Ninabird: Effexor withdrawal?

[Ninabird]

@Greatful

Hello and happy Saturday. How are you doing today?

 

I will attempt to go back to the liquid but not until I stabilize. I wish I had asked about the proper way to switch to liquid.....🤕 No sense over crying about it now. All of my energy is being spent living life while going through increased symptoms. God has me. 😇

[Pollyjay]

How are you, Ninabird? I hope you've had a restful weekend so far.

 

Thinking of you,

 

Pollyjay

 

[Ninabird]

Hi everyone and Happy Sunday

 

Yesterday and today have been hard but a teensie bit easier than the last 5. Today my symptoms rolled in and out like a wave machine at a water park. I have had many breaks in the waves in the day. I’m hoping that’s a positive sign. Thank goodness my sleep is still doing ok. I average 7 hours a night. 
I am working very hard every day at radical acceptance. I told myself at church today, “ yup… my head feels like it’s full of glass, at least I’m in a good place if I need to pray through it!” Acceptance for me is challenging when my head is burning and splitting. I have found that stretching my shoulder and neck muscles help A LOT! 
Here is a weird symptom that I don’t know if you have had or have heard others having. 
Yesterday I had just finished mowing my lawn and I stopped to pull a small handful of weeds. After my last pull of the weed it seemed like my body was screaming to “STOP!” Go inside and rest. It was so weird. It has happened before. Some days I have to split up work, chores or errands into little bites. I’ve always been a busy and productive person. This feeling of my body shutting down after vacuuming or researching tax records on a property are so alien to me. It freaks me out. 
The other symptom is sore red eyes. Once or twice a week I have very dark circles under my eyes. My eyes which used to be bright hazel are bloodshot and look sickly. 🥺

 

[Ninabird]

4 hours ago, Pollyjay said:

 

How are you, Ninabird? I hope you've had a restful weekend so far.

 

Hi Pollyjay! 
I tried to call you twice yesterday. Your phone was busy both times. You were on my mind. 
 

How are you doing? 
 

Sat and Sunday have been a teensie bit better. You are so thoughtful. 
 

xo

[Altostrata]

Why are you taking estradiol? Did you ever take it at a different time of day? When you started it in 2016, were you taking any other drugs? Did you feel any effects from it when you started it in 2016?

 

See adverse effects https://www.drugs.com/pro/estradiol.html#s-34084-4

[Ninabird]

19 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

Why are you taking estradiol? Did you ever take it at a different time of day? When you started it in 2016, were you taking any other drugs? Did you feel any effects from it when you started it in 2016?

 

I had a hysterectomy in 2015. Went into surgical menopause. 
always took it in the morning. 
it helped w my hot flashes and mood. I was also taking Webutrin at the same time to help w menopausal symptoms. Wellbutrin didn’t really help much so tapered off over a few months. I was on a very low dose. 
Nice to hear from you. 

[Altostrata]

What is your current daily drug schedule, with dosages?

[Ninabird]

7 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What is your current daily drug schedule, with dosages?

6:30am .25mg Klonopin

7:30am 10mg Lexapro

.50mg Estradiol

12pm 30mg Duoloxetine 

6:30pm .25mg Klonopin

 

Over a week ago you suggested I move my Duoloxetine to noon. Since then I’m struggling to get through the day more than usual. I’m experiencing magnified symptoms. Head pressure and burning, anxiety, lack of motivation, buzzing in my body, sore eyes… they come and go throughout the day. I do have periods in every day where my body and mind are quiet. I am laughing. The fear of showing properties, running errands are things I’m fighting very hard to get through. Any clue why I am having a harder time? 

