Apathy, anhedonia, emotional numbness, emotional anesthesia

[Kat66]

On 2/3/2022 at 5:40 AM, Manati said:

@Kat66 that's great to hear, I'm so happy for you! Were/are you able 'feel' anxiety and depressive emotions in your anhedonic state? Or no emotions at all?

 

 

I could only feel negative emotions, so yes the depressive and anxious emotions were there, just no pleasurable ones. So not emotional anesthesia as such, but definitely anhedonia.

[Kat66]

On 2/2/2022 at 8:28 PM, kostakonkordia said:

Congrats. That sounds very good :)). Have you done anything specific or did it change with time? 

I have just plodded on with the same routine for months now. No alcohol (well, since November), no caffeine, healthy vegan diet, some exercise (energy levels permitting), and relaxation, together with magnesium, omega3, vit D, lemon balm tea and a tiny dose of citalopram. So maybe it was just time and this routine which helped. I've also just started psychotherapy sessions so maybe that's a factor too, in that some hopefulness has emerged with the decision to get therapy?

[Manati]

Ah I see, thanks for letting me know. In this case, I think it is only a question of time to your recovery! 🙂 💜

 

13 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

I could only feel negative emotions, so yes the depressive and anxious emotions were there, just no pleasurable ones. So not emotional anesthesia as such, but definitely anhedonia.

 

[Kat66]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:15 PM, ThatOneGirlStitch said:

Kate that is wonderful! I hope you experience continued improvement! Is the lifting constant of have you noticed it in certain things? So glad for you! 🥰

Thank you! The lifting isn't constant yet but it's quite noticeable, yes. I still notice occasional numbness but that doesn't surprise me. It's a process isn't it?

 

What you're going through sounds awful. You sound like you're losing hope. Is the anhedonia still a big part of your suffering or is your main issue getting enough food? Thinking about you xx

[Kat66]

3 minutes ago, Manati said:

Ah I see, thanks for letting me know. In this case, I think it is only a question of time to your recovery! 🙂 💜

 

 

Yes, time and patience, and I hope time heals everyone from this godawful numbness.

[Manati]

I think when one can still feel anxiety and the depressive emotions, just no positive emotions, that's the kind of anhedonia that has good chances of healing! 🙂

 

9 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

Yes, time and patience, and I hope time heals everyone from this godawful numbness.

 

[Manati]

I think anhedonia/emotional flatness is a typical symptom of depression, but emotional anesthesia is a completely different thing... I found that in depression, I could at least feel some negative emotions and my connection to others.

 

10 hours ago, Nic123 said:

Thats my thinking, I dont discount at all how they feel but there just has to be more to this than "permanent brain damage to frontal lobe" Maybe it very well is but its honestly useless to even think like that. It achieves absolutely nothing but hopelessness. most if not all of my issues could be attributed to severe depression and i wouldn't even know. Im positive its not but thats how doctors would explain it. 

 

[ThatOneGirlStitch]

1 hour ago, Kat66 said:

 

What you're going through sounds awful. You sound like you're losing hope. Is the anhedonia still a big part of your suffering or is your main issue getting enough food? Thinking about you xx

The anhedonia is about 50% of my pain currently. But if I want to get rid of it I have to eat. So right now eating is 70%. The math doesn't add up but thats how I feel. Your thoughts mean so much. And your journey is inspiring. 

[Nic123]

13 hours ago, Manati said:

I think when one can still feel anxiety and the depressive emotions, just no positive emotions, that's the kind of anhedonia that has good chances of healing! 🙂

 

 

I think thats what i have i can absolutely feel "depressed" i do have some kind of anxiety but its different i dont really feel the anxiety but its still there in some way. Its hard to explain but i just dont get the anxious feeling with it. But i still dont experience any emotions anymore really like joy, excitment, anger, rush of motivation etc. Its just a blank feeling all the time, pure hell really.

