Apathy, anhedonia, emotional numbness, emotional anesthesia

[Kat66]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:06 PM, brassmonkey said:

Emotional Blunting, which is often referred to here as Anhedonia, is nor of the most common symptoms of ADWD. 

 

 

@brassmonkey just to clarify, anhedonia is NOT a symptom of WD? If that's the case, why do I have it so intensely when I'm in a wave?

[Kat66]

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Lower your expectations, but do things that are even a little bit enjoyable. Keep doing them.

@JesusSavemefromWD @Nic123 Very very true. Difficult to put into practice, but very very true. My 'neuro depression' is telling me I'm useless for not achieving stuff during the day but I find if I consciously lower my expectations and see every little thing I achieve, no matter how small, as a 'win'....it does relieve the pain.

[brassmonkey]

The spell checker for this site and I have a real love/hate relationship. it is meant to read "ONE of the most common symptoms". I'll get the original corrected. Thank you for pointing it out.

[Altostrata]

People call it anhedonia, which is a psychiatry term for people with "normal" anhedonia.

 

But withdrawal takes it a step further. We call it emotional anesthesia. 

[Nic123]

To me it feels more than just anhedonia, as I can still enjoy doing something in a way. It’s more this mental “deadness/flatness” constantly and what feels like very very little brain inactivity not taking in stimuli from my environment properly. Before all this I would constantly feel vibes and emotions very strongly and it was what guided me in life. Now there is no feeling, emotion, complexity, richness to anything. The world is a flat barren place now. It does seem to vary in intensity but never leaves the emotionless feeling. I worry my brain has rewired itself as this as my new normal and I will be like this permanently. I also considered maybe I have a brain tumour. My memory is very very different like I can’t access it at all, I assume this is because with very little emotion memories don’t work the same way as they rely heavily on emotions for recalling them. I did used to have this weird numb feeling at the front of my head which seems to be gone or not noticeable anymore though

[JesusSavemefromWD]

3 hours ago, Kat66 said:

@JesusSavemefromWD I am getting windows now ( a few months on) which I wasn't getting initially upon reinstatement - but when I go back to a wave, it's just as bad as at the start. how are you feeling?

I am not doing well at all, hard to believe I am still in heal a year out from just so short time on Zoloft. Glad ur getting windows, take care 

[Kat66]

14 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

The spell checker for this site and I have a real love/hate relationship. it is meant to read "ONE of the most common symptoms". I'll get the original corrected. Thank you for pointing it out.

Thanks @brassmonkey, and no problem 

[Kat66]

13 hours ago, Altostrata said:

People call it anhedonia, which is a psychiatry term for people with "normal" anhedonia.

 

But withdrawal takes it a step further. We call it emotional anesthesia. 

Which presumably means it’s worse than ‘normal’ anhedonia? Just like neuro depression is worse than normal depression etc?

[Kat66]

18 hours ago, JesusSavemefromWD said:

I am not doing well at all, hard to believe I am still in heal a year out from just so short time on Zoloft. Glad ur getting windows, take care 

Do you get anything that resembles a window ever?

[JesusSavemefromWD]

3 hours ago, Kat66 said:

Do you get anything that resembles a window ever?

I meant to say “ I am still in “hell”, not “heal”. No I don’t get windows, I have only seen minor improvement over time, but I am overall still bedridden due to severe DP and chemical fear. Are u getting windows?

[Kat66]

3 hours ago, JesusSavemefromWD said:

I meant to say “ I am still in “hell”, not “heal”. No I don’t get windows, I have only seen minor improvement over time, but I am overall still bedridden due to severe DP and chemical fear. Are u getting windows?

I do get windows. The cruel thing is they don’t last. It’s like being constantly banged up in a cell then released, then banged up then released etc etc. I’m so sorry you’re bedridden. What is chemical fear, like a neuro emotion? 

[Colonial]

13 hours ago, Kat66 said:

Which presumably means it’s worse than ‘normal’ anhedonia? Just like neuro depression is worse than normal depression etc?

