didn't understand why he was acting the way he was, he was hardly ever home so I didn't know why he cared about how it looked. I didn't understand that it was all about control.

 

Life as I knew it started to unravel eventually .... its still painful trying to put it into words, so much loss over the last 8 years of my life.

 

I have a few houseplants again now, and something outside which I wouldn't exactly call a garden, there are some old paving slabs and a lot of weeds, a few patches of dirt. There's my pathetic attempt at making a garden bed out of one patch of dirt, which I attempted while in acute withdrawal. There is so much work to be done here and even if I could do it, which I can't, it could never be anything like what I lost.

 

I hope the kale plant survives, I have to remember to water it by hand every few days, the garden I lost was fully reticulated.

 

When I met my ex-husband, he had recently declared bankruptcy, he lived with his parents and didn't even own the car he drove. I met him while I was traveling. I had overstayed my visa and was basically an illegal alien.  We got our own place, used my credit, got married, started a family, we lived in the suburbs not far from Chicago. He worked 2 jobs and I started a small business I ran from home. Eventually, with the help of my parents we moved our little family to Australia and once here, my husband's social life and career took off like the proverbial rocket and I was mostly at home alone taking care of our daughter. He became very successful and wealthy, his charisma, accent and confidence made him much sought after in his industry. He suddenly had opportunities he'd never know before and it seems that his wife and child stopped being a priority in his life. I think he started to see me as a liability and wanted to be single. He got an apartment near the city where he worked and only came home on the weekends. He worked late, or so he said.  I became addicted to antidepressants.  He got himself very well connected and somehow managed to hide a lot of assets.  I was naive and had trusted him completely with our finances. I had to get a loan to hire lawyers to try and find the money in order to get a fair settlement, I believed in justice back then.  I fought him for 4 years trying to find out where all the money had gone, trying to protect our daughter, trying to get a passport for her so she could go to Japan with her school, trying to keep our home. Miserable long story with bad ending, he ended up with a new beautiful mansion by the river, living with the younger, prettier girlfriend he'd been keeping for the previous several years, paying her bills and taking her on his business trips and by the time I had paid my loan back, I didn't even have enough money to buy a small apartment for our daughter and me to live in. We lost the home, which should have been paid off, instead I got nothing and my husband now owns a two story mansion in an exclusive area by the river, boat, pool brand new bmw, with every latest gadget and gizmo money can buy. I never wanted a lot of stuff, just a comfortable home, loving husband, happy family, supporting each other. I'm not sure how it all went so wrong.  It actually got even worse, but I'm not going to write any more, maybe it will go into the book which everyone keeps saying I should write.

 

But it didn't all go wrong. My daughter is happy and thriving and has a great life now. She has made peace with her dad and now has the best of both of us. 

 

Being able to plant some kale in the ground in my yard is a bit of a turning point really, its one more little step towards accepting my new reality and letting go of some anger, bitterness and resentment towards some of the things which happened.  Every day I'm not only dealing with withdrawal, but I'm desperately trying to avoid becoming bitter and cynical, I'm trying to rise above the anger and resentment and find things to be grateful for.

 

I'm trying so hard to let it all go and move on, but its not easy when I'm still so sick, it just all seems so unfair, but I'm not going to let 'it' win, whatever 'it' is. It seems like something is trying to crush my spirit, make me into something broken and mean and angry and I'm not going to let it win. I still have my soul, perhaps this is the most important thing.

 

I hadn't planned on writing all this, was just going to make a few comments about gardening. Spose I better press the post button now before I change my mind.

[brassmonkey]

All that from one little kale plant, just shows how powerful nature is.  The lives we have lead, I am constantly amazed at the things I read here about what people have been through.  Books and movies have nothing on real life.  I am a firm believer in karma having seen the "others" get theirs in the end many times, and knowing that if they were in my shoes they couldn't handle it.

 

From as young as I can remember I was always digging in the earth.  I love the feel, the sound, the smell of good clean dirt and miss it greatly when I don't get a chance to connect frequently.  Heaven is sitting on the ground under a tree watching a thunderstorm.

 

Gotta stop I'm at work and can't make a public display of myself.

 

(((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))

[freespirit]

I've been following your thread and very much appreciate your posts. I'm sorry for what you've been through...it's tough to be grieving and dealing with ad at once.

 

I share your love of the earth and of gardening. Planting has become hugely important since my wife died a few years ago. For me, it helps remind me of my connection to the cycles of life..and also, is a way of honoring her. She too, loved to garden.

 

I hope your new kale plant thrives...and that nature continues to bring healing to you.

 

Have you read "the faithful gardener" by Clarissa Pinkola Estes? A short little book, which sustained me through some difficult times. A quote from there:

 

"New seed

is faithful.

It roots deepest

in the places

that are

most empty."

[btdt]

All that from one little kale plant, just shows how powerful nature is.  The lives we have lead, I am constantly amazed at the things I read here about what people have been through.  Books and movies have nothing on real life.  I am a firm believer in karma having seen the "others" get theirs in the end many times, and knowing that if they were in my shoes they couldn't handle it.

 

From as young as I can remember I was always digging in the earth.  I love the feel, the sound, the smell of good clean dirt and miss it greatly when I don't get a chance to connect frequently.  Heaven is sitting on the ground under a tree watching a thunderstorm.

 

Gotta stop I'm at work and can't make a public display of myself.

 

(((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

I would love to see withdrawal in a movie... love it!  

 

I wonder who would play the lead.. maybe a lot of different people all in withdrawal typing at home on their computers all leading different lives and how they interact on a withdrawal site... we need to get somebody good to play Alto but who?  

 

She has to be good... 

 

her are some ideas 

 

Glen Close  Meryl Streep Sissy Spacek ...............................who is going to play you?

we can move this to a new post if anyone wants to play