[Nic123]

@julesb https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/91600-anyone-recover-from-blank-mindno-inner-monlogue/ Interesting read as we seem to be going through the same thing. Others seem to have similar and maybe theres was ssri induced.

[Manati]

12 hours ago, Nic123 said:

I think thats what i have i can absolutely feel "depressed" i do have some kind of anxiety but its different i dont really feel the anxiety but its still there in some way. Its hard to explain but i just dont get the anxious feeling with it. But i still dont experience any emotions anymore really like joy, excitment, anger, rush of motivation etc. Its just a blank feeling all the time, pure hell really.

 

hmm yeah it sounds more like emotional anesthesia, not 'just' anhedonia... I'm in the same boat - I can notice an anxious reaction of my body, but there's no emotion involved.

[Manati]

12 hours ago, Nic123 said:

@julesb https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/91600-anyone-recover-from-blank-mindno-inner-monlogue/ Interesting read as we seem to be going through the same thing. Others seem to have similar and maybe theres was ssri induced.

 

god, and they all seem to be in since many years... just like on here. It's so frightening/discouraging. I have no idea how to survive this state for many years/forever. How did they do it? I guess they were all hopeful in the beginning, and then the years went by.

[Manati]

It was SNRI- induced in my case, too. Ironically, if I hadn't followed the reinstatment advice of this forum, I'd be fine. I still can't believe this happened.

 

12 hours ago, Nic123 said:

 

https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/91600-anyone-recover-from-blank-mindno-inner-monlogue/ Interesting read as we seem to be going through the same thing. Others seem to have similar and maybe theres was ssri induced.

 

[Nic123]

6 hours ago, Manati said:

It was SNRI- induced in my case, too. Ironically, if I hadn't followed the reinstatment advice of this forum, I'd be fine. I still can't believe this happened.

 

 

I wouldn’t beat yourself up over it. Honestly don’t think it would have made a difference. I took half the recommended dose of escitalpram for 2 months taprered over the weeks and had no withdrawals felt fine then about 1-2 months into stopping I felt way different. and here iam 14 months later. Has anyone wondered if this is schizophrenia? I obviously don’t have hallucinations or weird thoughts but seems like they also don’t have emotions.

[Nic123]

In a seriously bad wave atm. There does seem to be ups and downs in this every few weeks I’m noticing. even when the ups are still very average but I feel OK. Right now I just want to sleep all day and feel so fogged and dissociated 

[kostakonkordia]

1 hour ago, Nic123 said:

I wouldn’t beat yourself up over it. Honestly don’t think it would have made a difference. I took half the recommended dose of escitalpram for 2 months taprered over the weeks and had no withdrawals felt fine then about 1-2 months into stopping I felt way different. and here iam 14 months later. Has anyone wondered if this is schizophrenia? I obviously don’t have hallucinations or weird thoughts but seems like they also don’t have emotions.

I have heard about the 2 months after last dorse everything went downhill sooo often. It was the same for me, I had minimal withdrawal for about one week max after the last dose and 2-3 months after that everything got bad.

That's also one reason I don't belive in the brain damage whatever theory anymore. I have never heard of an heroin addict being fine for 2 months and then getting withdrawal.... 

I think I already wrote about that but

the explanation that I can come up with is that serotonin is massively involved in gut motility and after you discontinue you're serotonin is low so you're motility is slowed down very hard. Slow motility can also be a cause for dysbiosis. So I guess in these 2 months dysbiosis builds up and ****kes you then big time. If that's true you could counteract with some procinetics or in general take measures for motility. 

That's probably not the only mechanism involved. 

 

And no schizophrenia is something totally different although anhedonia is a so called negative symptom of schizophrenia. 

But besides that schizophrenia is a very vague term and does describe everything and nothing at the same time. Schizophrenia and psychosis is a really interesting phenomenon to be honest. There was a book written in the 70s I want to read, but I can't recall the titel now... 