 

What I have seen in reports is not that it is necessarily "worse", but it can be a bit different, and it's more of why it comes or how it manifests with other symptoms. It may come at predetermined times regardless of how well your life may be going, where "regular" depression might normally follow a bad week or repeated negative thought patterns, as you see with certain members who never have anything positive to say and only report the worst case scenario about their life and their situation.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Colonial

[Nic123]

I just know for me before I ever took ssri’s when I was depressed it was always about a situation etc and it just felt different. Maybe it was never true depression and just a low mood but I still had motivation and anxiety for things but I could absolutely still enjoy things and find things stimulating. Couple months after getting off escitalpram though and it was like I became brain dead and like my brain wouldn’t respond to any external stimuli, I noticed the numbing while taking them but it only amplified once I got off them. I never once in my life had experienced anhedonia or loss of emotions with zero anxiety so I knew it had something to do with the ssri’s I took for a few months. I don’t know if I have anhedonia or just emotional numbness as I can still slightly enjoy doing things sometimes. But it’s just the complete nothingness and soulless feeling inside and inability to be stimulated from anything that I never had before ssri’s

[Colonial]

The soul-lessness can be disturbing, I have had to endure it from time to time, but on a positive note I found the not feeling "anything", good or bad, can in some times be a benefit, especially in particular circumstances or individuals who live FOR pleasure or feeling good at a very core level, even if they do not realize how much of a hedonistic perspective (from a very pure definition, not an emotional extreme one) guides their actions. 

 

Many people, without knowing it, do tend to live their life around feeling good instead of "doing" or "being" good in their daily plans and actions, and this can escape their conscious reality.  One does not need to feel good in order to know what one needs to do to fulfill their daily duties.  

 

When I went through this for a few months and realized I couldn't feel good or the slightest "reward" for a good deed? It was wonderful and turned out to be a blessing in so many ways going forward, since until that happened, I was not able to see how much of my actions (and I see it in others, too, it's a basic premise of out subconscious rewarding ourselves)  we predicated in doing something in a way to not only to get the job done but to also get the emotional reward of feeling good.

 

I found out just how much time and energy goes into not just living, but trying to maneuver a "positive feeling" for the action.  I saw how time consuming and emotionally draining it was, tying to "arrange" the day to assure that "Happy ending"!  I saw where most of us go wrong is we forget it is enough to do the right thing simply because it is the right thing, and that alone is it's own reward.  We are living in a world that tells us unless we are constantly happy or having a good vibe than something is wrong.  In reality, nothing can be further from the truth.  We ironically depress or upset ourselves if we don't have that predetermined outcome, and actually can make ourselves worse by trying to "force" that upon ourselves.

 

In truth?  It really is irrelevant for the most part if we feel "good" going through our lives on a daily basis, it's not our reason for living, to expect that working or taking care of the kids or shopping is always going to be "fun" or exciting or a joyous occasion.  In fact, the less I "attempted" to feel good going through my day, the happier I actually was, because I was not longer "failing" the unrealistic test society tells us is important.  If I got my jobs done, that was all that was necessary, and in many cases, it can actually be a sign of "Moral Weakness" if a person is distraught because they don't "feel" good.  As the saying goes: "Suck it up, Buttercup!" 

 

As long as the negative aspects of WD aren't oppressing a person, such as severe depression or physical or neurological symptoms are absent, the lack of pleasure is the last of a person's worries.  That seems odd or maybe even cruel at first, but over time you realize the truth of it, and it's actually very liberating because your not setting yourself up for failure, telling yourself if you don't feel happy or good you should be upset or worried.  You find yourselves now doing things for their legitimate needs or Moral Imperatives, and not for whatever emotional reward you can "Prostitute" out of the situation.

 

In short, you find yourself doing things and living life for the RIGHT reasons, not whatever emotional reward your trying to manipulate.  Watching others do this now it see it's no wonder how unhappy and exhausted they re emotionally every day, trying to "force" an emotion or happy feeling on to every event or day of their life.  It' much healthier overall, physically as well, when your not trying to tax yourself into feeling good all of the time but just appreciating it when it happens, and if ppl reevaluated what "should" be enough to make then happy, lower their unrealistic expectations on what positive emotional feelings the always need, they end up happier for the little things than they used to be for the supposed big things. It's enough not to feel bad.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Colonial

[JesusSavemefromWD]

3 hours ago, Kat66 said:

I do get windows. The cruel thing is they don’t last. It’s like being constantly banged up in a cell then released, then banged up then released etc etc. I’m so sorry you’re bedridden. What is chemical fear, like a neuro emotion? 

If ur getting windows have no doubt u will heal. Yes it’s neuro emotion, u constantly feel fear and terror for no reason… it isn’t linked with a thought or a feeling… it’s just there in ur soul and mind … fear fear fear non stop, I ve seen quite a few people going off sertraline having this unreasonable constant fear. For me it only goes away when I sleep. It’s pure torture…

[Altostrata]

From my experience, withdrawal-induced emotional anesthesia is more intense and complete than emotional numbing while taking a drug (in my case, paroxetine) or mere "depression".

