Muddles: desperate

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Going up a is not an option. I really can't stabilize with what's happened.

How do you know if you don't try?

[Muddles]

Because I am in poop-out. I was just as sick on a full dose. Going up will do nothing but make things worse.

[Muddles]

Petu - I have digital scales and cut that way.

 

I have thought about swapping to another drug to maybe help stabilise - then slowly withdraw from that. But I'm so sensitive to meds, I doubt this would work.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Sorry Muddles, I forgot about your 'poop out' problems. And you can't cut either as you mention above. Switching to another drug might make you too sensitive to that. What do you think Dr. Healy might want you to try?

 

Hope you can figure it out and start to feel better. Is anything from the Symptoms and Self Care topics helping?

[Muddles]

I think Dr Healy will probably get me to withdraw.

 

From what I can gather - once an antidepressant poops-out you don't really respond to further drugs. It will most probably cause more problems.

 

I will look into symtoms and self care, thanks.

[Petunia]

This is truly gonna mess my kids up.

They are sensitive kids. I had so many plans made. My daughter is approaching her teenage years and needs her mum. All mum can do is stay in bed all day! What life is this for children?

 

 

In CBT terms I think these kinds of thoughts are called catastrophizing and emotional reasoning.  I understand how upset you are about not being able to be the kind of parent you want right now.  I too have been through the same kind of thing with my daughter and have struggled with overwhelming guilt and helplessness because of it.

 

In order to get through it, I've had to force myself to change my thinking.

 

Challenge those thoughts and look for neutral or positive ones to replace them with.  You don't know that this is going to mess your kids up, they may learn valuable life lessons which will make them stronger and more compassionate people.  Your daughter still has her mum, just in a different way for now.

 

Very few people have a life which goes completely according to plan, none of us are really in control of what happens to us, I think the important thing is how we deal with what does happen.  We have to be role models for our children as well as care takers.  When life throws us lemons, and everyone gets some, we have a choice about what we do with them.  If our children are watching us, they are learning from our example. It can be very difficult to break patterns of behavior learned through bad examples. 

 

Adverse drug reactions and withdrawal are some pretty rotten lemons.  Maybe not a good analogy, but even bad lemons have seeds which can be dried, painted and turned into bracelets.

 

Of course this is just an idea and you can ignore it if you want, but you could see this as an opportunity to teach your children about acceptance and taking care of yourself when you need to.

 

I'm in no way trying to minimize how difficult and painful this experience is, I know what its like, living from minute to minute, holding on, trying to get to the next moment which might feel slightly less horrendous.

 

But what I've found is that by learning how to ignore and push away negative thinking and invite positive, hopeful thoughts, it helps by relaxing the nervous system, which speeds up recovery.

 

You will recover in time and I believe that learning how to develop a more positive, accepting attitude speeds up the process.

[bubble]

this is so beautiful and true Petu!

 

I'm very reluctant to write anything for fear of spoiling the beauty and strength of your message.

 

I've always been fighting CBT but it's a very valuable technique. If our thoughts torment us, we have to neutralize them. If life throws you lemons, make a lemonade (and add some sugar into it).

 

I've also always had problems with desired outcomes I set for myself  and feeling awfully unhappy if things didn't turn out the way I expected them to be.

 

When we are talking about our children we are under absolute compulsion to make everything perfect for them and shield them from all negative things in life.

 

It's all so hard but you have indicated a way through which we can grow amidst all the horror.

 

Dear Muddles, it's very likely that this experience will make your children stronger and more rounded human beings 

[Muddles]

Thank you bubble

 

It's akathasia. The crying, the restlessness, the suicidal thoughts. I will never forgive my doctor for not recognising this when I first went on an ssri.

I never would have touched another drug - especially one that does the same. It's terrible and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

 

God how I wish I'd done my resarch.

[Muddles]

I must add - I dropped 1mg last night.

 

I haven't cried today and managed to do a bit more other than lie in bed. I also looked at a photo and felt a bit of emotion. But felt high - and more irratable.

 

I don't know if Alto could help here??

Do you thing my body is rejecting this drug.

Could it be possible that all of what's happened to me because of the drug and not withdrawel?

 

I can't get my head around it?