[Ninabird]

@Ariel @Moonpie @Greatful @Chlo

@Frogie

 

It has been a rough few weeks. Getting through ea day has been a battle. I’m trying to figure out why it seems I’m having increased symptoms. 
lots of burning in my head, anxiety, sore eyes, lack of motivation, sadness, pressure in head, fear, some DR/DP. 
I attempted to switch from pill form to liquid lex to resume my taper but did a direct switch before reading about slowly tapering to liquid. Then the next week spacing out my Lexapro and Duoloxetine doses. I did an hour ahead a day for 5 days until I got to my moon dose. Since then I’ve been a mess. 
I did notice yesterday that the constant ringing in my ears had eased up. They were ringing only every so often. Hoping that’s a positive sign. 
I desperately want to resume my Lexapro taper but I know I can’t until I stabilise. Stabilise.  Now that’s a enigma. I guess what it means is when I can move through the day without unbearable symptoms? 
Today I woke w a headache and a sadness in my heart. I’ve been feeling this way for over a year. I’m good at pushing through every day and maintaining a sense of positivity. Lately I’m feeling deflated and scared. Scared that I’m stuck like this. A month ago I could end my day and think tomorrow will be better. Now it seems that I go to bed thinking how can I get through tomorrow? 
min not a doom and gloom kind of person. I’m not. Lately I am feeling like I’m running out of gas. 

[Ariel]

@Ninabird

40 minutes ago, Ninabird said:

Stabilise.  Now that’s a enigma. I guess what it means is when I can move through the day without unbearable symptoms? 

 

Hi there. 

I'm guessing you've read the posts about WDnormal, etc. 

It seems there's some variation in how people interpret terms like "wave", "window", "stability", "WD normal". I know we all use those and toss them around kinda casually as if we all know what each other are talking about, but sometimes it's useful to think about it and figure out what each of those means to you personally. 

Because my understanding of those terms is based on my own embodied experience, I can't really define them for you beyond the common definitions we use on SA. But I can share with you how I think of those terms when I use them to describe my own experiences in recovery; keep in mind this is my personal subjective interpretation, I'm not representing SA's or anyone else's viewpoint.

 

wave - prolonged period of time (days, weeks, months) characterized by a fairly sudden marked increase in number of symptoms as well as intensity; for me when i think of being in a wave it is always a chunk of time, never a matter of hours here and there.

 

window - same principle as wave, it's a block of time (days, weeks, months) characterized by a sudden decrease/disappearance of symptoms and feeling clearly, recognizably much better than at any other time in WD; as close as possible to feeling like one isn't ill, it feels like a reminder of what is feels like to be well again. to me, a window is more than just a few hours of experiencing relief from active symptoms. 

 

WDnormal - a baseline level of day-to-day WD cr*ppiness. No dramatic fluctuations in symptoms either way, no windows, no waves. just more or less the same revolving door of difficulties and discomforts every day, with minor differences and changes, but no massive surprises. the WDnormal baseline is what we often return to after a wave or after a window, and this baseline gradually, slowly improves as we heal. so that when we look back a year it becomes clear that our baseline has improved, even though we might get hit with a gnarly wave that feels just as awful or worse than any other, it's still apparent that our baseline is improving. personally i have not had the experience of my baseline getting worse over time (although i can only speak for myself). 

 

stability - to me this has a lot in common with WDnormal. stability is not necessarily how it feels in the moment, like we may not feel stable, but it's kind of like if you take a step back and assess the greater pattern over a period of a few months -- does it seem like your body has a more or less steady "range" of symptom variability? without big waves or big windows, and where the minor fluctuations sort of average out to a vaguely predictable level of daily functioning. that's how i think of stability.

so you've got your WDnormal with its gradually improving baseline; and within WDnormal you may have a certain stability, i.e. somewhat predictable level of functioning. WDnormal will be gradually improving over the years and that baseline will be rising, and stability is an indicator of your overall average experience within any given WDnormal bracket.

theoretically, if a wave or a window lasts long enough, one might find some stability within that, too; although by their very nature, waves and windows are more volatile in how quickly they come and go and how intense they are while they last. 

 

if you're in a place where you feel fairly confident, okay on a daily basis i'm able to reliably perform XYZ tasks and manage ABC duties, and here's the boundary beyond which I would probably not be able to do more -- if you have a sense of that daily average and a track record of maintaining that -- despite whatever unpleasant symptoms and fluctuations you may be getting along the way -- that's a kind of stability. stability doesn't necessarily feel good, it's more a kind of range of operation that you can more or less count on (unless you suddenly get hit by a significant wave or window). 

 

This is how I've thought about it in my case. I've read brassmonkey's excellent essay on the topic (in particular chapters 5 and 11) and this is how I can best relate to what he describes there.