[Jnthnslo]

On 11/3/2021 at 4:30 PM, Nic123 said:

To me it feels more than just anhedonia, as I can still enjoy doing something in a way. It’s more this mental “deadness/flatness” constantly and what feels like very very little brain inactivity not taking in stimuli from my environment properly. Before all this I would constantly feel vibes and emotions very strongly and it was what guided me in life. Now there is no feeling, emotion, complexity, richness to anything. The world is a flat barren place now. It does seem to vary in intensity but never leaves the emotionless feeling. I worry my brain has rewired itself as this as my new normal and I will be like this permanently. I also considered maybe I have a brain tumour. My memory is very very different like I can’t access it at all, I assume this is because with very little emotion memories don’t work the same way as they rely heavily on emotions for recalling them. I did used to have this weird numb feeling at the front of my head which seems to be gone or not noticeable anymore though

 

@Nic123. I also seem to be experiencing and relate to what you are describing. Unfortunately I've just started out with these issues a few weeks ago. I have had that numb feeling on the front side of my head. It's not quite a headache but just an odd numbness. It seems to correspond with the intensity of the emotionless feeling where when I am feeling severely blank, the head numbness is worse. 

 

I can relate to the lack of emotion as well.  I use to suffer from anxiety disorder from I guess being too emotional. I don't get anxious anymore because my emotions are gone. The first two weeks it was almost constant but I would go through periods of a few hours in length that were almost unbearable. It was almost like I could do almost anything and not react. 

 

I will say that I am starting to experience windows. A few mornings I will wake up and have a returned of some anxiety (at this point I welcome it because it means I'm having some emotion back). There will be good days when I feel somewhat normal but randomly the emotionless state will come back.  I'm hoping I'm noticing a trend where the better days are getting longer. 

 

I also notice that stress is almost guaranteed to put me back into the emotionless state.  I can be doing well but experience something stressful and go through that intense feeling of nothing. It has been very frustrating but at least I know that the worst of it goes and comes and I can still find some pleasure. That's the hope I'm holding on to.  It still amazes me that taking the medication for only 4 days was long enough to cause this. 

[Nic123]

7 hours ago, Jnthnslo said:

I use to suffer from anxiety disorder from I guess being too emotional. I don't get anxious anymore because my emotions are gone.

I truly wish I had anxiety again. It’s normal to have some level of anxiety. But without it I’m left with zero motivation for things that NEED doing. Like you said with the stress I think your right if something bads going bads going on we seem to numb even more again without even realising it. I got diagnosed with a heart condition recently which does heal but it’s quite severe and im noticing I’ve been extremely numb lately because of it.

[Kat66]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:03 AM, JesusSavemefromWD said:

If ur getting windows have no doubt u will heal. Yes it’s neuro emotion, u constantly feel fear and terror for no reason… it isn’t linked with a thought or a feeling… it’s just there in ur soul and mind … fear fear fear non stop, I ve seen quite a few people going off sertraline having this unreasonable constant fear. For me it only goes away when I sleep. It’s pure torture…

Yes, I can relate to the pure fear - it dominates everything.

[Nic123]

I’m starting to notice a pattern here. It seems every 2 weeks or so I go through a major depression/anhedonic episode for a while even going by my post history it seems I come back here every few weeks or so during that period. Then come out of it still operating at 30% or so but better then I was before. I’ve heard of waves and windows but the “windows” still feel bad and terrible just not as bad as the really low periods where just getting up is hard work and where I feel complete brain numbness.

I’ve been in a terribly low period for the past few weeks since I’ve been diagnosed with a heart condition called myocarditis from the Pfizer vaccine. I think I’m done 

 

any ideas?

[Colonial]

20 hours ago, Nic123 said:

I’ve heard of waves and windows but the “windows” still feel bad and terrible just not as bad as the really low periods where just getting up is hard work and where I feel complete brain numbness.

I’ve been in a terribly low period for the past few weeks since I’ve been diagnosed with a heart condition called myocarditis from the Pfizer vaccine. I think I’m done 

 

any ideas?

 

The heart  will make it hard to function physically.

Heart failure-damage mimics chronic fatigue syndrome in many ways.

Add that to whatever WD or adverse reaction your still having.

Hopfully since Your government is "mandating" the shots you will have access to a Cardiologist.

[sacredohana]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:46 AM, Colonial said:

The soul-lessness can be disturbing, I have had to endure it from time to time, but on a positive note I found the not feeling "anything", good or bad, can in some times be a benefit, especially in particular circumstances or individuals who live FOR pleasure or feeling good at a very core level, even if they do not realize how much of a hedonistic perspective (from a very pure definition, not an emotional extreme one) guides their actions. 