[bubble]

I hope others come in but to me it sounds very positive and proves that MammaP and Petu had a good hunch: it's not only that things didn't get worse after the drop but they improved!

 

it will still be a bumpy (wavy) ride but seems very promising development...

[Wolfhound]

Hi Muddles,

I have no words of comfort to offer...but others did it.

I wanted to say that I felt your pain so much. I share your thoughts, pain and fear. I honestly can´t get rid of any negative thinking concerning the children when I am low. This has been part of my mother´s thinking so far, CBT did not help, nor did any other technique. It must be abating throughout our journey. I hope so.

We are here to support each other. I am thinking of you.

[Rhiannon]

I must add - I dropped 1mg last night.

 

I haven't cried today and managed to do a bit more other than lie in bed. I also looked at a photo and felt a bit of emotion. But felt high - and more irratable.

 

I don't know if Alto could help here??

Do you thing my body is rejecting this drug.

Could it be possible that all of what's happened to me because of the drug and not withdrawel?

 

I can't get my head around it?

 

Nobody can say for certain what's happening with you, but we've had people on here before in what sounds like your situation: they are getting a bad effect from the drugs but they are also getting withdrawal effects when they cut.  Given your history (bad reaction to your very first AD and never really doing well on them) I suspect you're in this situation--the drugs are making you sick and so is the withdrawal from them.

 

There's no easy solution in these cases. You're between a rock and a hard place. 

 

Usually in this case people just move forward with the taper at what is usually a safe pace (the usual 10% taper is a good place to start). Sometimes they go with a slightly more aggressive taper at first and then slow down once they get the doses lower.

 

Eventually as the dose gets lower, the effects of the drug will lessen and you should be able to distinguish between the bad drug effects and the withdrawal effects. That will make it possible to adjust your taper according to your body's needs.

 

I would, of course, see what Dr. Healy suggests for you.

 

My heart goes out to you. This is an unendurable situation which you have no choice but to endure.

 

However, the good news: it will definitely get better. There is definitely a light at the end of this tunnel. You will come through this. Just take it one minute, one step at a time. I have seen many people do it, I have done it myself, and you can too.

 

Gia's website (Beyond Meds) has a lot of ideas and thoughts about coping with severe unremitting illness (she was terribly ill for years after coming off meds and is gradually recovering now). Perhaps you will find some strength and support there.

 

Please keep us posted as to how it goes with Healy too.

[Muddles]

Thank you Rhi.

 

I hope to bring good news of another window soon.

 

I wish there was a cure for akathasia. It's the pits.

[Muddles]

Hi guys!

 

Thought I would drop in. Haven't been doing a fat lot lately..adhedonia and apathy are massive at the moment. As you all know I suppose.

I have to calm myself down as it really disturbs me..not being able to connect to anything with pleasure, joy or sadness. Children have been off and I am not able to do anything with them.

It's strange - I want to, but something stops me dead...I just can't. This grieves me, and them.

I have a functioning 'ish body but nothing up there! A bit like locked in syndrome but vice-versa.

 

I am going to drop another mg tonight. I am speeding it up a bit as I am not any better at all really. I'm not very patient. It may help if I drop every week for a while. We shall see.

 

Hope you are all ok.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

A 10% drop (which is recommended as a SAFE taper) would be to 12.15mg. Dropping 1mg per week (because you are not very patient) would put you at around 9mg at the end of a month. A way more than 50% drop in one month. You may not like the changes it might bring.

[bubble]

Please dear Muddles, stick with the 10 % and longer holds as recommended so that you don't go from bad to worse. 

 

It's very good practice that before you make a drop, you just announce it here and see what people have to say. They will also supplement your patience.

 

also put all your changes into your signature so that we can see what is happening: dates and doses. Now I don't know how much you have dropped and when. And dropping every week sounds concerning. It takes 4 days for a change to register so going that fast is definitely going ahead of your brains ability to adapt to the change.

 

I know anhedonia is horrid but just let us know what you are doing. I so wish it just gets bored with you and leaves you alone...

 

take care.

[Muddles]

Thank you for your advise and time

 

Just thought that I may feel a bit better the lower I go. Cannot distinguish between side effects and withdrawel.