 

How does it sound to you? and to other people? 

 

[Ariel]

Excerpts from brassmonkey's  Are We There Yet? How Long Is Withdrawal Going To Take?

 

 

Stability

(5)

 

Let’s start with one of the very basic concepts that we talk about a lot.  How long does it take to stabilize? Stability is the state where symptoms are relatively the same from day to day without having any major swings for the better or worse. It is an established pattern that has been present for a good length of time. Stability is not the absence of symptoms or feeling good, it's when your symptom pattern is tolerable and predictable.

 

 

 

WDnormal

(11)

 

If you are recovering from withdrawal, WDnormal is the place you are when you're not feeling good, but you're not feeling bad, sort of a rolling average of the past couple of months of windows and waves.  Watching the level of WDnormal is a good indicator that things are improving.  Over time you should be seeing a raising of the standard for WDnormal.  Like how you're feeling now is better than say six months ago. It changes very slowly but is a very good indicator.

 

 WDNormal is a type of stability, It is feeling a predictable way day after day with no big swings to the better or worse, and is unique to each individual

 

If you are managing withdrawal symptoms while you are tapering, paying attention to your WDnormal is very important.  It is an aspect of listening to your body.  When a person makes a drop in dose, there may be a corresponding increase in the WD symptoms over the next few days.  These symptoms should resolve themselves over the following several weeks and return to WDNormal.  After a reduction in dose and the symptoms have resolved to WDnormal the person should then wait a couple of more weeks to let things really settle down (there are a lot of little unfelt changes still going on) before considering doing their next drop.

 

During that waiting time people may think that they're not doing anything and want to get on with it.  When in fact doing nothing is very proactive.  It's those little unfelt things that need to be finished before the next step can be taken.  It's letting the glue harden, the paint dry, the cement cure.  The things that need to be complete before the path is safe to walk on again.

[Ninabird]

@Ariel

Thank you. I have read Brassmonkey WD/normal. Perhaps I’m having a hard time deciphering it because of being in WD and my thought process being handicapped right now. 
You did a pretty good job exposing it further. Thank you for your time in explaining. It makes a little more sense to me. 
 

NB

[Ariel]

1 hour ago, Ninabird said:

I desperately want to resume my Lexapro taper but I know I can’t until I stabilise. Stabilise.  Now that’s a enigma. I guess what it means is when I can move through the day without unbearable symptoms? 
Today I woke w a headache and a sadness in my heart. I’ve been feeling this way for over a year. I’m good at pushing through every day and maintaining a sense of positivity. Lately I’m feeling deflated and scared. Scared that I’m stuck like this. A month ago I could end my day and think tomorrow will be better. Now it seems that I go to bed thinking how can I get through tomorrow? 
min not a doom and gloom kind of person. I’m not. Lately I am feeling like I’m running out of gas. 

 

Personally I find it difficult to pay attention to the little-picture of symptom tracking and the bigger-picture of stability at the same time. I have a hard time zooming in and out between those. Symptom tracking has its place when working out dosages, times, patterns of possible adverse/side effects and WD activation from supplements, etc. Once those patterns and interplay becomes apparent and one figures out, okay this is how I'm going to take my meds for the time being, it can sometimes be helpful to take a step back and look at the bigger picture of, how have these past number of weeks been, on average, in terms of living my life? That's when you can start to try to get a feel for what your average might be, and see whether there's a certain stability day-to-day when looking at it from a distance. 

[Ariel]

1 minute ago, Ninabird said:

Thank you. I have read Brassmonkey WD/normal. Perhaps I’m having a hard time deciphering it because of being in WD and my thought process being handicapped right now. 
You did a pretty good job exposing it further. Thank you for your time in explaining. It makes a little more sense to me. 

No worries, Ninabird. It can be slippery to figure out, especially because "stability" sounds pretty good when we're feeling really unstable! But actually "stability" doesn't necessarily mean we're feeling that great, so it can be a little counterintuitive. 