 

Many people, without knowing it, do tend to live their life around feeling good instead of "doing" or "being" good in their daily plans and actions, and this can escape their conscious reality.  One does not need to feel good in order to know what one needs to do to fulfill their daily duties.  

 

When I went through this for a few months and realized I couldn't feel good or the slightest "reward" for a good deed? It was wonderful and turned out to be a blessing in so many ways going forward, since until that happened, I was not able to see how much of my actions (and I see it in others, too, it's a basic premise of out subconscious rewarding ourselves)  we predicated in doing something in a way to not only to get the job done but to also get the emotional reward of feeling good.

 

I found out just how much time and energy goes into not just living, but trying to maneuver a "positive feeling" for the action.  I saw how time consuming and emotionally draining it was, tying to "arrange" the day to assure that "Happy ending"!  I saw where most of us go wrong is we forget it is enough to do the right thing simply because it is the right thing, and that alone is it's own reward.  We are living in a world that tells us unless we are constantly happy or having a good vibe than something is wrong.  In reality, nothing can be further from the truth.  We ironically depress or upset ourselves if we don't have that predetermined outcome, and actually can make ourselves worse by trying to "force" that upon ourselves.

 

In truth?  It really is irrelevant for the most part if we feel "good" going through our lives on a daily basis, it's not our reason for living, to expect that working or taking care of the kids or shopping is always going to be "fun" or exciting or a joyous occasion.  In fact, the less I "attempted" to feel good going through my day, the happier I actually was, because I was not longer "failing" the unrealistic test society tells us is important.  If I got my jobs done, that was all that was necessary, and in many cases, it can actually be a sign of "Moral Weakness" if a person is distraught because they don't "feel" good.  As the saying goes: "Suck it up, Buttercup!" 

 

As long as the negative aspects of WD aren't oppressing a person, such as severe depression or physical or neurological symptoms are absent, the lack of pleasure is the last of a person's worries.  That seems odd or maybe even cruel at first, but over time you realize the truth of it, and it's actually very liberating because your not setting yourself up for failure, telling yourself if you don't feel happy or good you should be upset or worried.  You find yourselves now doing things for their legitimate needs or Moral Imperatives, and not for whatever emotional reward you can "Prostitute" out of the situation.

 

In short, you find yourself doing things and living life for the RIGHT reasons, not whatever emotional reward your trying to manipulate.  Watching others do this now it see it's no wonder how unhappy and exhausted they re emotionally every day, trying to "force" an emotion or happy feeling on to every event or day of their life.  It' much healthier overall, physically as well, when your not trying to tax yourself into feeling good all of the time but just appreciating it when it happens, and if ppl reevaluated what "should" be enough to make then happy, lower their unrealistic expectations on what positive emotional feelings the always need, they end up happier for the little things than they used to be for the supposed big things. It's enough not to feel bad.

@Colonial Wow! This is very profound and quite a game changer. Thank you for articulating this so clearly. I see myself and my efforts towards feeling good exactly as you have described. Worth reading and re-reading.

[Colonial]

@sacredohana Your very welcome.

 

I think this "push" to medicate people is part of an existential despair that came along with the "feel good" societies of the last 100 years.  Even since the industrial revolution, we all do have extra time on our hands in a way, as up until then My Ancestors were literally working 14 hours a day 6 days a week for 9 months and then sitting inside for 3 months trying to survive the winter. People in different parts of the world had different obstacles to physical survival but the point was the same.  We have lost a great deal of understanding on what is important in life as we all grown up in Our own particular "bubbles" of hedonistic existence. We have managed to "Overdose" on feeling good and then when that isn't there, we think we've lost something when your in reality just back to baseline normal. But instead of understanding what that Existential Despair is, a chance to grow and learn the truth of Ourselves and others, the powers that be decided everyone needed to be drugged into not felling anything.

[Jnthnslo]

Does anyone else go through short periods where the emotional anesthesia becomes pretty extreme? So far, my emotional anesthesia has not gone away at all but there are periods where it is less intense.  For example, I had a few days where I was able to genuinely laugh. I'm back out of that good period but at least I know it is still in me somewhere. My typical state is pretty numb right now but occasionally I have periods of extreme numbness where it feels like I don't feel anything at all. It feels like I could do anything and not have a reaction. The only thing I do "feel" during these states is extreme irritability and anger which is very uncharacteristic for me. Luckily it only last for a few hours at most but it is definitely my worst symptom right now. Has anyone else experienced these extreme periods? Do you think it is a sign of me still being in the very early stages of recover or is it something that persistent for the whole recovery period?