 

I will leave it and update sig

[Muddles]

Forgot to add - my husband took me to a&e hospital again the other day...suicidal thoughts and urges and restless legs to the point I could sit still

 

Hospital staff treated me terribly....because I'm basically mentally ill to them. Broke my heart.

 

Spoke to a mental health nurse (again), and although he didn't know anything about withdrawal, he did pick up on a few things that were so right. He agreed cbt would have fixed me from the beginning and states that once I taper off (recommends 2 weeks, ha ha) I will be back to my old self and can start CBT and all will be happy in life. They wanted to keep me in to withdraw me from mirtaApine whilst monitored.

He doesn't know anyone who has suffered major withdrawals apparently.?! Is it just us lot on here?

 

I knew my hospital visit would end with nothing but humiliation. I went because my husband was scared..it's difficult to hide away distress. My husband trusts these doctors and thinks I'm obsessed with withdrawal and retained too much knowledge. I know for a fact....if I hadn't have researched and found out what had happened or even not found this site - I would have been dead by now. I would have truly felt I'd lost the plot and listened to doctors, nurses and psychiatrist.

I had never met a psychiatrist up until after anti-depressants were prescribed. What does that say?

 

This is why I want to be alone. I really can't stand being with anyone at the moment. Curled up on a bed somewhere in the middle of no-where would suit me down to the ground.. No-one would see the suffering and at the same time I would not feel this constant guilt about being a big burden.

God - how I've changed.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Muddles,

 

I am curious. When you got here a little over a month after your family crisis, you announced you were in 'poop out'. What gave you that idea? There were a couple of people here that speculated a grief reaction. But you said definitely not. How did you find the term 'poop out' specifically, maybe a Google search? How did you find SA? I believe we have a topic somewhere where several have said how they found this place. Mine had something to do with a search on expensive supplements which turns out are overpriced and might have made me very ill. They were mentioned here and I checked out the board and decided to register here after reading a lot that clicked.

 

If you don't want to answer, that's OK. I'm sure you are stressed from going to the hospital and I don't really need to know.

 

Have you already talked to Dr. Healy and he suggested you start decreasing your meds? You didn't post about it if he did. Again, you don't have to tell. I am just trying to follow your story.

[Muddles]

Yes - poop-out almost instantly after my fathers death although it took a while for me to realize. I didnt feels right - I know my father had died but couldnt feel anything - i put this down to grief at first. then came a lot of other symtoms...twitches, jerks, Akathesia....rolling about in my bed shouting out with horrendous inner restlessness. This was the feeling I had when I had adverse reactions to antidepressants in the past. I couldn't understand how I was feeling like this on a full dose of mirtazapine. But I was certain at this point it was the drugs. A whole load of other stuff was happening and I was confused That's when I searched the Internet and discovered that an anti-depressant can suddenly stop working, especially after big stress. MirtaApine is notorious for it and I believe it was on its way out months prior to this as I had symtoms such as visual problems - nothing detected by optiticians and vertigo.

 

A lot of people speculate this as grief reaction.

I have not grieved for my father - haven't been able to. When I had a window last Sunday, I felt greif...painful, and went through my dads time in hospital and felt every single emotion I should have done at the time. This was most upsetting.

 

You see, lots of people speculate this as being grief. Absolutely no way...no way would I ever think of taking my own life and leaving my kids and husband. I know what these drugs have done to me...everything I think, feel or don't feel is a result of these drugs. I was an outgoing, loving, sociable person and this has taken everything away. The only greif I feel is that of myself.

 

I am actually quite wound up about yourself bringing up the grief reaction up here again.

 

I have enough of people thinking this terrible situation I'm in is down to grief. I am not one for over dramatising situations. I am in the thick of poop-out and withdrawels and not wanting to live from one hour to the next.

 

I would do anything to experience my dads death again - without being on this crap. That's how wrong this situation is.

[Muddles]

I am still waiting for dr Healy to set up a risk assessment/consultation online to discuss medication, side effects and withdrawel.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

/quote I am actually quite wound up about yourself bringing up the grief reaction up here again. /quote

 

You didn't have to answer. I know you are in a bad place and I would not have asked again.

 

Sorry.

[Muddles]

It's not because the thoughts of my dad upset me.