Basically, do you feel more or less the same level of hardship day-to-day, when everything is averaged out? Are you able to perform more or less the same level of functioning day-to-day, with no big surprises? If so, that's relative stability for now. If not, like if you have big shifts day to day between being able to work and not being able to work, or being able to get out of bed and not being able to get out of bed at all, then that's not stability yet. 

(in my interpretation)

[Ariel]

@Ninabird

A gorgeous bright rainbow just appeared outside my window!

Sharing it with you <3

[Altostrata]

@Ninabird My guess is the escitalopram and duloxetine combination is excessive.

 

Please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

[Ninabird]

16 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

@Ninabird My guess is the escitalopram and duloxetine combination is excessive.

 

Please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

Hi @Altostrata

i started logging today.
 

I did the log you two weeks ago that’s when you suggested moving the doses apart. I’ll log with the same format as the last. 
 

It would be nice to figure out what’s going on.

 

 

[Ninabird]

@Altostrata

My PNP and I are hoping to resume the Lexapro taper as soon as I stabilise. My question for you is how do I stabilise when I feel like cr@p everyday? 

[Altostrata]

If your symptoms are caused by a drug, you will feel better when the drug is reduced.

 

There was no sense in increasing your Cymbalta to 30mg in February.

[Ninabird]

1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

If your symptoms are caused by a drug, you will feel better when the drug is reduced.

 

There was no sense in increasing your Cymbalta to 30mg in February.

Altostrata, 

I was following my Psychiatrists care plan. I take full responsibility for taking the medication. I have since left that office and am working w a PNP who is caring and wanting to help me. I feel safe in her hands. She is open to me being on this site and getting feedback from mods. 
 

As soon as I’m in WD normal ( if that is even possible) my PNP wants to resume the Lexapro taper. 

[Altostrata]

Why do you want to reduce Lexapro and not Cymbalta?

[Ninabird]

2 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Why do you want to reduce Lexapro and not Cymbalta?

I was on Lexapro first and didn’t do well on it. I had a lot of break through anxiety, trouble sitting still, hard to concentrate. I didn’t tolerate it well. The more breakthrough anxiety the higher my Psychiatrist raised the dose. He had me on 25mg at one point and that’s when I started to spiral. 
 

 

[Greatful]

@Ninabird

My heart goes out to you. I hope you will be able to switch over to liquid..  It will make it so much easier to taper.  You will have to be patient to any bumps that come up with the switch over...You may even have different manufacture's from pill to liquid...this may cause some up tick in symptoms too.  Not to scare you, just to get yourself prepared so that you can hold fast to the plan.  The way I tried to look at it was I felt awful anyway so what's the difference...This whole thing is traumatic.  If we didn't have any PTSD before WD, we do now 🙄

 

Wow I am so impressed with your new doctor- she is open to SA and to their advise...Maybe there is hope with the medical field and the world finally coming up to speed about these drugs.  

Hang in there. ❤️

 

 

[Ninabird]

1 hour ago, Greatful said:

Wow I am so impressed with your new doctor- she is open to SA and to their advise...Maybe there is hope with the medical field and the world finally coming up to speed about these drugs.  

Hang in there. ❤️

I am pretty happy with my PNP. She is beyond supportive and caring. It helps so much!

[Ninabird]

@Altostrata

6/7/22

6:30 Woke w anxiety (4) took .25mg Klonopin

7:30 took .50mg Estradiol and 10mg Lexapro (2 hard boiled eggs)

8-10am feeling blah, headache,brain tingles

11 anxiety (3) ears ringing (5)

12pm 30mg Duoloxetine & drank green smoothie

Head burning, ears ringing, anxiety(4), sweating hands

11-3pm same symptoms ebb and flow

3:30 calm, burning fades

4 calm

5 mild headache

6 anxiety(3) 

6:30 klonopin .25mg

7 anxiety (3)

8 anxiety (1)

9 ok 

10 bedtime

[Ninabird]

@getofflex

 

Hi there. I just read a post that you commented on unblocktheplanet. You suggested that he/she wait 6 months before tapering another drug to give the brain/body a chance to heal. That statement deflated. me. Does that mean I should wait that long as well? I have been pulled on and off different AD's in the last 2 years. I want to start resuming the Lexapro as soon as I feel mentally prepared. The last few weeks have been exceptionally difficult. The last two days have been a tad bit easier. Thoughts?