Edited February 6, 2022 by kostakonkordia

[kostakonkordia]

50 minutes ago, Nic123 said:

In a seriously bad wave atm. There does seem to be ups and downs in this every few weeks I’m noticing. even when the ups are still very average but I feel OK. Right now I just want to sleep all day and feel so fogged and dissociated 

Keep it up bro, I hope you get better soon. 

[Nic123]

3 hours ago, kostakonkordia said:

I have heard about the 2 months after last dorse everything went downhill sooo often. It was the same for me, I had minimal withdrawal for about one week max after the last dose and 2-3 months after that everything got bad.

That's also one reason I don't belive in the brain damage whatever theory anymore. I have never heard of an heroin addict being fine for 2 months and then getting withdrawal.... 

I think I already wrote about that but

the explanation that I can come up with is that serotonin is massively involved in gut motility and after you discontinue you're serotonin is low so you're motility is slowed down very hard. Slow motility can also be a cause for dysbiosis. So I guess in these 2 months dysbiosis builds up and ****kes you then big time. If that's true you could counteract with some procinetics or in general take measures for motility. 

That's probably not the only mechanism involved. 

 

And no schizophrenia is something totally different although anhedonia is a so called negative symptom of schizophrenia. 

But besides that schizophrenia is a very vague term and does describe everything and nothing at the same time. Schizophrenia and psychosis is a really interesting phenomenon to be honest. There was a book written in the 70s I want to read, but I can't recall the titel now... 

 

Your right there, thats what i thought about the brain damage theory. The best i can come up with is that the body was artificially flooded with serotonin or who knows what else on the ssri then when we stop it takes around the 2 month mark for it to be gone out of the system then possibly the gut/brain freaks out that its not getting the artificial dose anymore and doesn't know what to do. Either that or it rewires how the brain experiences pleasure/reward etc and doesnt know how to return to baseline without the ssri. I have no idea though lol

[Nic123]

3 hours ago, kostakonkordia said:

Keep it up bro, I hope you get better soon. 

 

Thanks i hope we all do. a while ago i drank a anti inflammatory mixture of ginger/tumeric and a bunch of other fruit in a shake and found out a couple months later someone said they got a permanent crash from ginger like wtf lol i keep blaming that for how im feeling now 😂

[ThatOneGirlStitch]

So I went to I told my partner I love her. She replied I love you more. I told her that wasn't fair as she knows I have anhedonia. 

She stuck her tongue out at me. Cheeky...

I know I really do love her. 

[Jnthnslo]

I can concure that the process upon stopping was not instant for me as well. I stopped taking my SRNI after 4 days and got mild headaches and dizziness but the emotional anesthesia did not start until a few weeks later. Probably about 4. One day I just woke up and couldn't feel anything anymore. It was almost like a waves/windows in reverse where it would go away/let up but each day it kept happening longer and longer until I'm here now at 4 months were it is none stop. Since it was gradual, I am also not in the camp that believes that it is some type of permanent toxicity that happened immediately.  Based on toxicology, the medication would have been out of my system way before this anhedonia started.  It could make since that this somehow caused gut issues that slowly cascaded in severity. With that, I just don't understand why the mechanism could occur one people stop the medication. If the medicine destroyed gut balance wouldn't this still occur in those on the medicine and not when they stopped? 

[julesb]

@Jnthnslo Same exact thing happened to me!!! Also before i got the emotional numbness i had a bunch of panic attacks and at one point i had a paranoia episode.