It's the thought of not being able to grieve and people not understanding the problems I have are anti depressant induced.

 

I feel belittled by health care professionals and certain people. I really didn't expect to feel this way on here.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Sorry you took my interest in trying to understand you story better as 'belittling'. It was not meant to be.

[Karma]

Hi Muddles

 

I'm sorry that you are suffering so.  I understand why you went to the hospital and I'm sorry that the medical professionals belittled you and that you felt humiliated by them.  The medical community doesn't seem to learn from the observation of what their patients are going through, but rather only take the so-called facts from the pharmaceutical companies. 

 

Pharmaceutical companies are going to deny withdrawals exist as long as they can.  In the rare cases they do acknowledge withdrawals exist they are going to minimize them and claim that they only occur in a minority of patients.   You can understand that if the truth about these drugs became quite clear that it would damage the profits for these major corporations and they are going to fight that as long as they can.

 

There is no question that this situation is wrong.  When can't grieve the loss of a loved one because of the effects of these drugs - that is wrong. 

 

After the appointment Dr. Healy, please let us know what he recommends.

 

Karma

[Wolfhound]

_Muddles,

_{I do hope you are feeling a tiny bit better. How about Dr. Healy, any news?}

_{I am sorry about the hospital experience ...unfortunately I have seen many similar humiliating things during my hospital stay. I felt absolutely awful many times there and I kept thinking that mental health professionals must be perfectly trained in abasing people instead of helping them. How outrageous.}

_{I am thinking of you I know what it is being so low and having a family around.}

_{When you feel up to it, let us know ...}

_{Hugs! W.}

[bubble]

thinking about you and hope you are managing...

[Muddles]

Thank you both for thinking of me. I hope you are both ok?

 

I'm not sure where I am from one day to the next at the moment.

One day I am deeply depressed and the next I feel nothing - complete adhedonia.

I'm not sure which is worse?

 

Akathasia has died down a bit apart from my legs - restless is not the word.

Husband has had to massage them a few times as they ache like mad.

Massaging actually helps.

 

I haven't been able to get out with the children this half term and struggle to come to terms with this.

I have lovely friends who have taken care of them - took them out.

But this is the worst for me - I want to take them out, I want to be bothered about what they wear and to be interested in what they are doing. They never went anywhere without their mum before. Now it's just easier for them to be away from me - away from their mother who quite simply changed overnight!!

I look at pictures and crave the love and excitement again.

My boy cried because he hurt himself earlier - I didn't flinch, felt nothing.

 

I look at mothers with their children and it breaks my heart. Can't even watch any TV because those on their are normal - they feel normal emotions and getting on with life.

 

I try to except this situation but really can't. How can anyone accept that a drug that was supposed to help has literally devestated lives like this??

[Muddles]

Hi all!

 

Just thought I would share my telephone conversation I had with a drug trial company today.

 

My husband heard that they were looking for volunteers for people who were on antidepressants but still suffered despression. Out of interest I phoned the company and they are basically trialing a new drug which is supposed 'boost' an antidepressants effectiveness. It works with SSRI's only, as it not only effects seretonin it works on other transmitters also....I presume like an SNRI or mirtaApine.

 

I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I put my views across about how antidepressant's don't do there work forever and that once this happens depression can be treatment resistant. I also expressed my concerns about antidepressant induced depression.

 

I don't think she was particularly interested, she was just looking for a guinea pig.

 

Lets just hope these dont get passed through trials. Another drug that sounds just as bad as the rest of them!

[bubble]

Dear Muddles,

 

I was sort of fighting my own battles so missed your post on the hospital experience. So sorry about it but you handled it very well and were very assertive and confident under extremely challenging circumstances. I think your own strength might come as a surprise even to you.

 

I understand how bad you feel about not being able to engage more with your children but they have a very brave mom.

 

I'm not quite sure about your signature: when in April did you drop to 12 mg? Has this change affected you in any way? I remember that beautiful window of yours, the trip with the family... and than a nasty and seems very long wave... If I remember it correctly, you hadn't felt so suicidal for some time before your husband got too concerned and you paid that visit to hospital?

 

Thanks for sharing about the call.

 

take care! 

[Muddles]

Hi Bubbles!