[getofflex]

Whenever someone has done a lot of drug changes, (doses, off or on drugs, drug form, etc) I almost always suggest they wait at least a few months or longer before starting another taper.  It looks like you have been on quite a lot of drug changes as well. I'm especially looking at your reduction of Lexapro from 25 to 10 mg in just 3 weeks.  That is quite a steep taper.  Then you started Effexor, but then stopped that and went on Cymbalta, then from pill to liquid, and back to pill form of Lexapro.  

 

The important thing is to look at the big picture.  When a person tapers too soon, after making this many drug changes, in the long run, it will actually take longer to get off the drugs, and recovery from WD, than if they take their time, and give their system a break for a while.  Please read this post to understand why.  While this post is about tapering too fast, the concepts also apply to starting another taper too soon.  

 

Too Fast or Two Frequent Tapering

 

If you taper before your nervous system is fully recovered from previous drug changes, you put yourself at risk of throwing your nervous system into chaos, and this can take months to even years to recover from.  

 

This post will explain just how complex the healing process is: 

 

What is Happening in Your Brain? (Explains why recovery takes so long)

[Altostrata]

From your symptom pattern, it appears you are taking too much duloxetine. It could be you are having adverse effects from the Lexapro as well.

 

Rather than get into the complexities of tapering Lexapro, with which you've had difficulty, and because you started 30mg duloxetine relatively recently, I would start reducing duloxetine by taking out one bead per day for the first week, 2 beads for the second week, 3 beads for the third week, etc. Do this until you have emptied the 30mg capsule by 1/3, then you'd be taking 20mg. 

 

I would weigh the capsules to estimate what 20mg weighs, so you can stop tapering there. Your pharmacist may be able to do this for you. I would ask my pharmacist to weight 6 full 30mg duloxetine capsules, then divide the result by 6 to get an average weight for a 30mg capsule (shell included). Make a note of this. You'll have to ask the pharmacist to weigh a partial capsule when you think you've taken enough out.

[Ninabird]

@Altostrata

and when I get to 20mg of Duoloxetine, what do I do w the Lexapro? 

[Ninabird]

@Altostrata

and when should I taper? I’m not stabilised yet. 

[Altostrata]

You're not "stabilized" because you're experiencing adverse effects from TOO MUCH DRUGS. If you reduce duloxetine, you may feel somewhat better.

 

If you reduce duloxetine, you will be tapering your drugs. If you feel better on less duloxetine, you can resume tapering Lexapro.

 

Is your goal to go off only Lexapro? Are you in the middle of a drug switch to duloxetine instead of Lexapro?

[Ninabird]

@Altostrata

my goal was to taper off Lexapro then Klonopin. Wait a while then go off Duoloxetine. 

[Ninabird]

@Altostrata

i was having negative reactions to the Lexapro. 

[Altostrata]

You are free to do it your way, @Ninabird

 

Confer about these topics with your prescriber:

 
Tips for tapering off escitalopram (Lexapro)

Tips for tapering off duloxetine (Cymbalta)

 

You and your prescriber should be able to resolve the logistics. Please do not tag me for tapering advice.

[Ninabird]

8 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

You are free to do it your way,

 

Did I upset you in some way? You went from giving me guidance to dismissing me and asking me not to tag you for tapering advice. 
 

You asked me if I was in the middle of crossing over from Lexapro to Duoloxetine. My answer was yes because Lexapro was giving me terrible problems and was explaining what the agenda for tapering once I was stabilised.

 

You suspect the Duoloxetine is causing problems and I plan on conferring w my PNP about your suggestion to lower the Duoloxetine as you suggest and to rethink our original care plan and to follow your instructions. 
 

This process is beyond painful as you are well aware. Reading your response was a shock and hurtful. I’m sure you have given advice to hundred if not thousands over the years. This is my first time. I am terrified and am in search of help. I appreciate your time, your guidance. If you feel I was dismissing your advice you are incorrect. 
 