[kostakonkordia]

37 minutes ago, Jnthnslo said:

I can concure that the process upon stopping was not instant for me as well. I stopped taking my SRNI after 4 days and got mild headaches and dizziness but the emotional anesthesia did not start until a few weeks later. Probably about 4. One day I just woke up and couldn't feel anything anymore. It was almost like a waves/windows in reverse where it would go away/let up but each day it kept happening longer and longer until I'm here now at 4 months were it is none stop. Since it was gradual, I am also not in the camp that believes that it is some type of permanent toxicity that happened immediately.  Based on toxicology, the medication would have been out of my system way before this anhedonia started.  It could make since that this somehow caused gut issues that slowly cascaded in severity. With that, I just don't understand why the mechanism could occur one people stop the medication. If the medicine destroyed gut balance wouldn't this still occur in those on the medicine and not when they stopped? 

Some people get instant "averse reactions" from just one dose. 

Others don't. Its the same for antibiotics. Some people get severely injured some don't. Maybe some people have underlying dysbiosis going on or it is some other mechanism, I don't know...

 

I already tried to explain it. When you discontinue, you're serotonin levels are low, serotonin is involved in gut motility which is important for you're microbiom. So you're gut stops to move around the bacteria. 

Then dysbiosis forms more easily. 

And the problem is that dysbiosis has a self reinforcement cycle and I belive that that's the reason people can suffer years from it. 

Some bacteria create a biofilm(mucus) around them so you're immunesystem cannot attack them. So the infection gets chronic. 

This is probably one mechanism in most chronic diseases /inflammations. 

Luckily there are biofilm disruptors available and there are also currently working on new ones in germany. 

But Bacteriophages can enter the biofilm anyways and kill the pathogens... 

So Phage therapy is the go to thing if you have the money to order them from Georgia(the land). They have no side effects because they are specialized for only one bacteria. Like a pair, one phages attacks one bacteria. 

Interestingly there are also virophages which "kill" viruses :)).

[kostakonkordia]

5 minutes ago, julesb said:

@Jnthnslo Same exact thing happened to me!!! Also before i got the emotional numbness i had a bunch of panic attacks and at one point i had a paranoia episode.

Yes same here I also had hour long panic attacks and then crushing depression, insomnia the worst time of my life essentially... Even thinking about this is horrible... Really traumatic experience...

 

[kostakonkordia]

Hey guys, 

I have news for you. 

Lastround360 a friend of mine from pssd subreddit told me that someone on the anhedonia subreddit has tested positive for dopamin receptors autoantibodys. 

This is an indication that anhedonia actually has something to do with low dopamine. This can also explain why some people with anhedonia get better from dopamineactive substances like wellbutrin or mdma. 

These autoantibodys are very likely a result of leaky gut (bacteria and particles diffusing into the blood stream which trigger a autoimmune response) ergo dysbiosis. 

 

[ThatOneGirlStitch]

3 hours ago, kostakonkordia said:

Some people get instant "averse reactions" from just one dose. 

This is what makes me sad. I want to meet other people who recovered. 

[Nic123]

for me i think i was doomed from the first pill. Instantly i could feel my emotions blunted and i felt pretty spaced out for a good few weeks while starting. sex drive was down a tad but nothing major and i was actually happy i wasnt consumed by my urges for once. It was actually bliss as i felt calm for the first time in years, i do remember lying in bed and noticing "hey i dont have constant chatter in my head!" Of course doctor said "its completely normal" I did start to feel better after a few weeks and genuinely felt euphoric and Good on the lexapro but i noticed i couldn't really be stimulated from anything really and generally felt numb like everything was dulled slightly in some way, its hard to explain but it was a different sort of numb than it is now. Now it is 1000x worst. Like it sounds silly but before i started ssri's i was a compulsive researcher on all different topics etc and would actually feel a buzz while i was the research on topics i was interested in etc, guessing this was dopamine releasing. But that just went away and i was worried what was going on and that was partly why i stopped taking them. That and i couldn't feel emotions really at all anymore. I kind of think they may have just fried my dopamine receptors or seratonin receptors as i literally feel nothing now. I clearly remember feeling things in my stomach or chest and its just gone i cant even feel excitement aynmore, its almost like the neural pathways in my brain have all stopped communicating on everything but the essential

 