[Kat66]

7 minutes ago, Jnthnslo said:

The only thing I do "feel" during these states is extreme irritability and anger which is very uncharacteristic for me. Luckily it only last for a few hours at most but it is definitely my worst symptom right now. Has anyone else experienced these extreme periods? Do you think it is a sign of me still being in the very early stages of recover or is it something that persistent for the whole recovery period?

I get extreme irritability and anger all the time along with anhedonia/emotional anesthesia. It's like the most horrible combination of symptoms wouldn't you agree? I can't comment with authority on whether this is a sign of still being in the early stages of recovery or whether it'll be persistent throughout the whole recovery period, other than to say I'm 4/5 months into reinstatement/withdrawal from CT so if that timeline resonates with you maybe it is a feature of this stage of recovery?

[Nic123]

5 hours ago, Jnthnslo said:

Does anyone else go through short periods where the emotional anesthesia becomes pretty extreme?

That’s what I was saying in my earlier comment. Absolutely am like this can go from periods of 80% numbness to complete numbness where I can literally stare at a wall

 

you guys are very lucky still having anger and irritability, I know I’m very damaged as I can’t even feel that. I couldn’t get angry even if i tried, that chemical reaction just won’t happen 

[Nic123]

Has Anyone heard of black seed oil? I Recently bought a bottle after hearing it’s amazing anti inflammatory effects for to treat my inflammaned heart condition. But just read something about its influences serotonin. I’m terrified of taking any “neuro altering” substances so no idea if I’m blowing it out of proportion or not as it does apparently have some amazing benefits. But I panicked once I read that and I already had taken 1.

[Kat66]

9 hours ago, Nic123 said:

That’s what I was saying in my earlier comment. Absolutely am like this can go from periods of 80% numbness to complete numbness where I can literally stare at a wall

 

you guys are very lucky still having anger and irritability, I know I’m very damaged as I can’t even feel that. I couldn’t get angry even if i tried, that chemical reaction just won’t happen 

I appreciate what you’re saying about being able to feel anger and irritability but trust me it’s not a nice feeling to be constantly having 😉

[Nic123]

13 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

I appreciate what you’re saying about being able to feel anger and irritability but trust me it’s not a nice feeling to be constantly having 😉

Yeah understand, it’s like grass is always greener type of thing 

[ChessieCat]

42 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

it’s not a nice feeling to be constantly having

 

29 minutes ago, Nic123 said:

it’s like grass is always greener type of thing 

 

One of the things that I have noticed since being a member here for 6 years is that members complain and say a symptom is the worst symptom and if they had a different one it would be easier.  However, when that worst symptom eases they then start posting that they now have a new worst symptom and some of them say that they wish they could go back the previous worst symptom.

 

I put it this way.  The current symptom that a person is dealing with is the worst because it is in the "now".

[Kat66]

9 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

I put it this way.  The current symptom that a person is dealing with is the worst because it is in the "now".

Very true

 

[Nic123]

This truly is unrelentless, I seem to have developed over the past couple months a compulsion to research and find an answer for all this when there really is non, same with obsessing over different changes in myself or things I'm noticing. I'm even terrified of taking healthy foods/supplements because I feel they make me worst when it just cant be possible. or i scrutinize the actions of these supplements and there effects on the body. When i research that a certain vitamin/food increases serotonin it freaks me out...

 

I'm just trying to find a way to cope as the emotional numbing is never ending... I'm starting to come to terms with i may be stick with it for decades.

[Jnthnslo]

I have seen people on here that have successfully recovered from other symptoms like depersonalization and brain zaps, but has anyone found any success stories for people like us experiencing the emotional anesthesia? It seems like those who get the emotional anesthesia are in it for the long haul and I haven't seen a lot of success stories for us. Again just looking for more hope.

 

I am definitely experiencing waves and windows but even during the good times it is not exactly gone, it is just not as intense. For me, it's almost like I never stopped taking the medication because I'm still getting dry mouth, have no anxiety, and some sexual side effects. The psychiatrists have all told me that it would go away once the drug completely cleared but there is no way it is still in my system after only taking 4 doses over 5 weeks ago.

[ThatOneGirlStitch]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:17 PM, Altostrata said:

From my experience, withdrawal-induced emotional anesthesia is more intense and complete than emotional numbing while taking a drug (in my case, paroxetine) or mere "depression".

Did you have any success with emotional anesthesia? Did it go away with time?

[ChessieCat]

19 minutes ago, ThatOneGirlStitch said:

Did you have any success with emotional anesthesia? Did it go away with time?

 

Altostrata has fully recovered.  Her Intro topic is here:

 

about-altostrata-11-years-of-protracted-antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by ChessieCat

[ThatOneGirlStitch]

Thank you, ChessieCat!