Respectfully, 

 

NB
 

 

 

 

[Ariel]

@Ninabird

 

I appreciate that you may be dealing with a lot of information, as well as situational overwhelm compounded by the experience of a variety of unpleasant symptoms. Making decisions about one's health care can be challenging even when one is not actively distracted/impacted by anxiety, insomnia, tinnitus, etc. 

 

Because the symptoms can feel so unpleasant, this can engender a sense of urgency about needing to come to a conclusion. In addition, anxiety and neuro-emotion can exacerbate the experience of being in a state of emergency, leading to emotional spirals and rumination. 

 

Please breathe. It's okay. Any responsible tapering strategy is playing the long game. You have time to figure this out.

 

I know it can feel difficult to be patient in the face of significant pain and discomfort. We can feel very impatient because we are suffering and just want it to stop. This is when we need to practice patience more than ever. 

 

The more time you give yourself to breathe, take a step back, give yourself some space around any Decision Making -- the better you'll be able to listen, consider, and process. A state of high stress and perceived emergency is not the most constructive place to be for processing information, planning, coordinating, choosing next steps.

 

Altostrata and getofflex have spent time looking over your drug history and symptoms tracking. They've done their best to analyze the data provided and based on analysis combined with extensive knowledge and experience, they've made some clear recommendations. 

 

At the same time, you are working with a PNP whom you trust. It sounds like the PNP's recommendation to date differs from what the SA moderators would suggest.

 

That is a potentially confusing situation for you -- contradictory input -- which requires your attention and careful consideration. At some point you will have a choice to make -- whose advice to follow, if anyone's. How you proceed is up to you, and given the inevitable unknowns and uncertainty, combined with your past experience to date, I understand if the responsibility of that choice might feel daunting. 

 

I realize this might ring weird in your ears, as things feel rough right now, but please try to remember there is no rush. 

 

I cannot speak for anyone else's experience, but I imagine it might feel frustrating for an unpaid volunteer moderator to invest significant time and energy into making a well-informed recommendation, only to perhaps get the impression that a member is more likely to rely on paid counsel elsewhere. I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just trying to point out that internet peer support has its limits. In order to offer their generous support, moderators must be mindful of their boundaries so as not to burn out; by taking care of themselves in this way, they are able to continue helping many people. Sometimes what this looks like in practice is that there is a certain time/energy budget a moderator might allocate to each case, and beyond that they might have to move on.

 

We can never know what is going on in anyone else's mind, or what else they may have on their plate. I would encourage you not to take anything personally. I say this from a place of compassion and recognition, as I am all too familiar with the phenomenon of getting WD-triggered. I cannot tell you how many times over the past years my hypersensitive, hypervigilant brain and nervous system have accelerated into severe distress triggered by simple exchanges and brief encounters. It's a thing. 

 

You've got a lot going on. Please take gentle care of yourself. Maybe step away from the computer for a few days, give the symptom tracking a rest for a while. Zoom out from the details of what you're feeling hour by hour and see if you can get a feel for what it's like living day by day, week by week. Try to get your bearings in a bigger picture kind of way.

 

Sometimes it's helpful to give ourselves a break from the endless, How am I doing? How am I feeling? How about now? How about now?  ongoing assessment running commentary; it serves its purpose but can be exhausting in the long run. You've been diligently tracking symptoms for weeks now, and you've done a good job paying attention to the minutiae, with your head down and your nose to the ground. Maybe now it's time to take a break from the note-taking, lift your head up, fix your gaze on the horizon. Let the symptoms play out in the background while you live your life in the foreground, as you are already so brave at doing. 

 

Whatever you eventually decide, you have a long road ahead. My impression is that you know this and are accepting it. 

You're working really hard. Give yourself credit, and give yourself a break. 

Take your time resting, replenishing, recuperating from all the many drug changes your body has been through in the past year and a half. 

 

Deciding to hold and to not make any further decisions for the time being is also a very important decision one might make. I wonder whether deciding to hold and temporarily hold off on further decisions might be like a little vacation for your mind right now. It can be really exhausting to keep thinking and thinking and thinking about What To Do. What would it feel like to say, I'm going to give myself X amount of time to not think about What To Do and to Not Make Any New Decisions  -- ? I don't know about you but for me, even just typing that I feel relieved!

 

Sending you a hug, Ninabird.