I still wonder if i somehow damaged my recovery in the earlier months by possibly being on the computer to long. If the brain was trying to find a balance again maybe it screwed it up

[ThatOneGirlStitch]

What are people's opinions on this:

https://www.amazon.com/Anhedonia-Workbook-Worksheets-Dialectical-Behavioral/dp/B09RG64HB3/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?crid=3Q1M9EKTF90QB&keywords=Anhedonia&qid=1644192757&sprefix=anhedonia%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-12#featureBulletsAndDetailBullets_feature_div

 

It looks like it's targeting depression caused anhedonia. Can really exercise the reward and emotion part of our brain like some say we can do the cognitive?

[kostakonkordia]

10 hours ago, ThatOneGirlStitch said:

What are people's opinions on this:

https://www.amazon.com/Anhedonia-Workbook-Worksheets-Dialectical-Behavioral/dp/B09RG64HB3/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?crid=3Q1M9EKTF90QB&keywords=Anhedonia&qid=1644192757&sprefix=anhedonia%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-12#featureBulletsAndDetailBullets_feature_div

 

It looks like it's targeting depression caused anhedonia. Can really exercise the reward and emotion part of our brain like some say we can do the cognitive?

Maybe this could help. You could try it. I heard that the wim hof method heightens dopamine so this might also help... Besides fixing you're gut problem of course ;)). 

[kostakonkordia]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PSSD/comments/sonxco/gut_microbiota_theory_part_3_dopamine_receptor/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

That's the third part of the pssd theory from lastround360. Very interesting new connection made there... 

 

[david1123]

Hi!

for a few weeks I started to get such windows when I had more feelings, but still there was some soiling and now they are on a stable level, I think about the ex-girlfriend now and the memories started to evoke some emotions in me, but still not the same as before. Are these windows all I can feel or will they get more and more intense?

I also suffer from pssd but it has worsened from month to month and now I am standing still.

 

I am very worried if it will continue to improve

[ChessieCat]

  

4 hours ago, john856 said:

Personal progress update: I can laugh and feel it.

 

Last night, I was watching a movie called Black Sheep, starring Chris Farley & David Spade. Afterwards it dawned on me how much I laughed and felt the emotions. Up until this point, happiness felt very muted or zombie-like.

 

[julesb]

hey guys , haven’t been on here in a little while , i’m having a really hard time with this numbness. I guess i’m loosing hope i want to get better so badly , i see many who have gotten better from the emotional numbness but i always think the worst in my case. I guess it’s best just to not read anything because it creates more stress. Anyways i hope everyone is doing well i hope we all get through this i know we can  

[Nic123]

On 2/24/2022 at 5:47 PM, julesb said:

hey guys , haven’t been on here in a little while , i’m having a really hard time with this numbness. I guess i’m loosing hope i want to get better so badly , i see many who have gotten better from the emotional numbness but i always think the worst in my case. I guess it’s best just to not read anything because it creates more stress. Anyways i hope everyone is doing well i hope we all get through this i know we can  

Hey you arent alone. i was doing OK for a couple weeks but i seemed to have fallen into this extreme numbness again, it almost seems to come on like clockwork . Been on lions mane for a bit hopefully that helps my mood. Wouldn't it be nice if we could experience emotions just once again. I feel like in my dreams i still have emotions its weird. Key for me is really staying off forums especially the PSSD subreddit, that just spirals me even more into hopelessness. 

 

Are you taking any supplements?

[Kat66]

Hi everyone who's going through the numbness, apathy, anhedonia etc. I just wanted to check in to see how you were all doing? I also wanted to give you some hope again that things can improve. I am feeling emotions again and getting joy out of life after months of not doing. I was in the depths of despair not so long ago as I just felt nothing, but slowly it's come back. I hope and pray the same happens to you guys. xxx

[canaanstongue01]

@Kat66 numbness pretty much non stop here. glad to hear you are feeling again