 

Thank you for dropping by. Sorry to hear you have been struggling lately. I have not been around on here much lately...too painful sometimes.

 

I made the drop beginning of April I think. I should make notes of dates etc but I always forget which isn't good. I plan on making another cut in a week or so.

 

Not sure how the cut effected me. At the moment I am completely numb, can't even cry. My husband is off and helping out as I am struggling to face any normality on the outside world.

 

Still waiting for dr Healy to get back to me. Everything sent off and paid for but not heard anything back. I really hope it's soon...been waiting long enough!

 

Anyways, I really hope you are getting over you recent blip and thanks again for thinking of me...means a lot.

[WinningThrough]

Hi Muddles

 

From one akathisia sufferer to another I thought I'd drop by and say hello. I see you are in the uk too! I am in Oxfordshire.

 

I've been reading through some of your thread. I'm so sorry. I just wanted to send you a hug. Akathisia is the pits.

 

Over time things will start to resolve. Never stop believing.

[Muddles]

Hi winning through!

 

It is the pits. I have a break from it at the mo - traded in for total numbness and apathy.

 

It's something I developed initially on an ssri. If I had known what it was, I never would have touched anything again!

 

I'm sorry you have to suffer it. It's something no-one should have to ever experience.

 

Oxfordshire - is that South? My geography is rubbish!

[WinningThrough]

Yeah, I got it very soon after starting my first ever ssri too. It's good that you're getting a break from it but not great that it's been replaced by something else rubbish. This shows movement though. A sign of healing, I think.

 

Oxfordshire is further south than you. Depending on where you are it's probably about 1.5/2 hours from me.

[Muddles]

West Midlands, so not far.

 

The numbness always follow's akathasia for me.

 

It kind of goes in stages - physical akathasia, mental akathasia, depression and then numbness. Very odd.

 

Healing hugs from me to you.

[bubble]

Hi Bubbles!

 

Thank you for dropping by. Sorry to hear you have been struggling lately. I have not been around on here much lately...too painful sometimes.

 

I made the drop beginning of April I think. I should make notes of dates etc but I always forget which isn't good. I plan on making another cut in a week or so.

 

Not sure how the cut effected me. At the moment I am completely numb, can't even cry. My husband is off and helping out as I am struggling to face any normality on the outside world.

 

Still waiting for dr Healy to get back to me. Everything sent off and paid for but not heard anything back. I really hope it's soon...been waiting long enough!

 

Anyways, I really hope you are getting over you recent blip and thanks again for thinking of me...means a lot.

 

Currently I'm in such mood that I see something positive wherever I turn (as much as at other times I see everything negative wherever I turn), in such spirit I hope you don't mind me saying that I see even this numbness as something positive however unpleasant it is: after all the upheavals of dreadful anxiety and extreme restlessness and agitation which put all cells in your body under extreme stress, now everything is resting and recharging. In other words, healing. After the storm, the sea is so very calm, nursing its aches, directing all its energies into healing which is happening somewhere deep inside it while the surface appears very passive and numb.

 

Can you think about what you are going through right now in this way at all? I totally understand if you can't but I find it helps me accept my passivity, lack of energy and interest.

 

The other thing which I put in bold: please update your signature. It's a great way of keeping notes of our cuts. Although you seem to have had a strong adverse reaction to ADs from the very start, most of us are here because we tried to go off the medication too abruptly. So we take coming off medication, that is tapering, extremely seriously to avoid dreadful pain which cutting the medication too much and too soon caused. Please don't underestimate this aspect of "our drugs".

 

Just update your signature with the exact date and dose so that we see how much of a cut you are making. If I could turn back the clock and if I had found this site before, I'm sure i woudln't be on these meds any more... Now we have a new chance.

 

Also we have a strong reason to advocate for longer holds between cuts. Especially if you are not sure how the cut affected you. I now see that you sort of know these dates You made a cut at the beginning of April, it was around 10 % and now after around one month you are planning another cut...

 

I'm not so good at the cutting business so I personally like to ask "the board" here what they think of my plans and this helps me to make a decision. It's just because I've been so badly hurt because of my decisions before... (Currently after the period of being a numb and aching sea, I'm the sea ruffled with a gentle and refreshing breeze